Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?

[Chris P]

Originally Posted by Eckstein197

You think Bosh is going to be a HOFer?? There is no way. Love is also a stretch. Kyrie is way too young with so many years ahead to say he will be a HOFer.

Bosh is an absolute lock..multiple time star and two time champ...relatively speaking compared to other sports..the Basketball Hall of Fame is a bit easier to get in to

[Eckstein197]

Originally Posted by Noah

Wade took Shaq to a ring
Kobe took Shaq to a ring

Lebron couldn’t get Shaq a ring

Wait let's discuss Kobe taking Shag to a ring

2000 finals
Shaq- 38/16.7/2.3 and Finals MVP
Kobe- 15.6/4.6/4.2

2001 finals
Shaq- 33/15.8/4.8 and Finals MVP
Kobe- 24.6/7.8/5.8

2002 finals
Shaq-36.3/12.3/3.8 and Finals MVP
Kobe- 26.8/5.8/5.3

Where did Kobe carry Shaq???

[Eckstein197]

Originally Posted by Chris P

Bosh is an absolute lock..multiple time star and two time champ...relatively speaking compared to other sports..the Basketball Hall of Fame is a bit easier to get in to

You're right, I did not realize his probability was that high. I was wrong, I'll retract that statement

[BostonNut]

Originally Posted by Eckstein197

I understand winning does. MJ has 6 and LeBron has 3. That's 100% important. I'm saying finals record should not have as much importance because winning it all is all that matters

Someone with a severe sub .500 Finals record will never be my GOAT.

[Noah]

Originally Posted by Eckstein197

Wait let's discuss Kobe taking Shag to a ring

2000 finals
Shaq- 38/16.7/2.3 and Finals MVP
Kobe- 15.6/4.6/4.2

2001 finals
Shaq- 33/15.8/4.8 and Finals MVP
Kobe- 24.6/7.8/5.8

2002 finals
Shaq-36.3/12.3/3.8 and Finals MVP
Kobe- 26.8/5.8/5.3

Where did Kobe carry Shaq???

“Took shaq” nowhere did it say carried. If you want to dig deeper without knowing the story it is in my previous posts but a gentleman said lebron beat 20 something hall of famers, another gentleman said old hall of famers, original gentleman said saying he beat old hall of famers is an excuse.

I said Kobe and wade won with shaq why didn’t lebron if being old is not an excuse. Of course it was never answered but it is because lebron had an old shaq.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by dbird3312

I mean it’s not like bron doesn’t have numerous series/moments of putting his team on his back and willing them to a win in the playoffs.

Since you stated a couple Jordan big time playoff moments..

What about in 07 when bron carried one of the worst rosters ever to play in a finals series. Probably the worst. You know the roster who’s second highest leading scorer that playoff run was...Larry Hughes...with a whopping 8 points.

I quit reading after this stupidity. The Cavs were the #2 seed in the East. They had a solid roster. It is not like they were a 6,7 or 8 seed. They didn't have a losing record, they finished 3 games behind Detroit. I agree LeBron has had some great postseason performances. He has also had some stinkers, 2009 vs. Magic, 2010 vs. Celtics, 2011 vs. Mavs. That is the problem, not having a big series against a mediocre Pistons team.

[BGT Masters]

Everyone always remembers Lebron putting up the final 25 points to win game 5 of the Pistons E.C.F. series, but everyone who says Lebron had no help seem to forget the deciding game 6. Where a certain rookie named Daniel Gibson scored 30+ points on 9 FGS and like 20 in the 4th quarter to get them to the finals. Or maybe game 4 where he also chipped in 20+ points on 6 FG playing a major part in that victory as well.

Though Lebron did have some really good games that series he also had some terrible ones. Game 2 he shot 7-19 for 19 points losing in a close game. Also having a similar game 6 in which he was fortunate to have his dead weight help carry him.

