Will Luka finally start taking care of his body and playing defense now?

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

You could make an argument that Luka has had more success in his first 7 seasons compared to LeBron's.
Against far tougher competition.

Bron's only semi decent scalp in his first Cleveland stint was a Pistons team without Ben Wallace.

Luka's team success has been off the charts. Regarding where his teams should have finished. He's constantly overachieved.

You can see it a mile away that the Lakers are gonna stack a squad around him and it's going to get a lot easier for him there.

No. Keeping everything objective: In addition to the 2 MVPs, LeBron's advanced metrics his first run with Cleveland were far and away better than Luka's.

I won't count year 7 because it's still in progress, but LeBron:

Led in Win Shares 84.9 to 51.2
Led in VORP 51.1 to 34.4
Led in BPM 51.6 to 46.1


Talking playoffs, objectively LeBron led his team to more playoff series wins (6 to 5), and subjectively led a worse lineup to the NBA Finals then Luka, although that's a matter of opinion.

You can compare these two, but LeBron just comes out on top and it's clear.

Now once we get to the end of season 7, it'll be more interesting to compare Luka to Jokic and Giannis. What you'll see is a more consistent and longer history of playing at a high level for Luka, and higher peak performances from the other 2. It might even be fun to throw SGA in the mix, depending on how this season turns out. That could be a fun debate.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by tjforce

No. Keeping everything objective: In addition to the 2 MVPs, LeBron's advanced metrics his first run with Cleveland were far and away better than Luka's.

I won't count year 7 because it's still in progress, but LeBron:

Led in Win Shares 84.9 to 51.2
Led in VORP 51.1 to 34.4
Led in BPM 51.6 to 46.1


Talking playoffs, objectively LeBron led his team to more playoff series wins (6 to 5), and subjectively led a worse lineup to the NBA Finals then Luka, although that's a matter of opinion.

You can compare these two, but LeBron just comes out on top and it's clear.

Now once we get to the end of season 7, it'll be more interesting to compare Luka to Jokic and Giannis. What you'll see is a more consistent and longer history of playing at a high level for Luka, and higher peak performances from the other 2. It might even be fun to throw SGA in the mix, depending on how this season turns out. That could be a fun debate.

I disagree.

Bron
2003/04 missed Playoffs
2004/05 missed Playoffs
2005/06 beat Gilbert Arenas. Lost to a quality Pistons squad
06/07 beat 3 junky squads. Gilbert, Kidd and Vince, Billups and Rip. Got swept by a Spurs squad that they would have had to face in the 1st round out West record wise (probably would miss the Playoffs out West)
07/08 beat Gilbert again. Lost to a quality Celtics squad that won the title
08/09 sweeps a junky Pistons and Atlanta squad, loses to Dwight. Ouch
09/10 beats a 21 yo D. Rose. Loses to a quality Cs squad and then quits.

I can't even see a decent scalp he's taken in this bunch?
This is with having a huge advantage playing so many terrible teams out East. Dwight was a huge blemish.

Luka
2019 misses playoffs. 33 wins gets them 14th in the West (compared to Bron getting 36 his first season and they finished 9th out East)
2020 7th place. Loses to a very much prime Kawhi
2021 5th place and loses to Kawhi again
2022 beats a pretty decent Jazz squad, then beats Phoenix which they weren't better than. Just Luka was too good. Loses to GS who win the title
2023 misses Playoffs
2024 beats a junk Clips, beats OKC who they weren't supposed to beat. Beats Minny who were also supposed.to beat them. Loses in the finals

I would say Luka has had far more team success in a tougher conference.

If we swapped these players around. Luka would feast and have done more than Bron vs that garbage East. Of course the Celtics probably still beat him in 08. But Dwight! Hell no.

Would have loved to see Luka play Gilbert 3 times instead of Kawhi/PG.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

I fully agree.

It has to be done after all.

if and buts won't do it, that's for sure.

We'll have to see how it plays out. I like his chances of getting to 3 titles. 3 FMVPs

But who knows, maybe he gets none.

I'm a fully committed degen, but even I wouldn't have the balls to place a wager on who's the next to crack multiple 'ships. It's really anyone's guess, and extremely hard to predict at the moment. I actually think Tatum is in the most primed position to do so, but it appears as if his hobby window has almost all but closed despite him being only 26 and a top 10 player. Omitted from a lot of modern discussions, and nobody seems to care about him much outside of Boston.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

I disagree.

