Why so little love for Blake Snell?

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by rms13

I think they were anointing Doc as the greatest pitcher of all time in 1985

Anyone announcing that someone is the greatest of all-time due to a single season is a dolt.

[JRX]

Is degrom even pitching this year?

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[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Lmao, Walter Johnson would like a word along with many others I’m sure. Just because deGrom had one all-time great level season doesn’t mean anyone ever thought he was the greatest pitcher of all-time. Dwight Gooden’s best season is better than deGrom’s and no one was anointing him the greatest pitcher of all-time.

Peak Gooden was 230 ERA+ and just under 9 K/9
Peak degrom was 375 ERA+ and jsut over 14 K/9

It’s a laughable comparison. Sure he only started 15 games but it’s the best 15 game stretch in baseball history and nothing comes close (2nd half Arietta and Pedro had some good runs though)

Sure you can say Doc was throwing longer but that’s also a product of the hitters he was facing and makeup of bullpens. Transport peak Degrom to 2985 and he can go 8-9 innings cause he may give up 2 base runners per 9 innings. And posts a sub .5 ERA with 20+ K/9

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by JRX

Is degrom even pitching this year?

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He’s supposed to be back around July, and why I hammered rangers futures. Hoping he’s healthy for October

[rms13]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Anyone announcing that someone is the greatest of all-time due to a single season is a dolt.

That's the NY media for you. There hasn't been any other pitcher since I started watching basketball who had as much hype to start their career then Doc. He was a can't miss HOF after two seasons at 20 years old. Degrom's definitely not the greatest pitcher of all time but he had a great peak.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Peak Gooden was 230 ERA+ and just under 9 K/9

Peak degrom was 375 ERA+ and jsut over 14 K/9



It’s a laughable comparison. Sure he only started 15 games but it’s the best 15 game stretch in baseball history and nothing comes close (2nd half Arietta and Pedro had some good runs though)



Sure you can say Doc was throwing longer but that’s also a product of the hitters he was facing and makeup of bullpens. Transport peak Degrom to 2985 and he can go 8-9 innings cause he may give up 2 base runners per 9 innings. And posts a sub .5 ERA with 20+ K/9

Degrom only threw 92 innings that year. Was he amazing, sure but he also probably threw too hard for his body. Let's see him pitch at that level for 180 innings

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[mfw13]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

It’s a laughable comparison. Sure he only started 15 games but it’s the best 15 game stretch in baseball history and nothing comes close (2nd half Arietta and Pedro had some good runs though)

Don't forget Ubaldo Jimenez's 14-game stretch to start the 2010 season (pitching half his games at Coors Field, no less).....101 IP with a 1.15 ERA....

[JRX]

Originally Posted by rms13

That's the NY media for you. There hasn't been any other pitcher since I started watching basketball who had as much hype to start their career then Doc. He was a can't miss HOF after two seasons at 20 years old. Degrom's definitely not the greatest pitcher of all time but he had a great peak.

Yea the NY media overhypes guys, but Doc put up over 17 war his first two years by age 20. Nobody else is even close. They definitely burned him out, but him not doing drugs is one of the biggest what ifs.

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[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by JRX

Degrom only threw 92 innings that year. Was he amazing, sure but he also probably threw too hard for his body. Let's see him pitch at that level for 180 innings

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He did, he won back to back (should have been unanimous) cy young’s like 6 years removed from being a college short stops. Then he improved to best ever before getting hurt.

[Zauron]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Peak Gooden was 230 ERA+ and just under 9 K/9
Peak degrom was 375 ERA+ and jsut over 14 K/9

It’s a laughable comparison. Sure he only started 15 games but it’s the best 15 game stretch in baseball history and nothing comes close (2nd half Arietta and Pedro had some good runs though)

Sure you can say Doc was throwing longer but that’s also a product of the hitters he was facing and makeup of bullpens. Transport peak Degrom to 2985 and he can go 8-9 innings cause he may give up 2 base runners per 9 innings. And posts a sub .5 ERA with 20+ K/9

Are we really anointing a guy who has barely pitched in 3 years the greatest of all time?

Peak DeGrom couldn't even last a full season, why would he last a full season in 1985? Yes, DeGrom was unbelievable in 2021, but he only played barely half a season and didn't even reach 100 innings pitched. He's awesome, but man his arm barely lasts anymore. I can't rely on him.

