Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?

[Frog]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

You blame the team when he loses. You give him all the credit if they win. That's not a team mentality.

Isn't this also the Jordan argument? When Jordan went 1-9 in the playoffs without Scottie, it's all about him being by himself and carrying the team... When he won it's JORDAN is 6-0, HE carried the load, HE couldn't be stopped. Looked like he was stopped plenty before he got his team.

[DajuanWagner]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

howd he do in OT when the game was basically restarted from scratch?

#hewastired

[Noah]

Originally Posted by Frog

Isn't this also the Jordan argument? When Jordan went 1-9 in the playoffs without Scottie, it's all about him being by himself and carrying the team... When he won it's JORDAN is 6-0, HE carried the load, HE couldn't be stopped. Looked like he was stopped plenty before he got his team.

Jordan stopped by the Celtics with bird, and pistons with isiah is hardly comparable to lebron being stopped by jameer Nelson

[DajuanWagner]

Originally Posted by Noah

Jordan stopped by the Celtics with bird, and pistons with isiah is hardly comparable to lebron being stopped by jameer Nelson

Who????

[Hallco]

Below Delly, above JR Smith.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Noah

Jordan stopped by the Celtics with bird, and pistons with isiah is hardly comparable to lebron being stopped by jameer Nelson

Sounds like excuses. So there were teams too good for MJ to beat? Who would have thought, teammates and competition play an important role in team sports.

[the27guy]

I’ve been in the camp that believes lebron is still outside the top 5. Only just, though. #1 for me is easy. 2-7 or 8 is not. I have lebron at 6.

Last night is the type of game that makes me feel like I’m underrating him though. He put the cavs in wmposiotokctocwin that game. Made the pass that led to the free throws, and then a very good free throw shooter missed a free throw. Ugh.

Lebron has his warts. But man, he was unfreakingbelievable last night. I want to rank him higher. I want him to beat the warriors so bad.

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by Frog

Because there's context. Did you take defense into account? Did you take competition into account? You can't just say "Oh LeBron's teammates put up good stats" especially when you look at the finals competition. Didn't Love average 8 and 6 in the finals?

He said if Lebron had talent that was remotely close to what Jordan had, that the games wouldn't be close. We are saying Kyrie and Love fall within the "remotely close" category.

[Frog]

Originally Posted by Noah

Jordan stopped by the Celtics with bird, and pistons with isiah is hardly comparable to lebron being stopped by jameer Nelson

You mean the series where LeBron averaged damn near 40 points and hit the game winner? You're going to say he got stopped by Nelson? Hahaha alright man, I see where this is going. Good one. Nice.

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by Frog

Isn't this also the Jordan argument? When Jordan went 1-9 in the playoffs without Scottie, it's all about him being by himself and carrying the team... When he won it's JORDAN is 6-0, HE carried the load, HE couldn't be stopped. Looked like he was stopped plenty before he got his team.

Jordan took the big shots. Jordan pushed Scottie to get better. He needed his teammates, but when it came down to finishing the game off, he handled it.

[Frog]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

Jordan took the big shots. Jordan pushed Scottie to get better. He needed his teammates, but when it came down to finishing the game off, he handled it.

Touching indeed. LeBron's playoff record for game winners laughs at this.

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by Frog

Touching indeed. LeBron's playoff record for game winners laughs at this.

Clearly you aren't checking the stats for the finals.

[Longshot18]

If you want to say Jordan was the goat, at least come up with valid arguments. This has turned into less about how great Jordan was and more about picking on Lebron.


* LeBron was accused of playing "hero ball" and not getting his team mates involved. Interestingly he shot 59% from the field, his team mates 37%. He finished with 8 assists that easily could have been 12-13 if team mates were hitting wide open 3's


* On the flip side, there has been critiques that he passed the ball on the final play to Hill. Of course, this ignores that in several of the Bulls runs, Jordan did not in fact take the final shot. The most obvious examples were against the Suns where Kerr hit a shot to tie, and Paxson hit the shot to win.

* There is all this talk about how great of a leader Jordan was, and how he pushed his team mates to greatness. Uhhhh. he punched a team mate in the face (Kerr) in practice. Imagine if that kind of thing happened today from anyone, let alone someone like LeBron. It would mar his legacy forever. But from the guys in Jordan's camp, this incident is brushed off, ignored, minimized. There is literally this mythical legacy about Jordan that would make you think he won every playoff series, made every last second shot, was the best leader ever......so much has been distorted over time. And that's not to say Jordan was not great, elite, a generational talent. He was. He deserves every bit of appreciation for the great player he was. But all too often there is this distortion of facts by some that he walked on water.


Its stuff like this that shows, literally, there is nothing LeBron can do right. Which is it- was he playing hero ball, or too passive? Can't be both ways, but it always seems people want it that way. And if he had missed the last shot and fired a 3 pointer, people would have said he was wrong for not passing or not driving.