Bron
2003/04 missed Playoffs
2004/05 missed Playoffs
2005/06 beat Gilbert Arenas. Lost to a quality Pistons squad
06/07 beat 3 junky squads. Gilbert, Kidd and Vince, Billups and Rip. Got swept by a Spurs squad that they would have had to face in the 1st round out West record wise (probably would miss the Playoffs out West)
07/08 beat Gilbert again. Lost to a quality Celtics squad that won the title
08/09 sweeps a junky Pistons and Atlanta squad, loses to Dwight. Ouch
09/10 beats a 21 yo D. Rose. Loses to a quality Cs squad and then quits.

I can't even see a decent scalp he's taken in this bunch?
This is with having a huge advantage playing so many terrible teams out East. Dwight was a huge blemish.

Luka
2019 misses playoffs. 33 wins gets them 14th in the West (compared to Bron getting 36 his first season and they finished 9th out East)
2020 7th place. Loses to a very much prime Kawhi
2021 5th place and loses to Kawhi again
2022 beats a pretty decent Jazz squad, then beats Phoenix which they weren't better than. Just Luka was too good. Loses to GS who win the title
2023 misses Playoffs
2024 beats a junk Clips, beats OKC who they weren't supposed to beat. Beats Minny who were also supposed.to beat them. Loses in the finals

I would say Luka has had far more team success in a tougher conference.

If we swapped these players around. Luka would feast and have done more than Bron vs that garbage East. Of course the Celtics probably still beat him in 08. But Dwight! Hell no.

Would have loved to see Luka play Gilbert 3 times instead of Kawhi/PG.

A closer argument might be between whose better:

Year 7 Luka or Year 22 LeBron.

Bron probably wins that one too.


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[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by tjforce

A closer argument might be between whose better:

Year 7 Luka or Year 22 LeBron.

Bron probably wins that one too.


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You've always had Bron's balls in your mouth. But you're taking it all on this take.

Gross.

[2010GBPackers]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

I disagree.

Bron
2003/04 missed Playoffs
2004/05 missed Playoffs
2005/06 beat Gilbert Arenas. Lost to a quality Pistons squad
06/07 beat 3 junky squads. Gilbert, Kidd and Vince, Billups and Rip. Got swept by a Spurs squad that they would have had to face in the 1st round out West record wise (probably would miss the Playoffs out West)
07/08 beat Gilbert again. Lost to a quality Celtics squad that won the title
08/09 sweeps a junky Pistons and Atlanta squad, loses to Dwight. Ouch
09/10 beats a 21 yo D. Rose. Loses to a quality Cs squad and then quits.

I can't even see a decent scalp he's taken in this bunch?
This is with having a huge advantage playing so many terrible teams out East. Dwight was a huge blemish.

Luka
2019 misses playoffs. 33 wins gets them 14th in the West (compared to Bron getting 36 his first season and they finished 9th out East)
2020 7th place. Loses to a very much prime Kawhi
2021 5th place and loses to Kawhi again
2022 beats a pretty decent Jazz squad, then beats Phoenix which they weren't better than. Just Luka was too good. Loses to GS who win the title
2023 misses Playoffs
2024 beats a junk Clips, beats OKC who they weren't supposed to beat. Beats Minny who were also supposed.to beat them. Loses in the finals

I would say Luka has had far more team success in a tougher conference.

If we swapped these players around. Luka would feast and have done more than Bron vs that garbage East. Of course the Celtics probably still beat him in 08. But Dwight! Hell no.

Would have loved to see Luka play Gilbert 3 times instead of Kawhi/PG.

I can't even believe what I'm reading here. There's really nothing to say. We're clearly living in two different realities.

[Gem10collection]

Luka not looking good since he came back.

If he finishes the season on mostly a low note, will there be any excitement for Luka cards going into next year with LBJ on his last leg?

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Gem10collection

Luka not looking good since he came back.

If he finishes the season on mostly a low note, will there be any excitement for Luka cards going into next year with LBJ on his last leg?

Bron sucks the life force out of everyone he plays with - it’s been a Luka hobby death sentence since joining him.

Luka will be revived after Lequeen is ousted.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

I can't even believe what I'm reading here. There's really nothing to say. We're clearly living in two different realities.

It's maddening. 100% subjective. Ignoring every objective measure.



