Rolling Thread for 90s Fakes and Backdoored Cards

[kenji003]

Did anybody aware eBay seller kupu-47 is selling some reprinted cards including Jordan pmg red, green, star rubies?

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[chugga15]

Thanks for all the work on this thread!

I am no expert on Essential Credentials, but I ran across a picture of a Tracy McGrady Essential Credentials Now (#01/02) on another website. The serial numbering looks off and closely resembles the 02/02 numbering on the first page.

A picture of the McGrady can be seen here.

[blinkme323]

It looks like Probstein just posted a fake Platinum Medallion:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-97-Fle...AAAOSwIWBexDQ1

[pacmon84]

Originally Posted by blinkme323

It looks like Probstein just posted a fake Platinum Medallion:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-97-Fle...AAAOSwIWBexDQ1

How can you tell?

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by pacmon84

How can you tell?

Poor print quality.

[vandelaytrading]

Awesome eye opening thread! Thanks!!!!

[rogermaris]

Fake 1996-97 Ultra Platinum Medallion Michael Jordan:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-97-Fle...AAAOSwIWBexDQ1






Fake 1996-97 Ultra Platinum Medallion Kobe Bryant:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-97-Fle...AAAOSwnaVevdc3

[HoustOM]

Originally Posted by chugga15

Thanks for all the work on this thread!

I am no expert on Essential Credentials, but I ran across a picture of a Tracy McGrady Essential Credentials Now (#01/02) on another website. The serial numbering looks off and closely resembles the 02/02 numbering on the first page.

A picture of the McGrady can be seen here.

Last year I personally saw one of the T-Mac in a card shop in Kaohsiung, Taiwan. I should have taken a picture. Can't remember if it was 01 or 02.

[jnmcards]

This is more for my own edification, but why are counterfeits of some 90s cards so prevalent, while others are rarely seen? For instance, RAVEs, Platinums, etc. pop up all the time, but we rarely see other high-profile stuff like Rubies or refractors. Did the counterfeiters somehow get their hands on printing plates for the other stuff?

Its just frustrating to me as the owner of some legit copies and makes me question long term prospects.

[kukocitb]

Originally Posted by jnmcards

This is more for my own edification, but why are counterfeits of some 90s cards so prevalent, while others are rarely seen? For instance, RAVEs, Platinums, etc. pop up all the time, but we rarely see other high-profile stuff like Rubies or refractors. Did the counterfeiters somehow get their hands on printing plates for the other stuff?

Its just frustrating to me as the owner of some legit copies and makes me question long term prospects.

It seems with fakes being in the market it has not affected the value of real ones in the market. I mean 90s stuff is hotter than ever I would say but I think anything basketball is this way currently.

If you have any 90s cards of Kukoc I can help you with that...... HA!

[rj.cataldo]

Originally Posted by rj.cataldo

I’m interested to hear what the issue is with the Jordan. Is it the serial numbering? I thought I remember seeing/being told that the serial numbering for this set was like that vs the bigger font next to the /289.

There are about a thousand variants of these cards on eBay and worthpoint with no stamping different stamping and just “/289”.

I bought this copy about two years ago from Probstein it seems. So if the above is true, this must be back doored




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Thought I would follow up on this one. I reached out to Rick after it came to my attention that it might be fake. He directed me to PSA, and in early March I sent the card into PSA for re-evaluation. A day ago they came back and validated what everyone already knew, that the card was indeed altered. They are buying the card back at $750 which was my declared value as I was really unsure what the value would be. I think a real PSA 8 would be substantially higher in reality. That said, this card will now be off the market for good.


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[blinkme323]

Originally Posted by kukocitb

It seems with fakes being in the market it has not affected the value of real ones in the market. I mean 90s stuff is hotter than ever I would say but I think anything basketball is this way currently.

If you have any 90s cards of Kukoc I can help you with that...... HA!

Well it's interesting, using the 96-97 PM as an example, there are less than 100 combined on the BGS / PSA pop reports, yet it is around a $1200-1300 card. So either it is extremely undervalued (which may very well be the case) or there is some hesitance due to fakes.

In terms of how counterfeiters pick their spots, yeah that's a great question... maybe it is the tooling or something that we aren't even privy to.

[3124508 on COMC]

This has a fake serial number.

"How cool is this card?"

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/2278613

[KhalDrogo]

Legit check.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/233599370594

https://www.ebay.com/itm/233598567134

[libruary]

I understand from this thread that the stamping of serial numbers is relatively easy to fake, but how is the platinum foil etc faked, like for 96 ultra platinum?

[rogermaris]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Legit check.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/233599370594

https://www.ebay.com/itm/233598567134

Look good to me.

[rogermaris]

Originally Posted by kukocitb

It seems with fakes being in the market it has not affected the value of real ones in the market. I mean 90s stuff is hotter than ever I would say but I think anything basketball is this way currently.

This is true for some sets, but many others have been adversely affected. The most obvious one is the 1998-99 Thunder Rave set /150. These are some of the toughest 90s cards in existence (boxes were rumored to have been destroyed by Fleer/insurance companies during the lockout). Many popular players don't even have ANY sales records on ebay, at least according to Worthpoint and PWCC. When I looked into it, I was only able to find a single sale of a real Kobe (going back to when the records started in 2004). The only real photo of one I've ever been able to find on the internet is from Nat Turner's Flickr page. And yet fake Kobe raves are listed on ebay all the time, creating an illusion of abundance. They regularly sell for less than $500 despite being arguably Kobe's rarest 90s issue. The Jordan is a similar story.