They were only in that game because he was so much better than anyone else on the court, a court that had multiple HOFers on the other side, that they were in the game.


People who point out that LeBron is 3-6, and likely 3-7 in finals, are just making a solitary stand alone comment with literally no context. Games are not won solely by players. There is always much more to the story. And last night was a text book example.

LeBron goes for 51-8-8. And they likely win if a) the refs don't make a nearly unprescidented overturn of a block/charge. One that not even NBA rules experts agree on by the way. b) JR Smith has a hoops IQ above 5. His blunders at the end of the half, and end of game, will likely go down as top 5 all time stupid plays in sports histories, esepecially if you combine them, c) George Hill makes a FT.

Yet, too many just want to spout numbers to try and "prove" their point and ignore every bit of context and will point out Jordan went 6-0, LeBron did not. But if you look at last nights came and believe that loss was on LeBron or that LeBron did not do super human things to put his team in position to win, you literally have no clue about team sports.

FWIW- I don't think LeBron is the clear GOAT. I have advocated that it's silly to think any single player sits alone on a Mantle. So this is not about demeaning Jordan. Its about the sophomoric and all too often contradictory logic that is used, not in an effort to pump up MJ, but to demean others.

[pgisback]

This is all one needs to see, to see who is the actual greatest basketball player to play the game. The two greatest players at their peak on the biggest stage. Not the greatest team to ever play, but the greatest basketball player. And it looks like hiss 2018 Finals performance will be topping these ones. Averaging more points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks... while shooting better from the field and 3 pt land. Not sure how anyone can argue this incredible fact.

[Frog]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

Clearly you aren't checking the stats for the finals.

I swear, with Jordan fans there's always circumstances made up to just leave LeBron behind lol. So because LeBron has the most playoff game winners, it doesn't count for him taking the big shots because Jordan has more in the finals specifically? You said Jordan took the big shots. LeBron has more playoff game winners. He took the big shots too. Are you going to use 2 circumstances where 2 of LeBron's teammates hit big shots then ignore when Jordans teammates did the same? Saying LeBron doesn't take the big shots is laughable. This isn't 2007 bro.

Originally Posted by pgisback

This is all one needs to see, to see who is the actual greatest basketball player to play the game. The two greatest players at their peak on the biggest stage. Not the greatest team to ever play, but the greatest basketball player. And it looks like hiss 2018 Finals performance will be topping these ones. Averaging more points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks... while shooting better from the field and 3 pt land. Not sure how anyone can argue this incredible fact.

Beautiful. But hey, they're too nostalgic to even read this.

[Noah]

Originally Posted by Frog

You mean the series where LeBron averaged damn near 40 points and hit the game winner? You're going to say he got stopped by Nelson? Hahaha alright man, I see where this is going. Good one. Nice.

You mean 86 when Jordan lost the Celtics averaging above 40?

Lmao 44ppg, 6apg, 6rpg, 2spg, 1bpg 50% shooting

63 Point game against bird, McHale, parrish, ainge and Walton

Yea some how I think losing to 5 hall of famers is better than losing jameer Nelson

Hahaha I see why you didn’t want to dig deeper

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by Longshot18

If you want to say Jordan was the goat, at least come up with valid arguments. This has turned into less about how great Jordan was and more about picking on Lebron.


* LeBron was accused of playing "hero ball" and not getting his team mates involved. Interestingly he shot 59% from the field, his team mates 37%. He finished with 8 assists that easily could have been 12-13 if team mates were hitting wide open 3's


* On the flip side, there has been critiques that he passed the ball on the final play to Hill. Of course, this ignores that in several of the Bulls runs, Jordan did not in fact take the final shot. The most obvious examples were against the Suns where Kerr hit a shot to tie, and Paxson hit the shot to win.


Its stuff like this that shows, literally, there is nothing LeBron can do right. Which is it- was he playing hero ball, or too passive? Can't be both ways, but it always seems people want it that way. And if he had missed the last shot and fired a 3 pointer, people would have said he was wrong for not passing or not driving.


They were only in that game because he was so much better than anyone else on the court, a court that had multiple HOFers on the other side, that they were in the game.


People who point out that LeBron is 3-6, and likely 3-7 in finals, are just making a solitary stand alone comment with literally no context. Games are not won solely by players. There is always much more to the story. And last night was a text book example.

LeBron goes for 51-8-8. And they likely win if a) the refs don't make a nearly unprescidented overturn of a block/charge. One that not even NBA rules experts agree on by the way. b) JR Smith has a hoops IQ above 5. His blunders at the end of the half, and end of game, will likely go down as top 5 all time stupid plays in sports histories, esepecially if you combine them, c) George Hill makes a FT.

Yet, too many just want to spout numbers to try and "prove" their point and ignore every bit of context and will point out Jordan went 6-0, LeBron did not. But if you look at last nights came and believe that loss was on LeBron you literally have no clue about team sports.

