QUESTONS for those who feel Tim Brady is the GOAT

[88horsepower]

Originally Posted by IamRalpho

So we punish Brady because he has better coaches than Manning? So Brady's 4 SB wins are less significant because Manning had worse coaches? Like I dont get that argument.

In the beginning, Manning had a MUCH better supporting cast. 2007 on, it has been towards Brady.

And Matt Cassell didnt lead the Patriots to the playoffs, I dont get using him to discount what Brady did? How many scrub QB's have gotten 11 wins in the league?

A lot.

I don't think coaching should discount what Brady has accomplished.

However, saying a lot of scrub QB's could have gotten 11 wins in the league, I don't agree with.

[Jameis1of1]

Originally Posted by RedSoxFan28

INTs aren't the only bad thing a QB can do.
Game Logs of Playoff losses without an interception:
19/42, 45% COMP, 227 Yards, 0 TD, 0 INT
17/32, 53% COMP, 194 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT
22/38, 58% COMP, 290 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT
25/ 42, 59% COMP, 310 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT
18/ 26, 69% COMP, 225 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT
26/ 46, 56% COMP, 211 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT

The three bolded red games are great games ... why would you include those in such a list?

[RedSoxFan28]

Originally Posted by Jameis1of1

The three bolded red games are great games ... why would you include those in such a list?

I wouldn't call those great.

[Jameis1of1]

Originally Posted by RedSoxFan28

I wouldn't call those great.

They're definitely not bad games.

If he averaged what he averaged in those 3 games over a 16 game regular season schedule he'd end up with a 61.3% completion rate, 4,400 yards, 16 TD's and 0 picks ... that would be a very, very good year.

[devo]

Originally Posted by RedSoxFan28

INTs aren't the only bad thing a QB can do.
Game Logs of Playoff losses without an interception:
19/42, 45% COMP, 227 Yards, 0 TD, 0 INT
17/32, 53% COMP, 194 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT
22/38, 58% COMP, 290 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT
25/ 42, 59% COMP, 310 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT
18/ 26, 69% COMP, 225 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT
26/ 46, 56% COMP, 211 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT

?????????

3 of those are solid games. And that's all you took from all of that info I posted? You purposely went out of your way to try and find the negatives. Typical Pats fan I guess.

[RedSoxFan28]

Originally Posted by devo

?????????

3 of those are solid games. And that's all you took from all of that info I posted? You purposely went out of your way to try and find the negatives. Typical Pats fan I guess.

Looking at those numbers, for a playoff game, can you say that Peyton should have won those games? I can't say that he should have. I'm not saying a QB can't post those numbers and win, but to think he deserved to win by those stats is crazy. Maybe the Jets game.
When you only have 1/6 games with a COMP% over 60%
and only 1/6 games with over 300 Yards
and 0/6 games with more than 1 TD
it's not surprising that he lost 6/6

[Jameis1of1]

Originally Posted by RedSoxFan28

Looking at those numbers, for a playoff game, can you say that Peyton should have won those games? I can't say that he should have. I'm not saying a QB can't post those numbers and win, but to think he deserved to win by those stats is crazy. Maybe the Jets game.
When you only have 1/6 games with a COMP% over 60%
and only 1/6 games with over 300 Yards
and 0/6 games with more than 1 TD
it's not surprising that he lost 6/6

Again, 61.3%, 4,400 yards, 16 TD's and ZERO picks ... that is a very, very good year and if Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson can be SB winning QB's you can't tell me those sort of numbers aren't good enough to win mere playoff games

[RedSoxFan28]

Originally Posted by RedSoxFan28

Looking at those numbers, for a playoff game, can you say that Peyton should have won those games? I can't say that he should have. I'm not saying a QB can't post those numbers and win, but to think he deserved to win by those stats is crazy. Maybe the Jets game.
When you only have 1/6 games with a COMP% over 60%
and only 1/6 games with over 300 Yards
and 0/6 games with more than 1 TD
it's not surprising that he lost 6/6

Originally Posted by Jameis1of1

Again, 61.3%, 4,400 yards, 16 TD's and ZERO picks ... that is a very, very good year and if Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson can be SB winning QB's you can't tell me those sort of numbers aren't good enough to win mere playoff games

See the bold.

[green4407]

Where's Elway on your list? He is the answer.

