Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?

[rj.cataldo]

Originally Posted by tperks76

In terms of Playoff appearances then, outside of Lebrons first playoff appearance, like Jordans, he's only been knocked out once, in his first season by a team that didn't go on to do the same, either win the East, or the title, and in fact only 2 times in his career did Lebron get knocked out by a team that didn't go on to win the NBA title

I assume you meant only two OTHER times? Because 05-06 Pistons, 08-09 Magic, and 09-10 Celtics didn’t win the NBA finals. Regardless, my post wasn’t to claim that Lebron only lost to bums. In fact I don’t think I said Lebron didn’t accomplish what you said. Only that a.) Jordan did not miss the playoffs his first two years, and b.) Jordan’s first round and/or pre-finals playoff exits, which seem to be a go to “pro James” arguments, were all against high-quality opponents with multiple HOFers and top 50 caliber players.


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[tperks76]

Originally Posted by rj.cataldo

I assume you meant only two OTHER times? Because 05-06 Pistons, 08-09 Magic, and 09-10 Celtics didn’t win the NBA finals. Regardless, my post wasn’t to claim that Lebron only lost to bums. In fact I don’t think I said Lebron didn’t accomplish what you said. Only that a.) Jordan did not miss the playoffs his first two years, and b.) Jordan’s first round and/or pre-finals playoff exits, which seem to be a go to “pro James” arguments, were all against high-quality opponents with multiple HOFers and top 50 caliber players.


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That's the same arguement Lebron fans have as well to the teams he's lost against. He's lost to a lot of guys that are probably going to go on to be hall of famers as well. Boston had Garnett, Pierce, Ray Allen. Mavs Nowitzki, Kidd, Marion maybe. Spurs Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, Kawhi. Golden State Durant, Curry, Thompson, Draymond. I'm not saying all of those guys are sure bets, most of them have long careers in front of them still so anything can happen. When you are looking back at the past, it's easy to point out the Hall of Famers because they're already there. It's not like he's playing against a bunch of bums in this era. Both Lebron and Jordan have beaten, and been beaten by a lot of hall of famers. For any arguement, there's a counter arguement for it. It's all a matter of opinion. Mine, Lebron is the greatest all around player of all time, Jordan is the greatest clutch scorer of all time. I don't think you could go wrong by starting your franchise with either of them

[dream34]

Originally Posted by tperks76

That's the same arguement Lebron fans have as well to the teams he's lost against. He's lost to a lot of guys that are probably going to go on to be hall of famers as well. Boston had Garnett, Pierce, Ray Allen. Mavs Nowitzki, Kidd, Marion maybe. Spurs Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, Kawhi. Golden State Durant, Curry, Thompson, Draymond. I'm not saying all of those guys are sure bets, most of them have long careers in front of them still so anything can happen. When you are looking back at the past, it's easy to point out the Hall of Famers because they're already there. It's not like he's playing against a bunch of bums in this era. Both Lebron and Jordan have beaten, and been beaten by a lot of hall of famers. For any arguement, there's a counter arguement for it. It's all a matter of opinion. Mine, Lebron is the greatest all around player of all time, Jordan is the greatest clutch scorer of all time. I don't think you could go wrong by starting your franchise with either of them

This is a very huge misconception of MJ's run. Not once did MJ ever have a disadvantage in HOFers on his team compared to his competition in the Finals. During MJ's 6 title run he faced a total of 9 HOFers (counting Stockton and Malone x2). That's 1.5 HOFers per title.

Lebron's faced at least 9 (and possibly 10) in JUST his 3 title wins. But he is not the only one, in fact that is more often than not the norm. Most of the all-time greats had to play against each other & their super teams.

Of the 10 All-Time Greats (Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Lebron, Kareem, KD, Duncan, Shaq & Kobe), MJ never had to play any of the 10 in their Prime (and this is VERY important). ALL 10 had to play each other in the Finals! (Duncan v Shaq/Kobe in West Finals). MJ never faced a team with 3 HOFers in the Finals, 9 of the 10 others did! This is not an "era" thing either! These players played in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 00's, 10's. Just missed the 90's! As much as the East has been historically weak for periods of Lebrons career (not his fault), I believe MJ's Finals path has also been without match historically weak also? (again, not his fault).

