LeBron Exquisite /99 - altered & damaged

[jmscoggin]

Originally Posted by Siberian13

If both guys were protecting some 3rd party then what does that say about their character.

I think you're asking the wrong question although it was a valid point. I'm more intrigued with who this third party is. Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that the accuser and accusee have both gone radio silent? Have we ever seen that before?

Jack started out hot to trot and then completely disappeared. Eric's business and reputation is completely under fire yet he refuses to speak or out the one party that could clear his name. I know I wouldn't risk my business for anyone else. Who is this "third party" that has both so worried about talking?

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree but my gut tells me that there is something much bigger at play than one (or even two) altered Lebrons.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by smalltown

These are the points i take issue with and i'm quoting you because you say this is what Eric (BNC) said:





He knows where the card came from. He "now" knows it's trimmed. To me what this says is he hopes it will all blow over so he doesn't have to deal with taking a hit on one or more high end cards. The card is altered. There is no question of this.



He sells high end cards. Let's not kid ourselves he had plans to try and move it eventually and probably still does. I'm sure this will put that on the back burner. But i hope people who are looking to buy a lebron of that caliber see this and or other threads that show that the card is altered.

How he deals with that card going forward will be the true test of what kind of guy he is in this hobby. If he obtained it unknowingly altered i feel for him - it's a potential loss of multiple thousands of dollars in value. But it doesn't change the fact that it's his problem to deal with now.

What did I say that you disagree on. I agree on almost everything above. Well, except for the fact that he’s certain to sell that card. I think that’s one of his very favorites. Eric’s like most of us. He collects and sells.

Heck, actually that’s actually pretty good circumstantial evidence that Eric did not trim it. Who trims a card then grades it then never lists it publicly for 4 years? That doesn’t seem to fit, right?

[jjeanius]

Spoiler Alert: THERE IS NO THIRD PARTY

[jjeanius]

Originally Posted by the27guy

Heck, actually that’s actually pretty good circumstantial evidence that Eric did not trim it. Who trims a card then grades it then never lists it publicly for 4 years? That doesn’t seem to fit, right?

This feels like another reach. Why rush to sell it? The longer you wait, the less likely the previous owner will catch the fact that it was trimmed.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by jjeanius

Jack stated this in post #9, and confirmed it again in post #26, where he also said he would not be posting again in this thread. How many more confirmations do you need..?

Just one. That’s it. I asked a question. And I’ll take his answer at face value.

It’s kinda like dealing with my kids. Sometimes they get into a fight and each tell a story that doesn’t add up, so I get them together and say, “okay let’s figure this out.”

It’ll be good to have jack answer that question. I don’t think it makes him evil and bad if he says something like “yeah, i skipped a step in the transaction - it actually did go to a buddy of mine first” or something like that.

Or maybe you’re right and I should have just taken his original statement at face value. If that happens, I will owe him an apology. Again, by all accounts - he’s a good dude. And he is an asset to the boards. He knows that I feel that way about him.

[alias21]

I feel for the 27 guy. But he has essentially made himself the spokesperson for one of the two parties involved. The one made this thread pointing out where a card he sold was trimmed. He has nothing to gain in this other than making the hobby aware.

The other currently owns this card. And despite him “answering every question asked of him” won’t answer where they bought the card from. And yeah he’s probably a generally trustworthy person but a extra 50-100k makes people do funny things. The op said more than once he shipped directly to the current owner. I’d say it’s up to the current owner to say something.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by jjeanius

This feels like another reach. Why rush to sell it? The longer you wait, the less likely the previous owner will catch the fact that it was trimmed.

Maybe you’re right. We will see.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by alias21

I feel for the 27 guy. But he has essentially made himself the spokesperson for one of the two parties involved. The one made this thread pointing out where a card he sold was trimmed. He has nothing to gain in this other than making the hobby aware.

The other currently owns this card. And despite him “answering every question asked of him” won’t answer where they bought the card from. And yeah he’s probably a generally trustworthy person but a extra 50-100k makes people do funny things. The op said more than once he shipped directly to the current owner. I’d say it’s up to the current owner to say something.

He’s told me who he bought it from. I’m sorry, you’re not going to like this, but I’m not going to do the job that is Jack’s and Eric’s. They need to say who they sold and purchased the card from. That’s on them.

[discostu]

So much makes sense here...even with the voids of info.

