Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by jjohnson814

Phew!! Lol

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

i will update again tomorrow!!!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by dream34

This is a very huge misconception of MJ's run. Not once did MJ ever have a disadvantage in HOFers on his team compared to his competition in the Finals. During MJ's 6 title run he faced a total of 9 HOFers (counting Stockton and Malone x2). That's 1.5 HOFers per title.

Lebron's faced at least 9 (and possibly 10) in JUST his 3 title wins. But he is not the only one, in fact that is more often than not the norm. Most of the all-time greats had to play against each other & their super teams.

Of the 10 All-Time Greats (Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Lebron, Kareem, KD, Duncan, Shaq & Kobe), MJ never had to play any of the 10 in their Prime (and this is VERY important). ALL 10 had to play each other in the Finals! (Duncan v Shaq/Kobe in West Finals). MJ never faced a team with 3 HOFers in the Finals, 9 of the 10 others did! This is not an "era" thing either! These players played in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 00's, 10's. Just missed the 90's! As much as the East has been historically weak for periods of Lebrons career (not his fault), I believe MJ's Finals path has also been without match historically weak also? (again, not his fault).

To compare another player to MJ by resume is just impossible because really no other player has faced that level of competition. He was incredible and shouldn’t be dinged for the competition, but I’m sure if you slide in a few other All-Time Greats in their prime (Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Lebron, Kareem, KD, Duncan, Shaq & Kobe) in place of MJ in the above equation many of them come up with 4 or 5 titles and I’m very confident 1 or 2 (if not more) walk away with 6 also. Conversely, I think outside of incredible MJ diehards no reasonable person actually thinks MJ would go 9 for 9 replacing Lebron & facing his slate of Finals opponents.

Michael Jordan had to beat Magic Johnson to win his first title. Magic Johnson finished 2nd in the MVP voting that season. LeBron has never beat a top 10 player in his prime to win a championship.

[tperks76]

Originally Posted by rats60

Michael Jordan had to beat Magic Johnson to win his first title. Magic Johnson finished 2nd in the MVP voting that season. LeBron has never beat a top 10 player in his prime to win a championship.

Steph Curry isn’t a top 10 player? A 73 win Warriors team that Curry I believe was MVP that year, or maybe you’re referring to all-time, which I’d consider Tim duncan a top 10 player all time, arguably the greatest power forward of all-time

[Dnic]

Originally Posted by rats60

Michael Jordan had to beat Magic Johnson to win his first title. Magic Johnson finished 2nd in the MVP voting that season. LeBron has never beat a top 10 player in his prime to win a championship.

Last time I checked "teams" win championships this isn't mma where one person can win it all. And for as great as MJ was even he couldn't make this sad group of Cavs players champions

[exitmusicblue]

So 188 and counting believe he’s #3 to infinity.

BO is not exactly known for its genius members, but I’ll take it. Top 10 all-time for me, top 5 in the past decade.

[thepinoymamba]

Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Lew Alcindor
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Lebron James

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[dream34]

Originally Posted by rats60

Michael Jordan had to beat Magic Johnson to win his first title. Magic Johnson finished 2nd in the MVP voting that season. LeBron has never beat a top 10 player in his prime to win a championship.

And this is the main point and misconception of MJ. It's not that Lebron has never beat a top 10 player (Extremely debatable), it's that he as well as most all the other greats have Finals losses and blemishes because of these other great players and more importantly TEAMS.

Half the battle is always the competition, and competition is never constant.

MJ WAS NEVER AT A HOFer DISADVANTAGE IN ANY FINALS APPEARANCE. 2 vs 2 (1991), 2 vs 1 (1992), 2 vs 1 (1993), 3 vs 1 (1996), 3 vs 2 (1997, 1998). You can make a very good case that he went up against great HOF coaches and that should matter, but he always had Phil on his side too.

Let's put his team on the side and just focus on the competition - He faced 9 HOFers in 6 Finals, this is a such a ridiculously HUGE anomaly in NBA history!

[Noah]

Originally Posted by dream34

and this is the main point and misconception of mj. It's not that lebron has never beat at top 10 player (extremely debatable), it's that he as well as most all the other greats have finals losses and blemishes because of these other great players and more importantly teams.