[Jameis1of1]

Originally Posted by RedSoxFan28

See the bold.

Again .... 61.3%, 4,400 yards, 16 TD's and ZERO picks ... and you're saying those numbers aren't "deserving" of wins? I think that's quite ridiculous honestly.

[meandsharon11]

My personal opinion of G.O.A.T. is a PLAYER, since we are judging a single person, who was/is in a class of their own. My idea of that is a player that could do as they wish and accomplish what they did regardless of the team around them. This completely throws out stat hoarders, titles and accolades including rings. So based on that this is who I consider to be in the conversation.

Please keep in mind this is opinion based and also based on my best knowledge of players throughout nfl history.

Also this list is in no particular order.

Barry Sanders
Randy Moss
Jim Brown
Jerry Rice
Dan Marino
Deacon Jones
Peyton Manning
Earl Campbell
Lawrence Taylor
Walter Payton
Deion Sanders


I'm sure there are some im forgetting at the moment, but these are the ones at the top of my head.

[tacoma34]

[tacoma34]

[Jameis1of1]

Originally Posted by meandsharon11

My personal opinion of G.O.A.T. is a PLAYER, since we are judging a single person, who was/is in a class of their own. My idea of that is a player that could do as they wish and accomplish what they did regardless of the team around them. This completely throws out stat hoarders, titles and accolades including rings. So based on that this is who I consider to be in the conversation.

Please keep in mind this is opinion based and also based on my best knowledge of players throughout nfl history.

Also this list is in no particular order.

Barry Sanders
Randy Moss
Jim Brown
Jerry Rice
Dan Marino
Deacon Jones
Peyton Manning
Earl Campbell
Lawrence Taylor
Walter Payton
Deion Sanders


I'm sure there are some im forgetting at the moment, but these are the ones at the top of my head.

I love the above post (especially the section I bolded) and think you are pretty much on the mark ... the GOAT has to be the "greatest individual player" irrespective of "team success".

[moose84]

Originally Posted by rats60

Brady hasn't done more with less. His career playoff passer rating is 88.0, 15th all time behind Aikman, Flacco, Eli, Romo, Mark Sanchez, etc..

To be fair those numbers are kinda skewed.

Brady has played in 31, yes, 31 playoff games. The MOST by ANY player in the NFL. plus he could have played more but his teams are usually that good that they barely ever play in the wild card game.

(If anyone's mind is slipping, The NFL passer rating formula includes four variables: completion percentage, yards per attempt, touchdowns per attempt, and interceptions per attempt)

So,

Brady has 31 playoff games with a Passer Rating of 88.0
Aikman has 16. Passer Rating = 88.3
Flacco, 15. Passer Rating = 88.6
Eli, 11. Passer Rating = 89.3
Romo, 6. Passer Rating = 93.0
Sanchez has 6 as well. Passer Rating = 94.3

Even Alex Smith has a better passing rating then TB. 99.1 rating for Alex in 5 games.

Now Brady doubles or more then what those guys have played and his passer rating isnt that far off from some of them.

Im pretty sure if some of those QBs played anywhere near the amount of playoff games Brady has played, that they wouldnt be able to keep those numbers up. Which in turn would bump Brady up a few notches. Plus some of these guys including TB are still playing so lets see what happens in the future.

Just my 2 cents.

[blackbears86]

so I think the folks on blowout have spoken----Brady is the clear leader in the GOAT conversation.

Great post OP!!!!!!!!!!

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

so I think the folks on blowout have spoken----Brady is the clear leader in the GOAT conversation.

Great post OP!!!!!!!!!!

Since when are 40 votes more than 58? Common core math?

[twisty571]

Why does the poll have 2 different and condescending option for Brady? If your going to do that for him you must for others. Manning played for 2 teams and I don't think he really helped them get to the SB last year. That was straight team success with or without Manning, they were on track with Oz at QB.

[moose84]

Originally Posted by twisty571

Why does the poll have 2 different and condescending option for Brady? If your going to do that for him you must for others. Manning played for 2 teams and I don't think he really helped them get to the SB last year. That was straight team success with or without Manning, they were on track with Oz at QB.

I do agree with you that it was more on the defense and a team as a whole who helped Manning to win another ring.