First and foremost, Jack made his case twice and had nothing to gain by showing that it was trimmed as he clearly showed scans prior to it being trimmed. If he trimmed it, or had an acquaintance trim it and then send to Eric, that makes zero sense.

And then we have Eric, who has chosen to not enter the conversation while wanting to move on from it...via a third party. Eric also has the most at stake here. Surely if he wasn't involved in the trimming, he'd be fired up to get BGS and the person who he obtained the card from involved for a resolution. And then (stating the obvious) come here to explain.

He hasn't.

Then of course we have the case of the other trimmed Lebron also under his wing.

So yeah...there's all that. And that's not good.

This is an ugly part of the hobby, and always has been. This fraudulent activity that someone is taking part in is absolutely criminal...but the parties involved have zero interest in pursuing it.

BGS absolutely bears some responsibility here too. From the comically vacant usage of correlating serial-numbers to graded cards, to the lack of internal scans of graded cards, to the lack of consistency and ability to spot trimming.

It's not good. None of it. But there's zero reason for Jack to come back and restate what he already has. Eric hasn't shown anything to counter what Jack said, and there's no reason the expect him to at this point.

[Siberian13]

I don’t know much about grading but based on the price of these cards, how do they not catch this? Could an employee at BGS also be involved? I understand they see a ton of cards but something like this should be carefully looked at more than others. How do members of Blowout have better understanding of these cards than one of the top grading companies? It seems they would have the same tools as us to figure this out.

[jjeanius]

Originally Posted by discostu

So much makes sense here...even with the voids of info.

First and foremost, Jack made his case twice and had nothing to gain by showing that it was trimmed as he clearly showed scans prior to it being trimmed. If he trimmed it, or had an acquaintance trim it and then send to Eric, that makes zero sense.

And then we have Eric, who has chosen to not enter the conversation while wanting to move on from it...via a third party. Eric also has the most at stake here. Surely if he wasn't involved in the trimming, he'd be fired up to get BGS and the person who he obtained the card from involved for a resolution. And then (stating the obvious) come here to explain.

He hasn't.

Then of course we have the case of the other trimmed Lebron also under his wing.

So yeah...there's all that. And that's not good.

This is an ugly part of the hobby, and always has been. This fraudulent activity that someone is taking part in is absolutely criminal...but the parties involved have zero interest in pursuing it.

BGS absolutely bears some responsibility here too. From the comically vacant usage of correlating serial-numbers to graded cards, to the lack of internal scans of graded cards, to the lack of consistency and ability to spot trimming.

It's not good. None of it. But there's zero reason for Jack to come back and restate what he already has. Eric hasn't shown anything to counter what Jack said, and there's no reason the expect him to at this point.

QFT. Well said.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by Siberian13

I don’t know much about grading but based on the price of these cards, how do they not catch this? Could an employee at BGS also be involved? I understand they see a ton of cards but something like this should be carefully looked at more than others. How do members of Blowout have better understanding of these cards than one of the top grading companies? It seems they would have the same tools as us to figure this out.

Psa is just as bad. No, psa is worse. Especially on modern thicker card stock. BGS has gotten way better over the last 5 years. At least that’s what I’ve seen based on cards that I’ve known have been trimmed and eventually graded this last few years.

I personally think the companies make mistake. I have no knowledge or real suspicions that either company has people who are being deceitful internally.

[alias21]

Originally Posted by the27guy

He’s told me who he bought it from. I’m sorry, you’re not going to like this, but I’m not going to do the job that is Jack’s and Eric’s. They need to say who they sold and purchased the card from. That’s on them.

Ok well he hasn’t answered this threads question of who he bought it from. Maybe tell them that there’s a thread , on the biggest card forum, accusing him of altering the most expensive basketball card in history and there’s a person saying they sold and shipped it to him directly. Maybe that will compel him to care to respond. If it doesn’t that doesn’t look good considering he owns 2 trimmed $100k plus cards.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by alias21

Ok well he hasn’t answered this threads question of who he bought it from. Maybe tell them that there’s a thread , on the biggest card forum, accusing him of altering the most expensive basketball card in history and there’s a person saying they sold and shipped it to him directly. Maybe that will compel him to care to respond. If it doesn’t that doesn’t look good considering he owns 2 trimmed $100k plus cards.

I know. I’ve told him. He won’t listen to me. I’m hopeful that he will. I need to look at the other one. I’ve only looked at the first.