Half the battle is always the competition, and competition is never constant.

Mj was never at a hofer disadvantage in any finals appearance. 2 vs 2 (1991), 2 vs 1 (1992), 2 vs 1 (1993), 3 vs 1 (1996), 3 vs 2 (1997, 1998). You can make a very good case that he went up against great hof coaches and that should matter, but he always had phil on his side too.

Let's put his team on the side and just focus on the competition - he faced 9 hofers in 6 finals, this is a such a ridiculously huge anomaly in nba history!

mj was never at a disadvantage because he was freaking mj

[Noah]

Originally Posted by dream34

And this is the main point and misconception of MJ. It's not that Lebron has never beat at top 10 player (Extremely debatable), it's that he as well as most all the other greats have Finals losses and blemishes because of these other great players and more importantly TEAMS.

Half the battle is always the competition, and competition is never constant.

MJ WAS NEVER AT A HOFer DISADVANTAGE IN ANY FINALS APPEARANCE. 2 vs 2 (1991), 2 vs 1 (1992), 2 vs 1 (1993), 3 vs 1 (1996), 3 vs 2 (1997, 1998). You can make a very good case that he went up against great HOF coaches and that should matter, but he always had Phil on his side too.

Let's put his team on the side and just focus on the competition - He faced 9 HOFers in 6 Finals, this is a such a ridiculously HUGE anomaly in NBA history!

Also lebron going through multiple teams in the east with zero hall of famers and making it to the finals to lose is not something to hang your hat on

Lebron went through pacers 0 hof, raptors 0 hof, Celtics 0 hof. Meets hall of famers on the warriors and loses

I’ll pick Jordan’s 1991 path

Jordan goes through Ewing top 50 all time, Barkley top 50 all time, isiah top 50,Rodman top 50, dumars hall of fame just to get to face magic top 50, worthy top 50.

After all that competition Jordan and his 1 hall of fame teammate got rings for the first time

[robert0629]

As I mentioned in a previous post, Basketball Reference gives a Hall of Fame probability percentage that is based on the statistics and accomplishments that Hall of Fame voters believe are the most important for a player. I came up with a list for both Jordan and LeBron of teammates that each player had during their trips to the Finals just to see how much help they each had. This doesn't mean that I believe one player is more valuable or more worthy of being in the HOF than another. After each player I put the percentage of them making the Hall of Fame based on the number Basketball Reference came up with. I'm not trying to prove anything with this, so take it for what it's worth.

Jordan:

Scottie Pippen 99.90% (Already elected)
Dennis Rodman 75.32% (Already elected)
Horace Grant 15.16%
Ron Harper 7.04%

LeBron:

Dwyane Wade 100%
Ray Allen 99.87% (Already elected)
Chris Bosh 99.51%
Kevin Love 67.58%
Kyrie Irving 36.41%

Allen only played with LeBron the final two years of his career when he was past the age of 37, and of course Kyrie and Love were injured in the Finals his first year back with the Cavs. But it still looks like LeBron had more help than some posters on here are willing to admit. Kyrie's percentage should of course go up if he stays healthy and continues to play at a high level.

Here is a list of players who Jordan and the Bulls defeated in the Finals and their Hall of Fame probability percentages:

Magic Johnson 100% (Already elected)
Karl Malone 100% (Already elected)
John Stockton 100% (Already elected)
Charles Barkley 99.99% (Already elected)
Gary Payton 99.94% (Already elected)
Clyde Drexler 99.78% (Already elected)
James Worthy 90.77% (Already elected)
Shawn Kemp 38.45%
Kevin Johnson 19.05%

Here is a list of players who LeBron and the Heat or Cavs defeated in the Finals and their Hall of Fame probability percentages:

Tim Duncan 100%
Kevin Durant 99.97%
Stephen Curry 99.13%
Russell Westbrook 99.05%
James Harden 97.85%
Tony Parker 93.86%
Manu Ginobili 20.05%
Draymond Green 14.34%
Klay Thompson 12.78%
Kawhi Leonard 6.33%