To compare another player to MJ by resume is just impossible because really no other player has faced that level of competition. He was incredible and shouldn’t be dinged for the competition, but I’m sure if you slide in a few other All-Time Greats in their prime (Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Lebron, Kareem, KD, Duncan, Shaq & Kobe) in place of MJ in the above equation many of them come up with 4 or 5 titles and I’m very confident 1 or 2 (if not more) walk away with 6 also. Conversely, I think outside of incredible MJ diehards no reasonable person actually thinks MJ would go 9 for 9 replacing Lebron & facing his slate of Finals opponents.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by dream34

This is a very huge misconception of MJ's run. Not once did MJ ever have a disadvantage in HOFers on his team compared to his competition in the Finals. During MJ's 6 title run he faced a total of 9 HOFers (counting Stockton and Malone x2). That's 1.5 HOFers per title.

Lebron's faced at least 9 (and possibly 10) in JUST his 3 title wins. But he is not the only one, in fact that is more often than not the norm. Most of the all-time greats had to play against each other & their super teams.

Of the 10 All-Time Greats (Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Lebron, Kareem, KD, Duncan, Shaq & Kobe), MJ never had to play any of the 10 in their Prime (and this is VERY important). ALL 10 had to play each other in the Finals! (Duncan v Shaq/Kobe in West Finals). MJ never faced a team with 3 HOFers in the Finals, 9 of the 10 others did! This is not an "era" thing either! These players played in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 00's, 10's. Just missed the 90's! As much as the East has been historically weak for periods of Lebrons career (not his fault), I believe MJ's Finals path has also been without match historically weak also? (again, not his fault).

To compare another player to MJ by resume is just impossible because really no other player has faced that level of competition. He was incredible and shouldn’t be dinged for the competition, but I’m sure if you slide in a few other All-Time Greats in their prime (Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Lebron, Kareem, KD, Duncan, Shaq & Kobe) in place of MJ in the above equation many of them come up with 4 or 5 titles and I’m very confident 1 or 2 (if not more) walk away with 6 also. Conversely, I think outside of incredible MJ diehards no reasonable person actually thinks MJ would go 9 for 9 replacing Lebron & facing his slate of Finals opponents.

Do you consider beating Shaq and Penny 4-0 meaningful at all in the Eastern Finals?

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by dream34

This is a very huge misconception of MJ's run. Not once did MJ ever have a disadvantage in HOFers on his team compared to his competition in the Finals. During MJ's 6 title run he faced a total of 9 HOFers (counting Stockton and Malone x2). That's 1.5 HOFers per title.

Lebron's faced at least 9 (and possibly 10) in JUST his 3 title wins. But he is not the only one, in fact that is more often than not the norm. Most of the all-time greats had to play against each other & their super teams.

Of the 10 All-Time Greats (Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Lebron, Kareem, KD, Duncan, Shaq & Kobe), MJ never had to play any of the 10 in their Prime (and this is VERY important). ALL 10 had to play each other in the Finals! (Duncan v Shaq/Kobe in West Finals). MJ never faced a team with 3 HOFers in the Finals, 9 of the 10 others did! This is not an "era" thing either! These players played in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 00's, 10's. Just missed the 90's! As much as the East has been historically weak for periods of Lebrons career (not his fault), I believe MJ's Finals path has also been without match historically weak also? (again, not his fault).

To compare another player to MJ by resume is just impossible because really no other player has faced that level of competition. He was incredible and shouldn’t be dinged for the competition, but I’m sure if you slide in a few other All-Time Greats in their prime (Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Lebron, Kareem, KD, Duncan, Shaq & Kobe) in place of MJ in the above equation many of them come up with 4 or 5 titles and I’m very confident 1 or 2 (if not more) walk away with 6 also. Conversely, I think outside of incredible MJ diehards no reasonable person actually thinks MJ would go 9 for 9 replacing Lebron & facing his slate of Finals opponents.