But, if Oz was the QB against the Pats in the AFC championship, that game would have def. been more intriguing then it was. First timer on the big stage in the playoffs against a Pats team who has played in 10 AFC championships with Brady, winning 7 of them.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

Since when are 40 votes more than 58? Common core math?

Tom Brady---GOAT for individual greatness 25.51% easily more than any other player listed.

Core math!!!!!!!!!!!

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by twisty571

Why does the poll have 2 different and condescending option for Brady? If your going to do that for him you must for others. Manning played for 2 teams and I don't think he really helped them get to the SB last year. That was straight team success with or without Manning, they were on track with Oz at QB.

because the poll is skewed as the op has a hidden dislike for Brady...hence starting the poll in the first place.

Never have I seen a player dissected like this on the entire boards (except Lebron in the basketball threads)

Can we finally put this to rest???????????????

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

Tom Brady---GOAT for individual greatness 25.51% easily more than any other player listed.

Core math!!!!!!!!!!!

I see how you manipulated the poll to make your own opinioned point like a political poll. Of course it doesn't matter that the other choices are watered down by having 8 people to choose from.

[Jameis1of1]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

so I think the folks on blowout have spoken----Brady is the clear leader in the GOAT conversation.

Great post OP!!!!!!!!!!

I myself believe he MUST be "in the conversation". I don't personally view him as the GOAT but I think he's an amazing player and I would expect him to receive a great deal of votes as he has ... this poll has turned out much like I thought it would, with Brady leading the vote but not getting the "majority" ... much like Trump in the GOP race

Originally Posted by twisty571

Why does the poll have 2 different and condescending option for Brady? If your going to do that for him you must for others. Manning played for 2 teams and I don't think he really helped them get to the SB last year. That was straight team success with or without Manning, they were on track with Oz at QB.

I didn't mean it to be condescending ... I truly wanted to see what Brady fans valued more, the team success or the individual greatness ... either way they would be voting for Brady.

Originally Posted by blackbears86

because the poll is skewed as the op has a hidden dislike for Brady...hence starting the poll in the first place.

That's not true at all. I think Brady is amazing and liken him to Tim Duncan in the NBA. I'm not a Patriots fan, no, but I respect greatness and I absolutely consider Brady one of the greatest to ever play.

Listen, I have no problem being transparent and saying who I think is vastly over-rated (Bill Russell, Emmitt Smith, Derek Jeter, etc) and who I flat out do not like (Ray Allen, Tony Parker, etc) and Tom Brady doesn't make either of those lists for me.

As for the poll being "skewed", if anything I skewed it in favor of Brady as I gave him two of the 10 polling options ... and he is the leading vote getter in this pole, as I figured he would be.

Never have I seen a player dissected like this on the entire boards (except Lebron in the basketball threads)

Can we finally put this to rest???????????????

This happens with Brady and Manning as well as LeBron and Kobe, however, again, I am not bashing Tom Brady at all in this thread and there is not a single statement I have made in this thread that is "anti-Brady".

I truly wanted to know "why" people who feel Brady is the GOAT feel that way when it is a fact that various QB's have more individual accolades while a guy like Otto Graham has both more individual accolades and experienced more team success than Brady, that's all.

[Skootown]

Originally Posted by Jameis1of1

I truly wanted to know "why" people who feel Brady is the GOAT feel that way when it is a fact that various QB's have more individual accolades while a guy like Otto Graham has both more individual accolades and experienced more team success than Brady, that's all.
[/B]

10 AFC Championships
6 Super Bowls
4 Rings

Who has a better record than that? No one. Especially when you consider the parity of the modern-day NFL.

And please, there isn't one person on this board who watched Otto Graham play football. Completely different game now.

Now, I can see how people have arguments for Montana, Unitas, etc. But no one has had more success in the NFL than Tom Brady.

[Jameis1of1]

Originally Posted by Skootown

10 AFC Championships
6 Super Bowls
4 Rings

Who has a better record than that? No one. Especially when you consider the parity of the modern-day NFL.

And please, there isn't one person on this board who watched Otto Graham play football. Completely different game now.

Now, I can see how people have arguments for Montana, Unitas, etc. But no one has had more success in the NFL than Tom Brady.

You can't ask the question, "who has a better record than that?" and then immediately take a shot at the guy who has a much better record than that ... with a whole lot more individual accolades as well, in Otto Graham.