As you can see from these numbers both Jordan and LeBron faced some great players. But I don't see why some posters are overrating some of LeBron's opponents. Ginobili based solely on his NBA career isn't a Hall of Famer. He will of course get in based on his International career. And I don't believe that either Klay or Green would be Hall of Famers had they not been drafted by the Warriors. Sure they're good players in that Warriors system, but if they had ended up on different teams I doubt they have Hall of Fame careers. They'll both probably make it because of the Warriors team success. Kawhi will most likely be a Hall of Famer if he can get healthy and get his career back on track. I believe he's a great player and a true Hall of Fame talent, but he obviously has some work to do to get his percentage up.

I would also like to point out that two of Jordan's Bulls opponents in the Finals, Shawn Kemp and Kevin Johnson, were players that many thought would one day be headed to the HOF. Kemp was a complete stud at one point. He made six straight All-Star games in the mid 90's. Unfortunately, when he went to the Cavs he got lazy and gained some weight and of course substance abuse became a problem. For KJ it was a hernia that limited him for the last five or six years of his career. But he ended his career with averages of 17.9 PPG on 49.3% shooting, 9.1 APG, and a 20.7 career PER.

[majestik101]

[dream34]

Originally Posted by robert0629

As I mentioned in a previous post, Basketball Reference gives a Hall of Fame probability percentage that is based on the statistics and accomplishments that Hall of Fame voters believe are the most important for a player. I came up with a list for both Jordan and LeBron of teammates that each player had during their trips to the Finals just to see how much help they each had. This doesn't mean that I believe one player is more valuable or more worthy of being in the HOF than another. After each player I put the percentage of them making the Hall of Fame based on the number Basketball Reference came up with. I'm not trying to prove anything with this, so take it for what it's worth.

Jordan:

Scottie Pippen 99.90% (Already elected)
Dennis Rodman 75.32% (Already elected)
Horace Grant 15.16%
Ron Harper 7.04%

LeBron:

Dwyane Wade 100%
Ray Allen 99.87% (Already elected)
Chris Bosh 99.51%
Kevin Love 67.58%
Kyrie Irving 36.41%

Allen only played with LeBron the final two years of his career when he was past the age of 37, and of course Kyrie and Love were injured in the Finals his first year back with the Cavs. But it still looks like LeBron had more help than some posters on here are willing to admit. Kyrie's percentage should of course go up if he stays healthy and continues to play at a high level.

Here is a list of players who Jordan and the Bulls faced in the Finals and their Hall of Fame probability percentages:

Magic Johnson 100% (Already elected)
Karl Malone 100% (Already elected)
John Stockton 100% (Already elected)
Charles Barkley 99.99% (Already elected)
Gary Payton 99.94% (Already elected)
Clyde Drexler 99.78% (Already elected)
James Worthy 90.77% (Already elected)
Shawn Kemp 38.45%
Kevin Johnson 19.05%

Here is a list of players who LeBron and the Heat or Cavs faced in the Finals and their Hall of Fame probability percentages:

Tim Duncan 100%
Kevin Durant 99.97%
Stephen Curry 99.13%
Russell Westbrook 99.05%
James Harden 97.85%
Tony Parker 93.86%
Manu Ginobili 20.05%
Draymond Green 14.34%
Klay Thompson 12.78%
Kawhi Leonard 6.33%

As you can see from these numbers both Jordan and LeBron faced some great players. But I don't see why some posters are overrating some of LeBron's opponents. Ginobili based solely on his NBA career isn't a Hall of Famer. He will of course get in based on his International career. And I don't believe that either Klay or Green would be Hall of Famers had they not been drafted by the Warriors. Sure they're good players in that Warriors system, but if they had ended up on different teams I doubt they have Hall of Fame careers. They'll both probably make it because of the Warriors team success. Kawhi will most likely be a Hall of Famer if he can get healthy and get his career back on track. I believe he's a great player and a true Hall of Fame talent, but he obviously has some work to do to get his percentage up.