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by BGT Masters

Everyone always remembers Lebron putting up the final 25 points to win game 5 of the Pistons E.C.F. series, but everyone who says Lebron had no help seem to forget the deciding game 6. Where a certain rookie named Daniel Gibson scored 30+ points on 9 FGS and like 20 in the 4th quarter to get them to the finals. Or maybe game 4 where he also chipped in 20+ points on 6 FG playing a major part in that victory as well.

Though Lebron did have some really good games that series he also had some terrible ones. Game 2 he shot 7-19 for 19 points losing in a close game. Also having a similar game 6 in which he was fortunate to have his dead weight help carry him.

why do people reference a playoff game here.... this play there.. in this instance here......... basketball is a 82 game season and likely 15-20 playoff games

michael jordan left the bulls to play baseball..... they won 55 games, the following year they won 47

add dennis rodman and jordan back... 72 wins.. thats a plus 20 wins by adding rodman and jordan to a team with a top 50 all time player and one of the best two way players in history


does anyone really think lebron wasn't worth 25-30 wins on most early cavs teams? does anyone think he wasn't worth 20-25 wins this season

lebron leaves the cavs are trash.... lebron leave miami and they are trash.... he makes the team he is on so much better regardless of the talent

in the big picture, referencing a shot or game here/there over a 20 year career is laughable when trying to pull him down

HOWEVER... i do think he was 100 percent responsible for the loss to dallas in the finals and that was over an entire series. the GOAT cannot cost his team a ring when he played on the better team. that series was unforgivable. nobody in that top 5 discussion ever lost a finals series to a team who was far inferior. for that reason lebron has a ceiling of number 2 in my mind

but to keep trying to pull him down because of one game here, one game there where the cavs were an inferior team.... i don't get it. jordan never won anything by himself... pippen and phil jackson were necessary, but jordan never lost anything when he was supposed to win.. in fact he never saw a game 7 when he was supposed to win... that is the only difference... lebron failed to take care of dallas, in the end i think that will be the sticking point

[Jasondr91]

Originally Posted by Noah

Kinda like the lebron fans that say Shaq was too old or brittle when he played with lebron?

Lebron had the most dominant big man ever and didn’t make the finals.

Gotta love lebron fans

He was only in year.....20? Seriously? You don’t really push this in real life do you?

Gotta love Lebron haters.....

[Jasondr91]

How many pages is this thread now?

[Noah]

Originally Posted by Jasondr91

He was only in year.....20? Seriously? You don’t really push this in real life do you?

Gotta love Lebron haters.....

Gotta love people that get all hurt and upset like a snowflake and don’t know what they are arguing about

You really want to be white knight huh

You failed...... doh

Might want to read my post about saying lebron is the best player in the league and should beat harden for mvp

Or my post that used shaq as an example to a gentleman that claimed people saying lebron beat old hall of famers was using age as an excuse

I simply asked said if age is not an excuse why didn’t lebron win with shaq when Kobe and wade did

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Jasondr91

How many pages is this thread now?

59 so far

[BGT Masters]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

why do people reference a playoff game here.... this play there.. in this instance here......... basketball is a 82 game season and likely 15-20 playoff games

michael jordan left the bulls to play baseball..... they won 55 games, the following year they won 47

add dennis rodman and jordan back... 72 wins.. thats a plus 20 wins by adding rodman and jordan to a team with a top 50 all time player and one of the best two way players in history


does anyone really think lebron wasn't worth 25-30 wins on most early cavs teams? does anyone think he wasn't worth 20-25 wins this season

lebron leaves the cavs are trash.... lebron leave miami and they are trash.... he makes the team he is on so much better regardless of the talent

in the big picture, referencing a shot or game here/there over a 20 year career is laughable when trying to pull him down

HOWEVER... i do think he was 100 percent responsible for the loss to dallas in the finals and that was over an entire series. the GOAT cannot cost his team a ring when he played on the better team. that series was unforgivable. nobody in that top 5 discussion ever lost a finals series to a team who was far inferior. for that reason lebron has a ceiling of number 2 in my mind

Because we are discussing him having no help from the Cavs team that went to the finals in 2007 when its not true at all. People were talking about his 25 straight points in game 5, but yet I cannot mention how a Rookie half the people on this board probably have never heard of carried the team game 4 and 6 which got them into the Finals? Kind of how these threads go. Last I looked getting 30 points in a deciding game to get to the finals is a big deal.