[discostu]

Originally Posted by Siberian13

I don’t know much about grading but based on the price of these cards, how do they not catch this? Could an employee at BGS also be involved? I understand they see a ton of cards but something like this should be carefully looked at more than others. How do members of Blowout have better understanding of these cards than one of the top grading companies? It seems they would have the same tools as us to figure this out.

For anyone at BGS to be involved in the trimming, that's a reach. Now, are they complicit in lacking due diligence in a field they claim to be an expert in? Yes. Should they have a better system in place to track cards? Yes. Should they know how to size cards? Yes.

But...we then have the money.

If people weren't able to get legitimate bumps and shady bumps, BGS wouldn't be getting nearly the same revenue.

So much of this hobby has been about passing the hot potato and hoping that you don't get stuck with it.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by alias21

And yeah he’s probably a generally trustworthy person but a extra 50-100k makes people do funny things. .

Prevalent.

I won't take any sides here, but money can make people do funny things. Individuals who you'd never in a million years suspect would do something so low brow. It's hard to separate friendship from individual actions when it's someone you've been in a good graces with. We've all been there.


I hope there's a resolution to this. Cards like this constitute an extremely high level of fraud. Trimmers and patch fakers have been responsible for many crushed collector dreams and wallets for decades now. And the culprits need to start being weeded out and exposed.

Or you may unwittingly find yourself the next victim.

[alias21]

Originally Posted by the27guy

I know. I’ve told him. He won’t listen to me. I’m hopeful that he will. I need to look at the other one. I’ve only looked at the first.

Ok again I’m not blaming you but you are essentially acting as a spokesperson for him which I’m sure is a uncomfortable spot for you to be in. As you’ve said in this thread this is a very important issue and not to be taken lightly.

This is not something that will be swept under the rug or ignored. For me silence is a admission of guilt in this matter if you can’t be bothered to defend yourself against altering the most important basketball card in history

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by alias21

Ok again I’m not blaming you but you are essentially acting as a spokesperson for him which I’m sure is a uncomfortable spot for you to be in. As you’ve said in this thread this is a very important issue and not to be taken lightly.

This is not something that will be swept under the rug or ignored. For me silence is a admission of guilt in this matter if you can’t be bothered to defend yourself against altering the most important basketball card in history

You’re clearly not the only one who feels this way. Which, again, is why I want Eric to come and tell his side. So we can learn what we need to lock away the bad guy.

[discostu]

Originally Posted by the27guy

I know. I’ve told him. He won’t listen to me. I’m hopeful that he will. I need to look at the other one. I’ve only looked at the first.

And there's a reason for that.

The more time passes, the more certainty there is. And the more certainty there is, the more people need to get involved.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by discostu

And there's a reason for that.

The more time passes, the more certainty there is. And the more certainty there is, the more people need to get involved.

This is an assumption that isn’t always true.

[discostu]

Originally Posted by the27guy

This is an assumption that isn’t always true.

Absolutely correct.

Death or Belize are two such examples where this wouldn't be true. Obviously there are other exceptions as well.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by discostu

Absolutely correct.

Death or Belize are two such examples where this wouldn't be true. Obviously there are other exceptions as well.

Lol. This is fun. We are going to but the VERY EXCLUSICE 5,000 hits in one day thread. That’s ratified air.

[ThoseBackPages]

man, i cant even post a funny here

[Siberian13]

Originally Posted by jmscoggin

I think you're asking the wrong question although it was a valid point. I'm more intrigued with who this third party is. Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that the accuser and accusee have both gone radio silent? Have we ever seen that before?

Jack started out hot to trot and then completely disappeared. Eric's business and reputation is completely under fire yet he refuses to speak or out the one party that could clear his name. I know I wouldn't risk my business for anyone else. Who is this "third party" that has both so worried about talking?

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree but my gut tells me that there is something much bigger at play than one (or even two) altered Lebrons.

The Jack guy made a post saying it was his last post. He at least showed up and said something. Eric not saying anything is very alarming. I feel like the27guy should stay out of it until proof has been presented but Eric or Jack. The fact that the27guy knows who the third party is and won’t say anything is also alarming.

This card world is very sad sometimes. Filled with greedy terrible people. I was excited to get back into this but it’s embarrassing on a daily basis watching mostly grown men be terrible people over cardboard.

[Siberian13]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

man, i cant even post a funny here

Same here, it’s pretty sad.