Who peaked higher in terms of hobby popularity? Mattingly or Canseco?

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

His best season by far was his third full season, his 40/40 season, the first year the A’s went to the WS and lost. The subsequent years saw a steady decline where he played an increasingly supporting role to Rickey, McGwire, Phillips and even the other Henderson. Those A’s teams were stacked. It’s all documented in BBRef. Jose broke down and only played 65 games the only year they won the WS, the year after his 40/40 PED season.

Jose peaked in only his third full season and saw a fairly steep decline as we all know, partially due to injuries likely the result of PEDs…but people still liked his personality.

I mean, he was great offensively in both 1990 and 1991, leading the league in home runs in 1991.

The A's were the coolest team in MLB in the late 80s and early 90s.

[eye4talent]

Originally Posted by larry25

.
It's called discussion bruh. And details like these can certainly inform the discussions of peaks. The reason Mattingly's best cards still sell for thousands and Jose's only for 100s is because Mattingly was solid for 13 years. He didn't peak and burn like Jose. He peaked for like a decade, and his cards are still peaking.

Beloved Yankee vs. reviled vagabond who’s basically the godfather of the steroid era.

Also, Mattingly was strong for six seasons, and truly outstanding for four. He had a couple of okay seasons later on, but he’s not highly collectible because of some prolonged domination.


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[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

I mean, he was great offensively in both 1990 and 1991, leading the league in home runs in 1991.

The A's were the coolest team in MLB in the late 80s and early 90s.

Yes, the A’s were definitely stacked but Jose wasn’t even the best offensive player on either the ‘90 nor ‘91 team.

[Sdog77]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Jose averaged maybe 100 games a year for more than an entire decade between 1992 and 2001

Mattingly’s seven year peak WAR = 35.7
Jose’s seven year peak WAR = 29.6

Mattingly black/gray ink = 23/111
Jose black/gray ink = 15/93

So indeed Mattingly had further to fall, but clearly Mattingly started from greater heights. They both had identical career bWAR despite playing Mattingly playing fewer seasons.

84-87 Mattingly stretch was hard to touch. Even for most HOF'ers. It's a shame he had that back issue. Always liked Mattingly and I'm an O's fan. I would have really liked to have seen him win a World Series, and I hope he at least gets to experience that as a manager. That might be what helps him "get in" eventually.

Canseco was no less feared by a pitcher in 2000 than he was in 88, and to your point, if you look at his stat lines from the 90's with only averaging 100 games a year makes his numbers look even more impressive (juice or not).

I also think Canseco had a few more years of production had he not been railroaded for calling out MLB turning a blind eye for profit. But thta's a convo for a different day.

Steep decline:
Mattingly? Yes (90 - 95 with a decent campaign in 93) You do want to see better offensive production from 1st base, however the GGs helped balance that
Canseco? No. Same 500ft. HR power at 36 yrs old that he had 10yrs prior and showed ability to steal bases at 34. Held a good average for an eliete power hitter in the mid-90's. Never had defense, so nothing to lose there LOL

Need a run in the 9th with runners on, who do I want at the plate? Mattingly.
Needing 2? Canseco

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Sdog77

Need a run in the 9th with runners on, who do I want at the plate? Mattingly.
Needing 2? Canseco

Mattingly’s peak/season’s best SLG% is still greater than Jose’s (99 GP min).

[Sdog77]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Mattingly’s peak/season’s best SLG% is still greater than Jose’s (99 GP min).

1 season. So you hope you get the Mattingly from 86 or 87 (with the 6 slams)

Canseco was basically the same hitter from 1986 - 2001, so take your pick which year and you get the same. Hence the whole point of no "steep decline".

And thats just my choice if I had both sitting on my bench in those situations.

[Retired hobbist]

Originally Posted by Sdog77

84-87 Mattingly stretch was hard to touch. Even for most HOF'ers. It's a shame he had that back issue. Always liked Mattingly and I'm an O's fan. I would have really liked to have seen him win a World Series, and I hope he at least gets to experience that as a manager. That might be what helps him "get in" eventually.

Canseco was no less feared by a pitcher in 2000 than he was in 88, and to your point, if you look at his stat lines from the 90's with only averaging 100 games a year makes his numbers look even more impressive (juice or not).

I also think Canseco had a few more years of production had he not been railroaded for calling out MLB turning a blind eye for profit. But thta's a convo for a different day.

Steep decline:
Mattingly? Yes (90 - 95 with a decent campaign in 93) You do want to see better offensive production from 1st base, however the GGs helped balance that
Canseco? No. Same 500ft. HR power at 36 yrs old that he had 10yrs prior and showed ability to steal bases at 34. Held a good average for an eliete power hitter in the mid-90's. Never had defense, so nothing to lose there LOL

Need a run in the 9th with runners on, who do I want at the plate? Mattingly.
Needing 2? Canseco

I do too as he easily had 50 home runs in him but he wasn't worth the problems he caused with his me first attitude and not listening to signs for shortening his swing in sacrifice situations.

Hearing Jose getting interviewed it sounded like Zsa Zsa Gabor talking on why she had no need to obey the rules of the road in the Greater Los Angeles area.