If I had to guess the next most affected set, I'd say it's the 1996-97 Platinum Medallions. ~75% of the Kobes and Jordans I see listed on ebay are fake, which again, creates an illusion of abundance and drives down prices. I can only imagine how expensive '96 PMs would be if they had never been counterfeited.

Originally Posted by blinkme323

Well it's interesting, using the 96-97 PM as an example, there are less than 100 combined on the BGS / PSA pop reports, yet it is around a $1200-1300 card. So either it is extremely undervalued (which may very well be the case) or there is some hesitance due to fakes.

In terms of how counterfeiters pick their spots, yeah that's a great question... maybe it is the tooling or something that we aren't even privy to.

Yes, and keep in mind many of the cards listed in the pop report are fake. PSA and BGS have graded many.

Originally Posted by libruary

I understand from this thread that the stamping of serial numbers is relatively easy to fake, but how is the platinum foil etc faked, like for 96 ultra platinum?

Fleer didn't create the foil patterns used on their cards. They bought patterns that were mass produced and available to anyone. The forgers simply source the original (or matching) foil patterns.

[libruary]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

Fleer didn't create the foil patterns used on their cards. They bought patterns that were mass produced and available to anyone. The forgers simply source the original (or matching) foil patterns.

I still don't quite get it.. when you say bought patterns, is that fleer buying the card already created? Or is the pattern like a sticker and applied to the card? How would the P-## be faked on the back as well?

[rogermaris]

Originally Posted by libruary

I still don't quite get it.. when you say bought patterns, is that fleer buying the card already created? Or is the pattern like a sticker and applied to the card? How would the P-## be faked on the back as well?

The platinum medallion fakes are being recreated from the ground up. They aren't simply taking base cards and adding foil to them.

Fleer designed the cards and selected the materials they wanted to use, then had them manufactured according to the designers' specifications. But they don't invent the materials/foils/patterns themselves.

This is still how it's done. For instance, Topps did not design/manufacture the famous superfractor pattern. It's a commercially available foil called "small engine turn gold vinyl."

https://www.amazon.com/Roll-Engine-T.../dp/B073SMTCHC

[spacewrangler]

Wasn't careful with my research and bought this faked 1998 Kobe AG9 Topps autograph. Seller is issuing a full refund and claims he didn't know. Be careful out there!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-99-Top...72.m2749.l2649

[rogermaris]

Originally Posted by spacewrangler

Wasn't careful with my research and bought this faked 1998 Kobe AG9 Topps autograph. Seller is issuing a full refund and claims he didn't know. Be careful out there!

What about that card makes you think it's fake? Did you receive the card in hand?

[spacewrangler]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

What about that card makes you think it's fake? Did you receive the card in hand?

Yes, received it in hand. I'm 100% positive it is a fake card, no foil on the Topps logo or vertical Kobe Bryant. Under x10, the ink was obviously from a much more modern printer then my AG2 auto from that same year (pulled the AG2 myself). Its a very good fake so I can't say for sure the seller was acting in bad faith but wanted to give a warning about the AG9's and AG2's out there, lots of forgeries, definitely a few listed on eBay right now. No foil letters is the dead giveaway.

[rogermaris]

Originally Posted by spacewrangler

Yes, received it in hand. I'm 100% positive it is a fake card, no foil on the Topps logo or vertical Kobe Bryant. Under x10, the ink was obviously from a much more modern printer then my AG2 auto from that same year (pulled the AG2 myself). Its a very good fake so I can't say for sure the seller was acting in bad faith but wanted to give a warning about the AG9's and AG2's out there, lots of forgeries, definitely a few listed on eBay right now. No foil letters is the dead giveaway.

Real copies of AG9 do not have foil on the front. The foil is only present on AG2.

Not saying the copy you returned was real necessarily, but just pointing that out.

[blinkme323]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

This is true for some sets, but many others have been adversely affected. The most obvious one is the 1998-99 Thunder Rave set /150. These are some of the toughest 90s cards in existence (boxes were rumored to have been destroyed by Fleer/insurance companies during the lockout). Many popular players don't even have ANY sales records on ebay, at least according to Worthpoint and PWCC. When I looked into it, I was only able to find a single sale of a real Kobe (going back to when the records started in 2004). The only real photo of one I've ever been able to find on the internet is from Nat Turner's Flickr page. And yet fake Kobe raves are listed on ebay all the time, creating an illusion of abundance. They regularly sell for less than $500 despite being arguably Kobe's rarest 90s issue. The Jordan is a similar story.

If I had to guess the next most affected set, I'd say it's the 1996-97 Platinum Medallions. ~75% of the Kobes and Jordans I see listed on ebay are fake, which again, creates an illusion of abundance and drives down prices. I can only imagine how expensive '96 PMs would be if they had never been counterfeited.




Yes, and keep in mind many of the cards listed in the pop report are fake. PSA and BGS have graded many.




Fleer didn't create the foil patterns used on their cards. They bought patterns that were mass produced and available to anyone. The forgers simply source the original (or matching) foil patterns.

So just speculating at this point, but is this rectifiable? I'm terribly biased since I own authentic versions of some of these cards, but I would hope that over time their true values will be realized.

[spacewrangler]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

Real copies of AG9 do not have foil on the front. The foil is only present on AG2.

Not saying the copy you returned was real necessarily, but just pointing that out.

Oh wow okay I might need to send this guy an apology. The autograph itself is quite convincing. I haven't put it back in the mail yet, are there any other parts of the card I should look for? I can send more pics of it!