Elly De La Cruz

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

I agree that basic stats and your eyes will tell you everything you need to know. I also understand that discussing a player's value on a message board is not always conducive to a 10 page dissertation on my personal analysis of each and every basic statistical category coupled with my personal eye test. So I'm not so ignorant as to write off any statistic that compiles those stats into a more useable form for a short discussion just because I don't agree with part of the formula. I'm smart enough to look at the WAR formula, recognize where I disagree with it, and discuss it's shortfalls on a particular player with specific stats that I think are more relevant. If you aren't smart enough to do that, then go ahead and just dismiss any discussion involving WAR outright. But if that is the case, I seriously question your ability to compile those basic stats into a valid and relevant conclusion by yourself in the first place.

The internet "lawyer" loves writing paragraphs

[cardozo]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

The internet "lawyer" loves writing paragraphs

I’ll wait for the movie to come out.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

The internet "lawyer" loves writing paragraphs

The internet troll loves one line hot takes with no real intellectual substance.

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

The internet troll loves one line hot takes with no real intellectual substance.

You get off on arguing over nothing, most of the time. You just jump from one argument to the next. Just because you write paragraphs that most of the time truly lead to nothing doesn't make you some God of debating. You're literally arguing over something you said you yourself see as flawd. If someone needs to use a flawd system in order to make their point, then maybe they don't know as much about the games and players that they're arguing for or against. This is my last response to you on this subject.

[seanbros55]

Yet another thread turned into a cesspool.

#thanksBO

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

1.2 not 0.7

That's in a month and a half.

And he was at 0.7 the day before. Which tells you something that he has the ability to gain half a win in a day.

For context let’s extrapolate his performance (which is prob higher then it should be for war from running good with Babip but whatever) and say he’s basically posting a 3.5 war for his 21 year old season. That’s clearly very good but it’s certainly not some once in a generation type season

Trout posted almost 11 war season at 21, tatis posted 7 war in 150 games, Soto posted a 4.7 at 20 and 6+ pace at 21. Acuna posted 4 and 5 wat seasons etc etc…. Carroll on pace for 7 this year and had 5 war pace last year at 21. Julio posted a 6 war at 21


So from a performance standpoint, he’s basically Anthony volpe production but priced liked the guys above. He is also selling at/above almost all the guys listed above

[ThoseBackPages]

so is the main gripe that his prices are "too high" vs other players?

you are concerned about how others are spending their money?

are you poor?

what's the issue here?

why are 2023 Topps Chrome Hobby boxes over $200?

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

so is the main gripe that his prices are "too high" vs other players?

you are concerned about how others are spending their money?

are you poor?

what's the issue here?

why are 2023 Topps Chrome Hobby boxes over $200?

There’s no gripe. People can buy what they want and spend what they want, I really don’t care. I hope he turns into Mike trout level players as it’s good for baseball and fun to watch

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

so is the main gripe that his prices are "too high" vs other players?

you are concerned about how others are spending their money?

are you poor?

what's the issue here?

why are 2023 Topps Chrome Hobby boxes over $200?

Well, Elly isn't in 2023 Topps Chrome, so I don't think he has anything to do with that.

[towerymt]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Well, Elly isn't in 2023 Topps Chrome, so I don't think he has anything to do with that.

Yeah, so why so expensive if The Star is not in it???

[zworykin]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Well, Elly isn't in 2023 Topps Chrome, so I don't think he has anything to do with that.

(pssst... that was his point...)

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by zworykin

(pssst... that was his point...)

2023 Topps Chrome is price where it is because you have rookies whose performance is actually living up to the hype. Corbin Carroll is looking like he's going to be top 5 in the MVP race. Rutschman and Henderson have played well all season for Baltimore. Harris II has shaken off a rough start. Bello is having a solid year for Boston. Spencer Steer has been good for Cincinatti.

You have rookies playing well. The box isn't priced like anyone is some generational talent. Those players aren't being hyped like they are the greatest player to ever play the game. Performance is driving prices. Elly's performance is not the driving force behind his prices.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

You get off on arguing over nothing, most of the time. You just jump from one argument to the next. Just because you write paragraphs that most of the time truly lead to nothing doesn't make you some God of debating. You're literally arguing over something you said you yourself see as flawd. If someone needs to use a flawd system in order to make their point, then maybe they don't know as much about the games and players that they're arguing for or against. This is my last response to you on this subject.

Of course you missed the point.