I feel like since he tried to ramp up his velocity he basically screwed up his arm.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Peak Gooden was 230 ERA+ and just under 9 K/9
Peak degrom was 375 ERA+ and jsut over 14 K/9

It’s a laughable comparison. Sure he only started 15 games but it’s the best 15 game stretch in baseball history and nothing comes close (2nd half Arietta and Pedro had some good runs though)

Sure you can say Doc was throwing longer but that’s also a product of the hitters he was facing and makeup of bullpens. Transport peak Degrom to 2985 and he can go 8-9 innings cause he may give up 2 base runners per 9 innings. And posts a sub .5 ERA with 20+ K/9

And all this had you convinced deGrom was the greatest pitcher of all-time? The fact he can barely stay healthy anymore is why it’s doltish to proclaim such things.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by Zauron

Are we really anointing a guy who has barely pitched in 3 years the greatest of all time?

Peak DeGrom couldn't even last a full season, why would he last a full season in 1985?.

He would look like Steve Nebraksa. Just 12 pitch innings and cruise through 7-8 innings.

To be clear when I say he’s the best ever I don’t mean he’s had best career of all time or anything close to it.

Just if you needed a pitcher to throw 1 game and could pick peak any pitcher from history it’s not Pedro, it’s not Koufax, it’s Degrom and it’s not close


If he does manage to stay healthy for a full season then he finishes with 3+ cy young’s and a 4th season which was the best 1/2 year run for a pitcher in history of baseball/. That’s not being kept out of the HOF.

Or he’s just healthy this year and can easily add on a WS MVP

[JRX]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

He did, he won back to back (should have been unanimous) cy young’s like 6 years removed from being a college short stops. Then he improved to best ever before getting hurt.

Well no, he had an era+ of 218 one year, 169 the next. Neither anywhere close to the 373. He probably should just transition to being an elite reliever. He has 1 full season with an era+ over 200, pedro averaged 213 over 7 seasons and 1400 innings which is more innings than degroms entire career. Let that sink in, it's crazy.

I loved watching degrom pitch that year, but the guy is made of glass. He seemed to have found a way to perfect throwing harder and harder each year which is abnormal, but it also appears is muscles, tendons, and ligaments can't sustain it over a full season.

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[JRX]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

He would look like Steve Nebraksa. Just 12 pitch innings and cruise through 7-8 innings.



To be clear when I say he’s the best ever I don’t mean he’s had best career of all time or anything close to it.



Just if you needed a pitcher to throw 1 game and could pick peak any pitcher from history it’s not Pedro, it’s not Koufax, it’s Degrom and it’s not close

Well you'd need at least 2 pitchers since it's unlikely degrom goes 9. That year he went 9 once and had 109 pitches. That was the only start he threw 100 pitches that season. What's really wild is he has only thrown 100 or more pitches twice in the last three seasons.

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[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

He would look like Steve Nebraksa. Just 12 pitch innings and cruise through 7-8 innings.

To be clear when I say he’s the best ever I don’t mean he’s had best career of all time or anything close to it.

Just if you needed a pitcher to throw 1 game and could pick peak any pitcher from history it’s not Pedro, it’s not Koufax, it’s Degrom and it’s not close


If he does manage to stay healthy for a full season then he finishes with 3+ cy young’s and a 4th season which was the best 1/2 year run for a pitcher in history of baseball/. That’s not being kept out of the HOF.

Or he’s just healthy this year and can easily add on a WS MVP

Sandy Koufax is the answer


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[no10pin]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

if Degrom can have 2 healthy seasons (possibly just 1 full healthy season) he is a lock. In his prime, he's the best pitcher of all time, that gets in

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Peak Gooden was 230 ERA+ and just under 9 K/9
Peak degrom was 375 ERA+ and jsut over 14 K/9

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Just if you needed a pitcher to throw 1 game and could pick peak any pitcher from history it’s not Pedro, it’s not Koufax, it’s Degrom and it’s not close

LOL, come on man, DeGrom was amazing for a few years there, but are you really claiming he had the highest peak of all time because of a 92-inning season where he didn't pitch after the all-star break?

I'm sure we can find some pretty incredible 92 inning stretches if that's all it takes.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

He would look like Steve Nebraksa. Just 12 pitch innings and cruise through 7-8 innings.

To be clear when I say he’s the best ever I don’t mean he’s had best career of all time or anything close to it.