[larry25]

The only thing that Canseco had on Mattingly was that Rated Rookie logo on his Donruss rookie card. I'll take any of Mattingly's 1984, 1985, or 1986 seasons over Jose's 1988 any time. So long as you give me that glove, that leadership, and that sweet ass swing. Not to mention character! (Which is not to say that Jose wasn't a character, but you get me.)

[Sdog77]

Originally Posted by larry25

The only thing that Canseco had on Mattingly was that Rated Rookie logo on his Donruss rookie card. I'll take any of Mattingly's 1984, 1985, or 1986 seasons over Jose's 1988 any time. So long as you give me that glove, that leadership, and that sweet ass swing. Not to mention character! (Which is not to say that Jose wasn't a character, but you get me.)

Hard to argue there. Mattingly was a "complete" hitter in those years, and sorry to say that window was too short. A few more 20+ HR seasons at least in the 90's may have given him the nod.

Not being a "5 tool" didn't help either when you had the likes of Puckett, Rickey, Brett, Yount, Dawson, etc. before Griffey.

Power & Speed. That was the hot thing and that hasn't changed. Thats what Canseco had that Mattingly did not.

[larry25]

Originally Posted by Sdog77

Hard to argue there. Mattingly was a "complete" hitter in those years, and sorry to say that window was too short. A few more 20+ HR seasons at least in the 90's may have given him the nod.

Not being a "5 tool" didn't help either when you had the likes of Puckett, Rickey, Brett, Yount, Dawson, etc. before Griffey.

Power & Speed. That was the hot thing and that hasn't changed. Thats what Canseco had that Mattingly did not.

This is too true. And exactly along those lines, all I would add is that the power & speed need to be sustained. Hence the hobby not going totally head over heals for Acuna this season. Do it for another 5 to 10 years, not just one season or 2 or even 3 or 4, and then you are in elite company.

[Sdog77]

Originally Posted by larry25

This is too true. And exactly along those lines, all I would add is that the power & speed need to be sustained. Hence the hobby not going totally head over heals for Acuna this season. Do it for another 5 to 10 years, not just one season or 2 or even 3 or 4, and then you are in elite company.

Agreed!

[oplum29]

Originally Posted by pewe

Wow! What made him so huge???


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[pewe]

Originally Posted by Sdog77

Hard to argue there. Mattingly was a "complete" hitter in those years, and sorry to say that window was too short. A few more 20+ HR seasons at least in the 90's may have given him the nod.

Not being a "5 tool" didn't help either when you had the likes of Puckett, Rickey, Brett, Yount, Dawson, etc. before Griffey.

Power & Speed. That was the hot thing and that hasn't changed. Thats what Canseco had that Mattingly did not.

Wait… is power + speed “5-tool”? That sounds like a 2-tool player


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[Sdog77]

Originally Posted by pewe

Wait… is power + speed “5-tool”? That sounds like a 2-tool player


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No, Canseco didn't have the fielding aspect and was maybe a "C" for average. 3/5 I'd say (Arm wasn't bad unless he pitched LOL)

You are missing the comparison I made to the 5 tool palyers that were in the league at the time a few posts above. My point was that Mattingly was not a 5 tool, unlike the talented peers had in the mid-late 80's.

But in general, to be "hobby popular", history tells us Power and Speed are higly sought after, which Canseco did have, and Mattingly did not which contributed to the orginal topic.

[pewe]

Originally Posted by Sdog77

No, Canseco didn't have the fielding aspect and was maybe a "C" for average. 3/5 I'd say (Arm wasn't bad unless he pitched LOL)

You are missing the comparison I made to the 5 tool palyers that were in the league at the time a few posts above. My point was that Mattingly was not a 5 tool, unlike the talented peers had in the mid-late 80's.

But in general, to be "hobby popular", history tells us Power and Speed are higly sought after, which Canseco did have, and Mattingly did not which contributed to the orginal topic.

It is funny this set of people who find Power + Speed to be a sought after combo. I find power + low k%/high OBP to be much more impressive (and very valuable!). Or high value offense/power + defense.

I wonder if it is a legacy holdover from earlier generations of baseball, where power hitters were one dimensional and slow. Which isn’t very true in contemporary baseball - speed and power are a natural combo, and common now.


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[Sdog77]

Originally Posted by pewe

It is funny this set of people who find Power + Speed to be a sought after combo. I find power + low k%/high OBP to be much more impressive (and very valuable!). Or high value offense/power + defense.


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Buy "this set of people" you are referring to hobby consensus. You are aware of that right?

If you are trying to make an argument, I won't argue with you on this because I don't necessarily agree with it either, but there is no doubt, hitting home runs and stealing bags is sexy. Sexy sells cards. That is what the hobby has proven to like, regardless of weather it should or not.

[pewe]

Originally Posted by Sdog77

Buy "this set of people" you are referring to hobby consensus. You are aware of that right?

If you are trying to make an argument, I won't argue with you on this because I don't necessarily agree with it either, but there is no doubt, hitting home runs and stealing bags is sexy. Sexy sells cards. That is what the hobby has proven to like, regardless of weather it should or not.