I am not arguing in favor of WAR as some be all end all statistic. I agree it is flawed. My point is every single way of compiling statistics and drawing conclusions from those statistics is flawed. Whether it's your "eye test", traditional slash lines, or WAR.

My point was that I'm sick of every single thread where someone uses WAR we have to see your stupid comments about how people with real baseball knowledge don't need it. I was making the point that intelligent people can utilize formulas such as WAR, recognize its weaknesses and still have a civilized and productive discussion around a player's value with WAR included. The fact that you hate any use of WAR to help analyze statistics and player value and not only reject any discussion that includes it outright and repeatedly rail against its use to the point of putting your sarcasm in your signature, tells me a lot about your interest in actually discussing anything. And a person with no interest in legitimate discussion, just posting snide comments about things you disagree with is nothing more than a troll. So I hope you don't respond.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

For context let’s extrapolate his performance (which is prob higher then it should be for war from running good with Babip but whatever) and say he’s basically posting a 3.5 war for his 21 year old season. That’s clearly very good but it’s certainly not some once in a generation type season

Trout posted almost 11 war season at 21, tatis posted 7 war in 150 games, Soto posted a 4.7 at 20 and 6+ pace at 21. Acuna posted 4 and 5 wat seasons etc etc…. Carroll on pace for 7 this year and had 5 war pace last year at 21. Julio posted a 6 war at 21


So from a performance standpoint, he’s basically Anthony volpe production but priced liked the guys above. He is also selling at/above almost all the guys listed above

Why don't you go ahead and post Corbin Carroll's numbers since Elly came into the league on June 6th. I'll wait.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Why don't you go ahead and post Corbin Carroll's numbers since Elly came into the league on June 6th. I'll wait.

Your takeaway from that it to pick 1 of the 6 guys I’ve mentioned and then ask about his results from a 1 month sample over which he’s still been better then Elly?

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Why don't you go ahead and post Corbin Carroll's numbers since Elly came into the league on June 6th. I'll wait.

From June 6th on carrol has a WPA of 1.35 and elly has posted .51….

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Why don't you go ahead and post Corbin Carroll's numbers since Elly came into the league on June 6th. I'll wait.

Here you go.

.276 average, 11 hr, 38 runs, 32 rbi, 16 sb, 1 caught stealing , 20.1% k rate, 141 wRC+, .346 obp, .564 slg, 1.9 fWAR. 2 less games and 20 less plate appearances

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Your takeaway from that it to pick 1 of the 6 guys I’ve mentioned and then ask about his results from a 1 month sample over which he’s still been better then Elly?

He thinks he's a lawyer in real life. Draw your own conclusions from that.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

He thinks he's a lawyer in real life. Draw your own conclusions from that.

Who isn’t

[OhioLawyerF5]

Don't you all love cherrypicking statistics?

That was my point. You can take ranges of time from young player's stats and just about make them appear to be anything. Carroll is hitting .250 in july. Does that mean much? Elly gained .3 WAR in one day. Does that mean he's going to post 3 WAR in the next 10 games? Of course not. This whole thing is stupid when dealing with such small samples. At this point in his career, the tools still outweigh the numbers that have little statistical significance at this point. For people who want to trash Elly, they can find stats to support their position. For people who think he's amazing, they can find stats and splits to support their position. Some of us just watch the games and know what an elite baseball player looks like. We see that in Elly. A slump where you go 2-22 will have an outsized effect on your overall stats when you've played fewer than 50 games in your career. But you can take a period where he was hot and extrapolate that just the same.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

He thinks he's a lawyer in real life. Draw your own conclusions from that.

A message board troll has to repeatedly attack someone for what they do for a living. Draw your own conclusions from that.

[Rooftop]

How many times has Carroll been of SC Top 10?

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Don't you all love cherrypicking statistics?

Is it cherry picking to give stats from the day he was called up?

Is it cherry picking to point out that Elly has struck out in 30% of his ABs over multiple levels over the last 3 seasons?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Is it cherry picking to give stats from the day he was called up?

Is it cherry picking to point out that Elly has struck out in 30% of his ABs over multiple levels over the last 3 seasons?

That's the definition of cherry picking if you are drawing your conclusions from that one statistic.

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Is it cherry picking to give stats from the day he was called up?

Is it cherry picking to point out that Elly has struck out in 30% of his ABs over multiple levels over the last 3 seasons?

He's a Reds fan. He can sit here all day and all night doing this. He isn't in the Franco or Julio threads debating. He's in his favorites teams, 2nd best prospect thread.