Since when is pointing out instances where Lebron actually had help to get to that first finals pulling him down? Because it doesn't fit some people's narrative?

[Noah]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

why do people reference a playoff game here.... this play there.. in this instance here......... basketball is a 82 game season and likely 15-20 playoff games

michael jordan left the bulls to play baseball..... they won 55 games, the following year they won 47

add dennis rodman and jordan back... 72 wins.. thats a plus 20 wins by adding rodman and jordan to a team with a top 50 all time player and one of the best two way players in history


does anyone really think lebron wasn't worth 25-30 wins on most early cavs teams? does anyone think he wasn't worth 20-25 wins this season

lebron leaves the cavs are trash.... lebron leave miami and they are trash.... he makes the team he is on so much better regardless of the talent

in the big picture, referencing a shot or game here/there over a 20 year career is laughable when trying to pull him down

HOWEVER... i do think he was 100 percent responsible for the loss to dallas in the finals and that was over an entire series. the GOAT cannot cost his team a ring when he played on the better team. that series was unforgivable. nobody in that top 5 discussion ever lost a finals series to a team who was far inferior. for that reason lebron has a ceiling of number 2 in my mind

but to keep trying to pull him down because of one game here, one game there where the cavs were an inferior team.... i don't get it. jordan never won anything by himself... pippen and phil jackson were necessary, but jordan never lost anything when he was supposed to win.. in fact he never saw a game 7 when he was supposed to win... that is the only difference... lebron failed to take care of dallas, in the end i think that will be the sticking point

I don’t have the time or energy to teach but

Bulls went from 55/27 and a ring in 93 to 47/35 in 94 and early exit but they traded and signed key players like kukoc, Kerr, Harper, longley and kept the same coach

Following year they were sitting at 23/25 before Jordan came back, once he came back they won 24 out of 34 and squeaked into the playoffs

Lebron leaves, multiple role players leave, bosh injured (played 44 games) Ray Allen retires

Heat went from 54/28 to 37/45 after losing lebron, bosh half games, Ray Allen, Norris Cole played 40 something games, they lost other key guys but they slip my mind right now

Heat got a lot worse and it was only 17 game difference after lebron left

Can’t really compare him leaving the Cavs the first time, I think only 5 guys that were lebrons teammates finished that next season with the Cavs and they had a new coach

Edit————-here is the others the heat lost after lebron left
Shane battier, James Johnson, Rashard Lewis

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by BGT Masters

Because we are discussing him having no help from the Cavs team that went to the finals in 2007 when its not true at all. People were talking about his 25 straight points in game 5, but yet I cannot mention how a Rookie half the people on this board probably have never heard of carried the team game 4 and 6 which got them into the Finals? Kind of how these threads go. Last I looked getting 30 points in a deciding game to get to the finals is a big deal.

Since when is pointing out instances where Lebron actually had help to get to that first finals pulling him down? Because it doesn't fit some people's narrative?

That’s their move. They like to look back at Jordan and say well he he had a top 50 player or such and such Hall of Famer.

And talk about it in terms of talent.

They ignore the many many big performances his teammates have put up over the years. 30 points is help. But Gibson is a name no one will remember so it gets lost.

6/9 Finals Lebron has had plenty of help and has managed a less than .500 record but I’ve still yet to see anybody with an explanation for that one.

[Round Mound]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

6/9 Finals Lebron has had plenty of help and has managed a less than .500 record but I’ve still yet to see anybody with an explanation for that one.