I don’t know what MJ would do replacing Lebron but we do know he wouldn’t have to go 9/9 to be better. Just better than 33% lol. You can sub any of those names for that result too.

[6celtics33]

All this talk about Golden State and how unfair it is and how much better they are got me thinking that Lebron has gotten a bad rap as a losing player because of them.

So let’s take them off the board.

No Golden State’s in his history

2007 0-4 L
2011 2-4 L
2012 4-1 W
2013 4-3 W
2014 1-4 L

11-16 record

Well he can’t win in 07 you say either so ok wipe that one off too

11-12

Any way you slice it, he hasn’t been able to get his team to .500 on the biggest stage.

Team game they’ll say

Well he’s picked his team twice and had a big 3 twice. I sure hope he can pick better this summer.

Hasn’t had a good coach?

Well he’ll have the chance to fix that one for himself too.

I’m not going to defend him if he makes more bad decisions.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by GC1980

I don’t know what MJ would do replacing Lebron but we do know he wouldn’t have to go 9/9 to be better. Just better than 33% lol. You can sub any of those names for that result too.

Exactly 3/9 to 9/9 leaves a lot of wiggle room in there

[Round Mound]

Do you know for sure what the Bulls would have done against the teams the Cavs lost against? Do you know for sure what the Cavs would have done against the teams the Bulls won against? No, you don't.

[dream34]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Do you consider beating Shaq and Penny 4-0 meaningful at all in the Eastern Finals?

I don't think it's insignificant, but MJ had Pipp, Rodman, Kukoc (who was the best international player before arriving to the Bulls) & Ron Harper (who was the best Clipper (lol!) before arriving to the Bulls). Also Phil Jackson against Brian Hill (?) I believe is at least a mismatch & we've seen this year that coaching does somewhat matter (Brad Stevens/Celtics run). Any way you slice it, during MJ's 6 title run he was never really at a disadvantage matchup wise (again not his fault, but still the situation).

[dream34]

Originally Posted by Round Mound

Do you know for sure what the Bulls would have done against the teams the Cavs lost against? Do you know for sure what the Cavs would have done against the teams the Bulls won against? No, you don't.

Absolutely true, which is why the debate will always rage on. Never will be "for sure" on these but we can be realistic.

Also, definitely not saying switch Bulls/Cavs. More reasonable to switch MJ with other superstar.

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by Noah

I don’t have the time or energy to teach but

Bulls went from 55/27 and a ring in 93 to 47/35 in 94 and early exit but they traded and signed key players like kukoc, Kerr, Harper, longley and kept the same coach

Following year they were sitting at 23/25 before Jordan came back, once he came back they won 24 out of 34 and squeaked into the playoffs

Lebron leaves, multiple role players leave, bosh injured (played 44 games) Ray Allen retires

Heat went from 54/28 to 37/45 after losing lebron, bosh half games, Ray Allen, Norris Cole played 40 something games, they lost other key guys but they slip my mind right now

Heat got a lot worse and it was only 17 game difference after lebron left

Can’t really compare him leaving the Cavs the first time, I think only 5 guys that were lebrons teammates finished that next season with the Cavs and they had a new coach

Edit————-here is the others the heat lost after lebron left
Shane battier, James Johnson, Rashard Lewis

you miss the entire point...... im just trying to say each are worth a substantial amount in wins to their team... 20,30,35.. whatever it may be.

of course guys leave and retire, get signed........ but so what unless they are annual all stars

if the adding or subtraction of a role player is the difference between you winning and losing then the superstar wasn't good enough. if golden state had lost to houston because iguodala missed a few games; that means durant and curry were not good enough to answer the bell, period

lebron lost kevin love and found a way to beat a celtics team who just didn't lose games at home.... he answered the bell

not all comparisons have equal opportunity..... jordan may have never had an opportunity to win a game 6 or 7 without rodman..... maybe a glue guy like toni kukoc never missed 3 games in a series and jordan just kept pounding without him

most all things are situational and cannot be replicated to compare guys.... what can be compared... both jordan and lebron were/are worth a huge amount of wins to their team just by being there.... exactly how much, who knows

from that point it's preference, some will say lebron can do more than jordan so he's better... some will say lebron loses too much in a team sport so he can't be the best

all i know is that lebron lost a finals to dallas when his team was superior, he also won a series against golden state when he was on the inferior team; kudos on that

jordan was on the best team each time, and won them all..... it just it what it is.... i don't forgive the dallas series because they beat golden state