But just for S+G, walk with me as we compare these two this season. I really haven't examined this yet so this will be a first time going through it and I really don't know the results. But just so I have another pair of eyes looking at it, let's compare and tell me your opinion. As a GM, who's been a better player to have on your roster this year:

[cms11]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Bron sucks the life force out of everyone he plays with - it’s been a Luka hobby death sentence since joining him.

Luka will be revived after Lequeen is ousted.

AD averaged 25/11 with the Lakers. LOL

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by cms11

AD averaged 25/11 with the Lakers. LOL

Yeah but he won all those championships with the Pels and had no success in LA.

Same with Kyrie.... nothing but Finals MVPs since he left Cleveland!

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Bron sucks the life force out of everyone he plays with - it’s been a Luka hobby death sentence since joining him.

Luka will be revived after Lequeen is ousted.

Yep. I'm still waiting to see this "LeBron makes other guys better narrative"

Originally Posted by tjforce

It's maddening. 100% subjective. Ignoring every objective measure.



But just for S+G, walk with me as we compare these two this season. I really haven't examined this yet so this will be a first time going through it and I really don't know the results. But just so I have another pair of eyes looking at it, let's compare and tell me your opinion. As a GM, who's been a better player to have on your roster this year:

Because you're lost here

I was talking about his team success. You go back to stats.

And I even explained how Bron played such weak competition.

Do you even realise that Luka has faced more All NBA players in his Playoff runs so far in his career (even before last years Finals run) than LeBron did in his 8 Finals in a row run.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by cms11

AD averaged 25/11 with the Lakers. LOL

Yeah and he was still cucked by LeBron.

AD was actually the Finals MVP but Bron padded his stats late in games to get his numbers. Particularly game 1.

Go back and watch and take note of the numbers after 3 quarters and the game score.

Lucky LeBron just got a recent top up.of juice so he's back to outrunning the fastest guys in the league.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

Yep. I'm still waiting to see this "LeBron makes other guys better narrative"





Because you're lost here

I was talking about his team success. You go back to stats.

And I even explained how Bron played such weak competition.

Do you even realise that Luka has faced more All NBA players in his Playoff runs so far in his career (even before last years Finals run) than LeBron did in his 8 Finals in a row run.

I'm making 2 points here that are pretty well backed up by facts:

LeBron was a better player his first 6-7 years.

LeBron teams had more success through his first 6 years. Now if the Lakers go on a run and make the Finals this year, that'll change as it flips to year 7.

You seem confused that I'm talking facts and you want to go on conjecture. Until there's a tournament between the teams Luka beat in 2023-24 and the teams LeBron beat in 2006-07, all we'll have there is conjecture and your lonely opinion.

But I'm not that interested in that comparison that started as a measurement toward Luka trending to the top 5 in the first place. I'm more interested in this comparison between Year 7 Luka and Year 22 LeBron.... because that one seems to be a lot closer. If you want to throw in team success as well (pre trade would probably be more relevant), go ahead, I'm not sure it changes much.

[Romocide]

Originally Posted by NBAicons

Yeah Luka really got exposed in the finals.

Luka played the entire playoffs with a knee injury. And still carried the Mavs to the Finals.

[Delta5]

Fat mamba

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by Romocide

Luka played the entire playoffs with a knee injury. And still carried the Mavs to the Finals.

This.

Luka didn't get "exposed". What a moronic take.

The fact of the matter is, Dallas was totally outmatched at every position bar one.

Boston has an elite defense to go along with a pretty decent offense. Perfect combination for success. They'll repeat I'd say.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by tjforce

I'm making 2 points here that are pretty well backed up by facts:

LeBron was a better player his first 6-7 years.

LeBron teams had more success through his first 6 years. Now if the Lakers go on a run and make the Finals this year, that'll change as it flips to year 7.

You seem confused that I'm talking facts and you want to go on conjecture. Until there's a tournament between the teams Luka beat in 2023-24 and the teams LeBron beat in 2006-07, all we'll have there is conjecture and your lonely opinion.

But I'm not that interested in that comparison that started as a measurement toward Luka trending to the top 5 in the first place. I'm more interested in this comparison between Year 7 Luka and Year 22 LeBron.... because that one seems to be a lot closer. If you want to throw in team success as well (pre trade would probably be more relevant), go ahead, I'm not sure it changes much.

Oh yeah because context doesn't matter at all right?

The East in the 00s was atrocious. I'm not sure why you're choosing to ignore that just to try and be "right".

Anyone with half a brain would understand that feasting on the East during that time was a massive advantage.