I really don't understand. I seems like losing the NBA Finals 6 times against Team USA or against the 92-93 Mavs is exactly the same....

Again.

Individual accolades.

Team accomplishments.

[gameissued]

That Finals record stat is such a poor argument I hear too often. Getting there is a GREAT thing.. most players are 0/0. The record for seasons representing their confernce in the Finals..

* Michael Jordan 6/15.. seriously should have had way more.
* LeBron James 9/15.. eight straight taking multiple teams!

Jordan's teams missed the Playoffs or got bounced all of those other seasons.. LoL that's 9 seasons of pure losing. LeBron should have lost to the Pistons in 2007 for a better Finals record.. knowing he'd be up against the veteran Spurs.

Yep thats what it sounds like hearing it from on the other end.

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

6/9 Finals Lebron has had plenty of help and has managed a less than .500 record but I’ve still yet to see anybody with an explanation for that one.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by gameissued

That Finals record stat is such a poor argument I hear too often. Getting there is a GREAT thing.. most players are 0/0. The record for seasons representing their confernce in the Finals..

* Michael Jordan 6/15.. seriously should have had way more.
* LeBron James 9/15.. eight straight taking multiple teams!

Jordan's teams missed the Playoffs or got bounced all of those other seasons.. LoL that's 9 seasons of pure losing. LeBron should have lost to the Pistons in 2007 for a better Finals record.. knowing he'd be up against the veteran Spurs.

Yep thats what it sounds like hearing it from on the other end.

Lol, pure losing. Is that a new win loss phenomenon? Do you work for ESPN?

Lebron has less pure losses than Jordan?

Representing their conference

You guys are hysterical.

It’s actually 6/11 for Jordan. He shouldn’t have been expected to win when he missed almost the whole year being injured, a year and a half playing baseball, or 2 years with the Wiz as an old man and partially injured.

See, I give Lebron credit in 07 and 15 and this year as being not his fault/nothing he could do

But I guess you all can’t do that for MJ

But even after all that I will admit, Lebron is better at finishing 2nd than MJ
Just not better at finishing 1st

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by Round Mound

I really don't understand. I seems like losing the NBA Finals 6 times against Team USA or against the 92-93 Mavs is exactly the same....

Again.

Individual accolades.

Team accomplishments.

So the team and not Lebron laid an egg against the Team USA like 3 seed Mavs in 2011 when they were going to win not 5-6-7 titles?

And then he says “it’s just basketball”

[Round Mound]

Individual accolades.

Team accomplishments.

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by Round Mound

Individual accolades.

Team accomplishments.

This keeps getting posted and it is correct. If you absolutely must crown a ‘GOAT’ then it should mix those two things and should include the players impact on the history of the game imo.

Still, what you weigh more strongly or how you measure that last piece are all subjective and in part will be informed by which player you like more lol.

Why can’t this be like baseball, people understand the game has changed. Ruth is probably far and away the consensus pick because he has that mix of insane individual achievement, incredible team success and a mythical presence over the sport. People understand there are arguments for Mays, Bonds, Etc etc and talk more in eras and tiers.

I would like to think of basketball in the same light. Instead we have almost 60 pages of folks trying to tear down or marginalize the accomplishements of the games greats or just flat out ignoring others (KAREEM!!!!!!!!!!!!) to force their guy as #1.

There is no question Michael Jordan is the first name that comes to mind when most people hear the word basketball. His career and legacy cannot be torn down no matter how hard some try and no mater what stats ESPN forces down your throat.

Likewise there is no doubt that for a newer generation of fan that name will be Lebron James. He likewise has had and is having an incredible career and while I may not hold it in as high esteem as others, you can’t marginalize what he has accomplished and hold him to the standards of eras past. Too much has changed.

I like to rank the players I saw. Nothing wrong with that since I have been fortunate to have seen Magic and Bird in my childhood, MJ in my teens Kobe in my 20’s and lebron in my 30s. I’ve seen Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan and even some Kareem so I can make comments and form opinions on what I watched but what i like in basketball and value is likely different. The ages I saw these players at absolutely impacts it.