FWIW- I don't think LeBron is the clear GOAT. I have advocated that it's silly to think any single player sits alone on a Mantle. So this is not about demeaning Jordan. Its about the sophomoric and all too often contradictory logic that is used, not in an effort to pump up MJ, but to demean others.

The little things we are pointing out is what makes the difference between being the GOAT or #2.

Jordan is the goat because he's 6-0, hit big shots/game winners on the biggest stage in basketball. Once he tasted winning, he never stopped (minus his 17 game comeback year and of course the wizards). Yes he had Kerr and Paxson hit game winners, but he also had 3 game winners and a last second shot to force OT. Lebron has never made a shot in the final 25 seconds to tie or win a finals game.

you point out JRs mistake, Hills free throw mistake, the refs. But you fail to mention 0-4 in the OT for Lebron. That matters. He was great last night, no doubt.

I can't speak for all people who give Lebron a hard time....but I want to see him make the big finals shots. I want him to hit the game winner in the finals. We want to see greatness for 48 minutes (+OT). Not just for 47 minutes and 30 seconds.

[Frog]

Originally Posted by Noah

You mean 86 when Jordan lost the Celtics averaging above 40?

Lmao 44ppg, 6apg, 6rpg, 2spg, 1bpg 50% shooting

63 Point game against bird, McHale, parrish, ainge and Walton

Yea some how I think losing to 5 hall of famers is better than losing jameer Nelson

Hahaha I see why you didn’t want to dig deeper

I'm not faulting him for losing to the Celtics... You guys are saying when LeBron loses his fans say it's about the team, but the one instance you brought up is not good for that argument lmao. Just how Jordan carried and lost, the same goes for LeBron. Sometimes a team is just better. But yeah please tell me more about how Jordan got smacked by Jerry Sichting in 1986... Tragic

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by Frog

Isn't this also the Jordan argument? When Jordan went 1-9 in the playoffs without Scottie, it's all about him being by himself and carrying the team... When he won it's JORDAN is 6-0, HE carried the load, HE couldn't be stopped. Looked like he was stopped plenty before he got his team.

When did MJ lose in the finals? Wait.. because he didnt, you need to revert the argument to where he did lose right?

All that matters in basketball is winning. Winning chips. So lets focus on where that happens, In the finals.

IF 100% of the weight is on the star when he wins, then 100% of the weight of losing must be on him as well. You cant have one without the other.

[Frog]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

When did MJ lose in the finals? Wait.. because he didnt, you need to revert the argument to where he did lose right?

All that matters in basketball is winning. Winning chips. So lets focus on where that happens, In the finals.

Because before he had a team he couldn't make it out of the first round haha, how was he supposed to make it to the finals when he couldn't make the second round?

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by Frog

I swear, with Jordan fans there's always circumstances made up to just leave LeBron behind lol. So because LeBron has the most playoff game winners, it doesn't count for him taking the big shots because Jordan has more in the finals specifically? You said Jordan took the big shots. LeBron has more playoff game winners. He took the big shots too. Are you going to use 2 circumstances where 2 of LeBron's teammates hit big shots then ignore when Jordans teammates did the same? Saying LeBron doesn't take the big shots is laughable. This isn't 2007 bro.



Beautiful. But hey, they're too nostalgic to even read this.

Lebron is 0-6 on game tying or go ahead shots in the finals with under 30 seconds or so left. That stat doesn't mean anything to you?

[imbluestreak23]

LeBron is a perfect example of how history and truth can be misconstrued/warped over time.

Really starting to feel sorry for dead presidents and dead NBA greats for how they are viewed as time passes. Unfortunate that humans are prisoners of the moment, or lack the ability to read between 3 stat lines.

[csrockerzero]

It's pretty clear that the argument has come down to stats versus greatness/winning. When it comes to greatness, some of it is intangible and some of it is subjective. LeBron still has years left in his career so his legacy is ongoing. Both MJ and LeBron have revolutionized the NBA in their own ways. I still think MJ has the edge when you look at the big picture. But like I said, everything is not yet written for LBJ.

[Frog]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

Lebron is 0-6 on game tying or go ahead shots in the finals with under 30 seconds or so left. That stat doesn't mean anything to you?

I tend to look at playoffs as a whole. Because it doesn't fit my agenda to leave out every little thing than what supports my argument. Seems as if Jordan fans like to do that. Leave out everything LeBron is better at.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Frog

Beautiful. But hey, they're too nostalgic to even read this.

Yep, it's what sold me. What he's done the last 3 seasons to me is the highest level of basketball I've ever seen. And the stats back up what my eyes are seeing. The Bulls were a well oiled machine on offense and defense. Just one of if not the greatest teams ever. Lebron however, is the best basketball player to step foot on a court in the history of the game. It's amazing to watch. And he's doing this against 4 all stars in their prime, two league MVPs and a defensive player of the year.