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by dream34

I don't think it's insignificant, but MJ had Pipp, Rodman, Kukoc (who was the best international player before arriving to the Bulls) & Ron Harper (who was the best Clipper (lol!) before arriving to the Bulls). Also Phil Jackson against Brian Hill (?) I believe is at least a mismatch & we've seen this year that coaching does somewhat matter (Brad Stevens/Celtics run). Any way you slice it, during MJ's 6 title run he was never really at a disadvantage matchup wise (again not his fault, but still the situation).

Ever consider that’s because he was the ultimate mis match and people had to react to him, not the other way around?

Kukoc was good. He scored the 2nd most points (15) when Jordan scored 45 on the road in game 6 and gutted out a 6th title. Scottie had a bad back but he wasn’t one to make excuses. He just went and did it.

But I know, the Bulls with Ron Harper and Rodman who allowed other teams to play 5 on 4 defense because he couldn’t throw it in the ocean were just so much superior to everyone. Strange they played so many close games, should’ve blew everybody away.

Same with Russell, so much talent on his teams yet they found themselves in 10 game 7s somehow. 10-0 in those for him but

Team wins

[6celtics33]

I’d love to know why when his “team” loses its a team game but when they win one Lebron gets all the credit?

Seems a tad double standardy to me

[6celtics33]

Stats for one don’t tell the contextual story

Lebron this post season has been Jordan like scoring meaningful points down the stretch to close games. Offensively this postseason Lebron has absolutely been on par with Jordan.

But to act like this is who he’s been for 15 years is comical.

Even last year he let Kyrie dribble out the clock, got stripped himself, and couldn’t stop KD from bringing back the Warriors and losing the lead they’d built. Could’ve been a 2-2 series.

He scored 16 or 17 in the 4th in game 5 last year when the game was over already. It looked like a pick up game and ended up in the 120s.

That was not so impressive to me.

Lebron this postseason has been VERY impressive to me.

[AnthonyCorona]

You can't talk about the greatest basketball player ever and not have lavar ball in the conversation

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[Round Mound]

6celtics33, you always forget to mention the opposing teams, unless it is the Mavs the Cavs lost against.....

The Celtics of Russell played scrubs like West and Baylor, who in their prime in the playoffs AVERAGED 35-40ppg, and 15rpg for Baylor......

They also got to play Pettit-Hagan-Lovelette, and a guy named Chamberlain along with Thurmond.....

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by Round Mound

Do you know for sure what the Bulls would have done against the teams the Cavs lost against? Do you know for sure what the Cavs would have done against the teams the Bulls won against? No, you don't.

You like to say individual accolades, team accomplishments I believe is what you say

Do you know for sure in the no hand check no defense nba when Westbrook can average a triple double for 2 years in a row that Jordan wouldn’t put up 40-10-8 with 3 steals or something over a 5 year stretch on 55% shooting?

No you don’t.

I don’t know your hypothetical either you’re right

That’s why I don’t use them

I go with reality and recorded history

[Round Mound]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

You like to say individual accolades, team accomplishments I believe is what you say

Do you know for sure in the no hand check no defense nba when Westbrook can average a triple double for 2 years in a row that Jordan wouldn’t put up 40-10-8 with 3 steals or something over a 5 year stretch on 55% shooting?

No you don’t.

I don’t know your hypothetical either you’re right

That’s why I don’t use them

I go with reality and recorded history

And who knows if LeBron, with the 90s rules, wouldn't be allowed to bully his way to 40ppg, along with 5bpg?

Reality is that Jordan and LeBron played with a different set of rules, different teammates, differents opponents, in a different era. Every conclusion as to who has to be first or second of all-time is pure opinions.