This thread and some of these ridiculous arguments on both sides and this Fox News spin isn’t changing anyone’s mind. At the end of the day we all like basketball and share a common hobby.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by gameissued

That Finals record stat is such a poor argument I hear too often. Getting there is a GREAT thing.. most players are 0/0. The record for seasons representing their confernce in the Finals..

* Michael Jordan 6/15.. seriously should have had way more.
* LeBron James 9/15.. eight straight taking multiple teams!

Jordan's teams missed the Playoffs or got bounced all of those other seasons.. LoL that's 9 seasons of pure losing. LeBron should have lost to the Pistons in 2007 for a better Finals record.. knowing he'd be up against the veteran Spurs.

Yep thats what it sounds like hearing it from on the other end.

Not this ignorant line of thinking again. 6-0 finals record is all that matters. This point has been made before. Once Jordan got past the great teams in the East, Celtics and Pistons, to make the Finals, he never lost. His dad was murdered, so he took 1.9 years off and came back to complete a run of 6 straight championships. The whole argument for Jordan as GOAT is that when he hit his peak, Michael Jordan was unbeatable.

Over the same 8 year "peak" period LeBron has made 8 straight finals, but has had a losing record there. He has got to pick his teammates. He has not had to deal with a parent and closest mentor being murdered. LeBron has had the easier path, yet has failed where Jordan succeeded. There is absolutely no argument for LeBron over Jordan. All you have to do is look at the scoreboard.

That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy watching LeBron playing. That doesn't mean I don't root for LeBron. That doesn't mean I don't collect LeBron. LeBron is one of the greatest basketball players of all time. It doesn't matter if he ends up top 5 or just top 10. I have watched too many great players. LeBron's career isn't over. What I don't enjoy are posts that show a lack of knowledge about basketball or the NBA, but this is the internet.

[seabass97166]

Bill Russell must have been the GOAT.
11-1 in the Finals and 10-0 in game 7s.

Seriously though MJ and LeBron 1a, 1b pick your poison nobody is right or wrong and don’t forget Wilt

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by seabass97166

Bill Russell must have been the GOAT.
11-1 in the Finals and 10-0 in game 7s.

Seriously though MJ and LeBron 1a, 1b pick your poison nobody is right or wrong and don’t forget Wilt

And 2 NCAA titles at a school that means nothing. Most valuable player of all time.

[dbird3312]

Originally Posted by rats60

I quit reading after this stupidity. The Cavs were the #2 seed in the East. They had a solid roster. It is not like they were a 6,7 or 8 seed. They didn't have a losing record, they finished 3 games behind Detroit. I agree LeBron has had some great postseason performances. He has also had some stinkers, 2009 vs. Magic, 2010 vs. Celtics, 2011 vs. Mavs. That is the problem, not having a big series against a mediocre Pistons team.

“Stupidity,” haha I love how personal some petiole make these discussions. I say lebron has had great playoff performances, and that makes me stupid haha. Okay bud

You don’t really think 2010 against the magic was a down point in Lebrons career do you? If you do, then you sir are the one displaying the stupidity. Didn’t lebron average like 38 that series and have an incredible buzzer beater 3 pointer?? Yes he did. Sooo not sure why or how you’d think that’s a black mark on Lebrons resume. Game 1 of that series bron had 49 in one of the most spectacular offensive displays I have ever seen.

Also you said something about lebron having a solid roster. Haha if you watched basketball at all from 2003-2009, you’d know Lebrons supporting cast for his entire first stint in Cleveland was less than subpar. Again, he had playoff runs where his second leading scorer was Larry Hughes with 8 ppg. His second best player he ever had his first seven years in the league was hands down mo Williams.

And Jordan never had playoff series where he came up short? I believe he got eliminated in the first round 3 times. How many first round playoff exits does bron have again??