I would also like to point out that two of Jordan's Bulls opponents in the Finals, Shawn Kemp and Kevin Johnson, were players that many thought would one day be headed to the HOF. Kemp was a complete stud at one point. He made six straight All-Star games in the mid 90's. Unfortunately, when he went to the Cavs he got lazy and gained some weight and of course substance abuse became a problem. For KJ it was a hernia that limited him for the last five or six years of his career. But he ended his career with averages of 17.9 PPG on 49.3% shooting, 9.1 APG, and a 20.7 career PER.

This is great info! A lot that can be taken from it (with the right context). Noticed that Dirk is missing from list of Lebron's opponents. Also probably important to note that MJ faced 5 unique teams whereas Lebron has faced 4 unique teams, so even though more Finals appearances there are actually less names to pull from Lebron opponents than MJ. I think Manu's #'s are skewed because he came off the bench most of his career? Agree on KJ & Kemp being key pieces, though I personally would take Ginobili over KJ. Would be interesting to see what Magic and Wilt's list looks like.

Ton of great info in your post. Thanks for sharing it.

[dream34]

Originally Posted by Noah

Also lebron going through multiple teams in the east with zero hall of famers and making it to the finals to lose is not something to hang your hat on

Lebron went through pacers 0 hof, raptors 0 hof, Celtics 0 hof. Meets hall of famers on the warriors and loses

I’ll pick Jordan’s 1991 path

Jordan goes through Ewing top 50 all time, Barkley top 50 all time, isiah top 50,Rodman top 50, dumars hall of fame just to get to face magic top 50, worthy top 50.

After all that competition Jordan and his 1 hall of fame teammate got rings for the first time

'91 was the best year you could come up with right? Not surprised, for all that MJ's legacy is romanticized, when you actually go back and look at his runs to titles there really isn't much there. I just looked them up myself and there are just some really subpar opponents in there that somehow get exempted as we bash other players "historically weak" conferences. Apparently beating Patrick Ewing every year with Scottie Pippen on your team is a major accomplishment. Love that you added Rodman on as a Top 50 guy also, most MJ fans don't for obvious reasons.

Beating the Pistons was great no doubt in '91, but beating the Knicks (1 HOF), 76ers (1 HOF) & Lakers (2 HOF - but some would argue aging and distracted). If THAT is his best competition MJ ever faced enroute to a title, I feel bad for Magic & Larry and all they had to go through to get theirs.

[bootan]

Originally Posted by dream34

'91 was the best year you could come up with right? Not surprised, for all that MJ's legacy is romanticized, when you actually go back and look at his runs to titles there really isn't much there. I just looked them up myself and there are just some really subpar opponents in there that somehow get exempted as we bash other players "historically weak" conferences. Apparently beating Patrick Ewing every year with Scottie Pippen on your team is a major accomplishment. Love that you added Rodman on as a Top 50 guy also, most MJ fans don't for obvious reasons.

Beating the Pistons was great no doubt in '91, but beating the Knicks (1 HOF), 76ers (1 HOF) & Lakers (2 HOF - but some would argue aging and distracted). If THAT is his best competition MJ ever faced enroute to a title, I feel bad for Magic & Larry and all they had to go through to get theirs.

I love this one. Calling Magic ageing in 1991. He was 31 yrs old and was the reigning MVP the last 2 years (1989 & 1990).

Oh and James Worthy was 30 lol

Only Lebron fans call a 31yo reigning 2-time MVP ageing

[Noah]

Originally Posted by dream34

'91 was the best year you could come up with right? Not surprised, for all that MJ's legacy is romanticized, when you actually go back and look at his runs to titles there really isn't much there. I just looked them up myself and there are just some really subpar opponents in there that somehow get exempted as we bash other players "historically weak" conferences. Apparently beating Patrick Ewing every year with Scottie Pippen on your team is a major accomplishment. Love that you added Rodman on as a Top 50 guy also, most MJ fans don't for obvious reasons.

Beating the Pistons was great no doubt in '91, but beating the Knicks (1 HOF), 76ers (1 HOF) & Lakers (2 HOF - but some would argue aging and distracted). If THAT is his best competition MJ ever faced enroute to a title, I feel bad for Magic & Larry and all they had to go through to get theirs.