(PS: I don't see how Jordan would average MORE steals with the no hand-checking rule and without an other lockdown defender by his side....but it's just my opinion.)

[imbluestreak23]

Bulls dropped off the 98/99 season sadly.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by Round Mound

And who knows if LeBron, with the 90s rules, wouldn't be allowed to bully his way to 40ppg, along with 5bpg?

Reality is that Jordan and LeBron played with a different set of rules, different teammates, differents opponents, in a different era. Every conclusion as to who has to be first or second of all-time is pure opinions.

(PS: I don't see how Jordan would average MORE steals with the no hand-checking rule and without an other lockdown defender by his side....but it's just my opinion.)

That’s fair

Just like I don’t see how Lebron could bully his way to 40 back then when every game he gets fouled by smaller guys and lays on the ground like he’s dead for 5 minutes.

Just my opinion

[ThoseBackPages]

still top 10.

hoping he can lead his team to a victory tonight

[robert0629]

Originally Posted by dream34

This is a very huge misconception of MJ's run. Not once did MJ ever have a disadvantage in HOFers on his team compared to his competition in the Finals. During MJ's 6 title run he faced a total of 9 HOFers (counting Stockton and Malone x2). That's 1.5 HOFers per title.

Lebron's faced at least 9 (and possibly 10) in JUST his 3 title wins. But he is not the only one, in fact that is more often than not the norm. Most of the all-time greats had to play against each other & their super teams.

Of the 10 All-Time Greats (Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Lebron, Kareem, KD, Duncan, Shaq & Kobe), MJ never had to play any of the 10 in their Prime (and this is VERY important). ALL 10 had to play each other in the Finals! (Duncan v Shaq/Kobe in West Finals). MJ never faced a team with 3 HOFers in the Finals, 9 of the 10 others did! This is not an "era" thing either! These players played in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 00's, 10's. Just missed the 90's! As much as the East has been historically weak for periods of Lebrons career (not his fault), I believe MJ's Finals path has also been without match historically weak also? (again, not his fault).

To compare another player to MJ by resume is just impossible because really no other player has faced that level of competition. He was incredible and shouldn’t be dinged for the competition, but I’m sure if you slide in a few other All-Time Greats in their prime (Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Lebron, Kareem, KD, Duncan, Shaq & Kobe) in place of MJ in the above equation many of them come up with 4 or 5 titles and I’m very confident 1 or 2 (if not more) walk away with 6 also. Conversely, I think outside of incredible MJ diehards no reasonable person actually thinks MJ would go 9 for 9 replacing Lebron & facing his slate of Finals opponents.

Basketball Reference has a Hall of Fame probability score that they award players who they believe will make the HOF. They base it on what voters have deemed to be most important in the past. Some players have been voted in despite low scores. This could be do to International play, NCAA play, clutch performances, and team performances. For example, Bill Walton and Reggie Miller are Hall of Famers. Walton's probably in because of his NCAA career, but his score is just 2%. Miller's probably in because of his clutch playoff performances, but has a score of just 31%.

You are making some big assumptions in your post. First of all Manu Ginobili would never get into the HOF based on his NBA career. Basketball Reference gives him a probability score of just 20%. He's made just two All-Star games and averaged just over 13 PPG. He will make it due to International play and the Spurs team success. Right now the probability scores for Draymond Green is just 14%, Klay Thompson is just 13%, and Kawhi Leonard is just 6%. Some of these players will likely go in do to their team's success or depending on how they continue to play for the rest of their careers, but it doesn't mean they're on a higher level than other players who haven't been voted in. Shawn Kemp for example has a probability score of 38%, made six All-Star games, and had better career averages than Ginobili's. Kevin Johnson has a probability score of 19% which is nearly equal to Ginobili's, he made three All-Star games to Ginobili's two, and had better career averages.

[6celtics33]

3:30ish in 2nd quarter

You can’t be goat with effort like that staying on one end while your team plays D 4 on 5

Lead by example

[ThoseBackPages]

even though he is gassed, i still have him in the top 10 after tonights game

[jjohnson814]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

even though he is gassed, i still have him in the top 10 after tonights game

Phew!! Lol

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