Just if you needed a pitcher to throw 1 game and could pick peak any pitcher from history it’s not Pedro, it’s not Koufax, it’s Degrom and it’s not close


If he does manage to stay healthy for a full season then he finishes with 3+ cy young’s and a 4th season which was the best 1/2 year run for a pitcher in history of baseball/. That’s not being kept out of the HOF.

Or he’s just healthy this year and can easily add on a WS MVP

In the postseason give me Bumgarner, Gibson, or Schilling. Easy enough.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by no10pin

LOL, come on man, DeGrom was amazing for a few years there, but are you really claiming he had the highest peak of all time because of a 92-inning season where he didn't pitch after the all-star break?

I'm sure we can find some pretty incredible 92 inning stretches if that's all it takes.

Find a better 92 inning stretch ever (hint you cant):

but lets look at some all time stats for fun to see who should be in arugments for (lets call it greatest talent ever)

I'm only looking at modern starting pitchers (like 1940 on)

1. ERA+ 2nd all time behind Kershaw and ahead of Pedro

2. Career WHIP (not allowing people on best pretty good measure for whose best ever). Best of all time and only person in history of game that played after 1920 with career WHIP < 1 (only 2 others pre 1920)

3. K/9 3rd all time but will be 1st all time in 2-3 years.

So Degrom has K'd more batters faced then anyone ever, allowed less runs then basically anyone ever, and alloed less baserunners the then anyone ever and were out here comparing him to doc gooden and curt shilling

[JRX]

He's not the best of all time because he never pitches. Pedro's 7 year peak is more innings than Degroms entire career and peak Pedro blows him away and we are talking 1400 innings not 92. And you're right nobody has done what degrom did over 92 innings but they had just as good or better stretches over fewer innings, done that more than once, and were able to pitch full seasons.

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[ScooterD]

The first 90 innings of Fernando Venezuela’s career:

90 IP, 8 wins, 7 CGs, 6 shutouts, 1 SV, 0.40 ERA

I’m sure that there are advanced stats that say DeGrom’s stretch was more dominant, but he didn’t match the above in 90 consecutive innings

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Find a better 92 inning stretch ever (hint you cant):

but lets look at some all time stats for fun to see who should be in arugments for (lets call it greatest talent ever)

I'm only looking at modern starting pitchers (like 1940 on)

1. ERA+ 2nd all time behind Kershaw and ahead of Pedro

2. Career WHIP (not allowing people on best pretty good measure for whose best ever). Best of all time and only person in history of game that played after 1920 with career WHIP < 1 (only 2 others pre 1920)

3. K/9 3rd all time but will be 1st all time in 2-3 years.

So Degrom has K'd more batters faced then anyone ever, allowed less runs then basically anyone ever, and alloed less baserunners the then anyone ever and were out here comparing him to doc gooden and curt shilling

Bob Gibson had a 99 inning stretch with a .27 ERA.

I'm not saying that DeGrom hasn't been incredible when he's available to pitch, it's just ridiculous to call 15 starts a peak.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by JRX

He's not the best of all time because he never pitches. Pedro's 7 year peak is more innings than Degroms entire career and peak Pedro blows him away and we are talking 1400 innings not 92. And you're right nobody has done what degrom did over 92 innings but they had just as good or better stretches over fewer innings, done that more than once, and were able to pitch full seasons.

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Pedro is the best I've seen in my lifetime. There are people who crunch numbers and there are people who actually watch baseball and nobody who actually watches is going to say Degrom is the greatest of all time.

[jhssketchcards]

deGrom is the best for the time he pitched all time. Those couple of years are amazing.
Snell is amazing for two seasons.

Pedro, Maddux, Gibson, Seaver, W. Johnson, Kershaw, Spahn, etc dominated for decades at points. You have to dominate for more than 3-4 years to be all-time. What ifs don’t count


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[rms13]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

deGrom is the best for the time he pitched all time. Those couple of years are amazing.
Snell is amazing for two seasons.

Pedro, Maddux, Gibson, Seaver, W. Johnson, Kershaw, Spahn, etc dominated for decades at points. You have to dominate for more than 3-4 years to be all-time. What ifs don’t count


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Koufax was dominant for 5 years and a lot of people consider him the greatest of all time.

[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by rms13

Koufax was dominant for 5 years and a lot of people consider him the greatest of all time.

Koufax pitched in almost 2000 innings from 1961 to 1967 with 35 shutouts. Koufax’s 7 year stretch is better than most picthers careers. deGrom pitched in 1356 ip in 10 years with 2 shutouts.
deGroms conversation is always “what if”


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