91 was Jordan’s 1st ring is why I picked it and u brought it up saying 2vs2, I would argue a 4th season pippen that was averaging 8ppg, 14ppg, 16ppg and then 18ppg wasn’t on his way to the hall of fame. I put that there since to all lebron lovers pippen was a stud that was way more help than bosh, wade, Allen or kyrie and love

Jordan early on was beating veteran hall of famers and sweeping most with a 4th year pippen and nameless phil Jackson

I’m not digging up a list but I’m pretty sure Dominique, hardaway, Alonzo, Larry Johnson, Bruce Bowen, mutombo, penny, Reggie miler, Ewing multiple times have all fallen to Jordan and pippen, and Rodman for 3 years.

Even the 2nd list of names from 92-98 include arguably 6 more nba top 50 so include them with the other list and Jordan beat what 11 Of the top 50 ever just in the eastern conference and probably 20+ hall of famers.

That’s a tough one but to some lebron beating a victor oladipo pacers team in 7 games, or a Celtics team in 7 games with a rookie being their leading scorer is the greatest thing they’ve ever seen and Jordan bouncing top 50 all time and hall of fame vets in their prime usually in sweeping fashion was nothing

I’m not looking up lebron because most of his opponents are still in the league but the only competition I know are locks are that Celtics team with kg, pp, Ray

You can feel bad for bird and magic, but don’t feel good about lebron beating Gilbert arenas, lance Stephenson, oladipo, jameer Nelson, terry rozier, Kyle Lowry, injured bulls team that was lead by Nate Robinson, injured wizards team, year after year like he is killing some major players and or teams

Not lebrons fault———- best in the game——-

And to the people saying lebron has to play against mvps in the finals. Jordan was the league mvp 5 out of 6 times and the 6th time he beat the league mvp Malone.

So if lebron can win some more mvps like mike did, he wouldn’t have to face mvps in the finals

[dream34]

Originally Posted by bootan

I love this one. Calling Magic ageing in 1991. He was 31 yrs old and was the reigning MVP the last 2 years (1989 & 1990).

Oh and James Worthy was 30 lol

Only Lebron fans call a 31yo reigning 2-time MVP ageing

Kidding right? Magic would 5 months later make his HIV announcement and Worthy had arguably his worse season of his career in 90-91 and worse in 91-92, then worse in 92-93, then worse in 93-94 and then retirement. This was not Prime Magic & Worthy by any stretch of the imagination. Yes, still great players but not All-Time Great. Not at all saying they are bums (They made it to the Finals! of course they are good!), but definitely nowhere near their peak.

[bootan]

Originally Posted by dream34

Kidding right? Magic would 5 months later make his HIV announcement and Worthy had arguably his worse season of his career in 90-91 and worse in 91-92, then worse in 92-93, then worse in 93-94 and then retirement. This was not Prime Magic & Worthy by any stretch of the imagination. Yes, still great players but not All-Time Great. Not at all saying they are bums (They made it to the Finals! of course they are good!), but definitely nowhere near their peak.

If by worst season of his career you mean his highest ever point average in a season then yeah he was past his peak............lol he averaged 21.4ppg (his highest for any season in his career), he was also an all-star in 91 and the next year also. He also had all-nba team honours in 91.

Magic was averaging 19.4ppg, 12.5apg, and 7rpg. He also was all-nba first team in that year too.

but keep thinking what you want

[dream34]

Originally Posted by bootan

If by worst season of his career you mean his highest ever point average in a season then yeah he was past his peak............lol he averaged 21.4ppg (his highest for any season in his career), he was also an all-star in 91 and the next year also. He also had all-nba team honours in 91.

Magic was averaging 19.4ppg, 12.5apg, and 7rpg. He also was all-nba first team in that year too.

but keep thinking what you want

So PEAK Magic & Worthy to you right?