And we could even add commentary that without something more than speed and power it seems like players aren’t very attractive. And that seems to be similar from a hobby perspective. See Alfonso Soriano

Given it’s so much easier to steal bases now, I anticipate this will become an even larger issue going forward. Just looking for speed and power may lead to ”investors” down a path that is less interesting than they first hoped.


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[ReggieBush22]

Originally Posted by Sdog77

84-87 Mattingly stretch was hard to touch. Even for most HOF'ers. It's a shame he had that back issue. Always liked Mattingly and I'm an O's fan. I would have really liked to have seen him win a World Series, and I hope he at least gets to experience that as a manager. That might be what helps him "get in" eventually.

Canseco was no less feared by a pitcher in 2000 than he was in 88, and to your point, if you look at his stat lines from the 90's with only averaging 100 games a year makes his numbers look even more impressive (juice or not).

I also think Canseco had a few more years of production had he not been railroaded for calling out MLB turning a blind eye for profit. But thta's a convo for a different day.

Steep decline:
Mattingly? Yes (90 - 95 with a decent campaign in 93) You do want to see better offensive production from 1st base, however the GGs helped balance that
Canseco? No. Same 500ft. HR power at 36 yrs old that he had 10yrs prior and showed ability to steal bases at 34. Held a good average for an eliete power hitter in the mid-90's. Never had defense, so nothing to lose there LOL

Need a run in the 9th with runners on, who do I want at the plate? Mattingly.
Needing 2? Canseco

Mattingly's peak was Godly. Still remember as a kid, looking at his stats on the back of his cards and being amazed.

1984 - 1987:

.337/.381/.560

30 HR, 121 RBI, 210 H, 46 2B, 102 R

[ReggieBush22]

Originally Posted by larry25

Say what #alternatefacts!? Donnie was an almost perennial GG winner and .300 hitter until he was forced to retire early because of his back... after **13** solid seasons. He's a borderline HOFer for Pete's sake. Jose had like 1 or 2 good seasons, on the juice.

Good God man, can you at least TRY to be objective?

Canseco had 462 HR and if it wasn't for constant injuries, he would've easily surpassed 500 HR. You don't get to that with "1 or 2 good seasons."

[Sdog77]

Originally Posted by ReggieBush22

Mattingly's peak was Godly. Still remember as a kid, looking at his stats on the back of his cards and being amazed.

1984 - 1987:

.337/.381/.560

30 HR, 121 RBI, 210 H, 46 2B, 102 R

Take a look at how low his stikeout rate was too while putting up those numbers. Just incredible!

[larry25]

Originally Posted by ReggieBush22

Good God man, can you at least TRY to be objective?

Canseco had 462 HR and if it wasn't for constant injuries, he would've easily surpassed 500 HR. You don't get to that with "1 or 2 good seasons."

Honestly, okay. I actually didn't know he had that many career knocks, and now I do. Thanks! But since you already nailed me on my bias, let's not forget how beautiful Donnie's swing was... except for the fact that he seemed to change his stance every few months, LOL. But when he uncorked, mannnn.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by ReggieBush22

Good God man, can you at least TRY to be objective?

Canseco had 462 HR and if it wasn't for constant injuries, he would've easily surpassed 500 HR. You don't get to that with "1 or 2 good seasons."

If he wasn’t juiced he wouldn’t have hit even half that amount and would’ve been out injured even more than he was. Must look at both sides of that coin.

[oplum29]

Originally Posted by ReggieBush22

Good God man, can you at least TRY to be objective?

Canseco had 462 HR and if it wasn't for constant injuries, he would've easily surpassed 500 HR. You don't get to that with "1 or 2 good seasons."

Canseco was THE MAN back in the day. think JimmyG good looking, but he won a couple of MVPs, was the first 40/40 man, and won a World Series with Oakland.

it was Canseco, and then everybody else. that trade to Texas ruined him. it was depressing to see how crazy good he was to the shell of himself that he became later on, bouncing from team to team.

he did so much for the game of baseball, and was a pop culture icon. everybody knew who Jose Canseco was back in the day. you cannot say the same about a lot of players in today's game, not even the best ones.

[Retired hobbist]

Originally Posted by oplum29

Canseco was THE MAN back in the day. think JimmyG good looking, but he won a couple of MVPs, was the first 40/40 man, and won a World Series with Oakland.

it was Canseco, and then everybody else. that trade to Texas ruined him. it was depressing to see how crazy good he was to the shell of himself that he became later on, bouncing from team to team.

he did so much for the game of baseball, and was a pop culture icon. everybody knew who Jose Canseco was back in the day. you cannot say the same about a lot of players in today's game, not even the best ones.

There were incidents that were captured with highlight shows where Larussa and Canseco got into arguments about Jose not listening and his play was starting to slip so he had to go to preserve clubhouse tranquility.

I remember around the trade watching a sports highlight show and seeing Larussa sending Jose to the bench and Jose hitting the clubhouse/ showers in the middle of the game.

[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

If he wasn’t juiced he wouldn’t have hit even half that amount and would’ve been out injured even more than he was. Must look at both sides of that coin.

I see …….