Luka has played for tougher competition and overachieved all the way through.

Has Luka lost a series to a worse team than the Magic?

Man I wish the Spurs played in the East in the 00s. They would have been in the Finals every year.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

Oh yeah because context doesn't matter at all right?

The East in the 00s was atrocious. I'm not sure why you're choosing to ignore that just to try and be "right".

Anyone with half a brain would understand that feasting on the East during that time was a massive advantage.

Luka has played for tougher competition and overachieved all the way through.

Has Luka lost a series to a worse team than the Magic?

Man I wish the Spurs played in the East in the 00s. They would have been in the Finals every year.

I'm saying your arguement is based on 'what if's'. I'm not going to play that game, but if I wanted to I could look at that run of teams that have never won a thing that Dallas ran through last year and play the same game... but it's just conjecture so it's pointless.

So I digress to tonight, where 25 year old Luka is taking a maintenance day so the 40 year old team captain can play on the second night of a back to back.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by tjforce

I'm saying your arguement is based on 'what if's'. I'm not going to play that game, but if I wanted to I could look at that run of teams that have never won a thing that Dallas ran through last year and play the same game... but it's just conjecture so it's pointless.

So I digress to tonight, where 25 year old Luka is taking a maintenance day so the 40 year old team captain can play on the second night of a back to back.

Edit. Facts are that Luka has already faced far tougher competition than Bron did in his championship runs (I use that term loosely because he ran through the East and got stomped by anyone decent out West).

Let alone Bron's first stint in Cleveland where the best team he beat was Billups and Rip or Vince and J. Kidd. Doesn't sound that special now does it? In 7 years these are the best 2 scalps Bron took. Yikes.

Isn't Luka coming back from injury?

It's pretty clear he's on a minutes restriction and obviously being rested on a b2b.

Pretty common these days.

40 year old Bron has the juice of a 23 yo. Pun intended.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

Edit. Facts are that Luka has already faced far tougher competition than Bron did in his championship runs (I use that term loosely because he ran through the East and got stomped by anyone decent out West).

Let alone Bron's first stint in Cleveland where the best team he beat was Billups and Rip or Vince and J. Kidd. Doesn't sound that special now does it? In 7 years these are the best 2 scalps Bron took. Yikes.

Isn't Luka coming back from injury?

It's pretty clear he's on a minutes restriction and obviously being rested on a b2b.

Pretty common these days.

40 year old Bron has the juice of a 23 yo. Pun intended.

I guess I'll have to update this graphic now that Bron dropped a 40 spot tonight.

But there could be some context I'm missing that Luka downed a sixer of Steele Reserve in the locker room that's way tougher to take down than any wine LeBron drank after the game, so it might favor Luka when you take that into consideration.


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[robert0629]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP3zC5P6ka4

This YouTuber has an interesting take on LeBron's first few years in the league versus Luka's. He has Luka coming out on top. The video's about six minutes long.

[cardozo]

Originally Posted by robert0629

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP3zC5P6ka4

This YouTuber has an interesting take on LeBron's first few years in the league versus Luka's. He has Luka coming out on top. The video's about six minutes long.

You will always find arguments for both sides but imo Dallas came out on top and it’s a shame The Brow got injured that soon.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by robert0629

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP3zC5P6ka4

This YouTuber has an interesting take on LeBron's first few years in the league versus Luka's. He has Luka coming out on top. The video's about six minutes long.

I'll have to watch later.

But I am totally shocked by this take.....

It's almost believable.

[2010GBPackers]

Originally Posted by tjforce

I'm saying your arguement is based on 'what if's'. I'm not going to play that game, but if I wanted to I could look at that run of teams that have never won a thing that Dallas ran through last year and play the same game... but it's just conjecture so it's pointless.

So I digress to tonight, where 25 year old Luka is taking a maintenance day so the 40 year old team captain can play on the second night of a back to back.

Luka at 25 (peak, athletic prime) needs rest on a back-to-back and LeBron (40-freaking years old) drops 40 in a win on the road.

"Luka Magic" must reference the pixie dust spell he has on his fans.

Could you imagine where LeBron and Jordan were on a team together at the end of MJ's run and a 25-year-old LeBron needed to *rest* on a back-to-back, while Jordan goes out there and drops 40? Who would be defending LeBron in that scenario, because that's where we're at here.

Wasn't a few pages ago where people were suggesting that LeBron now needs to defer to Luka.