You state ppg but what about any of Worthy's other stats that year? Career lows in almost everything else (most importantly FG% & Rebounds). Of course he made All-NBA and All-Star, because Points! Yay! And to what we are talking about a steady decline towards the latter part of the 90-91 season that continued into the playoffs and fell off a cliff the following season. Take a look at his advanced stats (WS, VORP) and it does not paint a nice pic for Worthy from the beginning of the 90-91 season on. Not saying that he was a bum, just that a reasonable argument could be made that Worthy was on the decline.

I did not say they were not good that year (again they made the Finals!), simply stated an argument could be made and I've heard it that they were not at their peak and they were on the decline (Worthy) or distracted (Magic), but you think they were Prime Magic & Worthy right?


Anyway, letting this go a bit too far. And see your point that maybe Magic/Worthy in '90-91 were top level players on par with what is the norm (not every year, but in general) of stacked opponents that most face in the Finals. Honestly still feel that MJ's entire Finals slate was on the much easier side, but that's obviously an opinion (though if only counting HOFers a fact). I will let the debate rage on here, but just wanted to add my 2 pennies.

[corndog]

I have always been against calling current players "GOAT" but can't deny that Lebron is without a doubt the best overall player to ever pick up a basketball.

Better than Jordan.

And I am not a Lebron fan.

[6celtics33]

Dream.... I know you guys like to praise Golden State so much so like I posted earlier if you wipe them from Lebron’s history he’s still

11-16 in the Finals against the Spurs, Mavs, and Thunder

So it’s not just this Super Duper Team that’s nade him a losing player

He’s had other chances

He’s just a loser

Sure he’s won some but lottery teams win some and I wouldn’t call them winners either

He’s the Wilt of our generation

Great numbers though

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by dream34

Kidding right? Magic would 5 months later make his HIV announcement and Worthy had arguably his worse season of his career in 90-91 and worse in 91-92, then worse in 92-93, then worse in 93-94 and then retirement. This was not Prime Magic & Worthy by any stretch of the imagination. Yes, still great players but not All-Time Great. Not at all saying they are bums (They made it to the Finals! of course they are good!), but definitely nowhere near their peak.

What does his HIV announcement matter? You realize you can still be a high level athlete with HIV. HIV does not and did not mean you were dying. The guy was playing at a newar MVP level and still averaging close to 20/13/7. He was 31 years old and would have had several prime seasons left had people been more educated about the disease he had back then.

Worthy was 29-30 that season, still very much in his “prime”. SAdly his numbers dropped off after due to injuries. They also had Divac, Byron Scott, Sam Perkins and one of the best coaches of all time in Pat Riley. Worthy and Magic were far closer to their primes than Duncan, Manu and Parker were when they lost to what many posters here want people to believe was Lebron and a bunch of nobodies down in Miami lol.

[Round Mound]

Originally Posted by GC1980

HIV does not and did not mean you were dying.

A bit off topic, but yeah, back in 1992, it meant you were probably dying....

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by Round Mound

A bit off topic, but yeah, back in 1992, it meant you were probably dying....

Did it? Because I’m fairly certain Magic Johnson played the Olympic s and the following all star game just fine. He also came back and while a bit older and fatter he was still very serviceable. He’s also very much alive so while public perception was what you stated I wouldn’t say him announcing he had HIV 5 months later is any grounds for diminishing the player he was in the 90-91 season.

[robert0629]

Originally Posted by dream34

This is great info! A lot that can be taken from it (with the right context). Noticed that Dirk is missing from list of Lebron's opponents. Also probably important to note that MJ faced 5 unique teams whereas Lebron has faced 4 unique teams, so even though more Finals appearances there are actually less names to pull from Lebron opponents than MJ. I think Manu's #'s are skewed because he came off the bench most of his career? Agree on KJ & Kemp being key pieces, though I personally would take Ginobili over KJ. Would be interesting to see what Magic and Wilt's list looks like.

Ton of great info in your post. Thanks for sharing it.

You're correct about Nowitzki. I meant to put opponents that both Jordan and LeBron defeated. Since he didn't defeat him I excluded him. I also excluded Kidd. I'll change it. Thanks.

[Round Mound]

I never said anything about his athletic habilities, although treatment could have made things more difficult for him to perform. But back then, being HIV positive did not give good prospects to live past 5-10 years.