Are group breaks of repack products illegal gambling?

[TBTC Baseball]

Good grief, that is 12 transactions a day for full calendar years 2022-2025!!! So in reality probably pushing closer to 15-20.

[ATLSevarb]

I offered wondered if breaks constitute “games of chance” in states where prohibited by law (unless states have “raffle” clauses). Utah has some of the strictest gambling laws in the country, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Also, $10MM dollars??!!

[majestik101]

I briefly tried WhatNot and even TikTok breaks for about an hour over a year ago just to see what all the fuss was about.

Both of those places are swarming with shady characters. Mystery Spins, Mystery Packs, 99-cent Chase Breaks, Grab Bags—everywhere you look, it’s a sensory overload of flashing lights, blaring music, and nonstop hype. It’s easy to see how some people could get hooked.

It is absolutely 100% gambling and the characters "hosting" these rooms, or shall I say, yelling and screaming like imbeciles like they just pulled a '52 Mantle, I wouldn't want near me in real life.

Good for this guy, and I hope he wins.

Also, $10,000,000+? good gravy, that's a lot of moola

[NYRE2PECT]

Rooting for the addict on this one!

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by ATLSevarb

I offered wondered if breaks constitute “games of chance” in states where prohibited by law (unless states have “raffle” clauses). Utah has some of the strictest gambling laws in the country, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Also, $10MM dollars??!!

Originally Posted by majestik101

I briefly tried WhatNot and even TikTok breaks for about an hour over a year ago just to see what all the fuss was about.

Both of those places are swarming with shady characters. Mystery Spins, Mystery Packs, 99-cent Chase Breaks, Grab Bags—everywhere you look, it’s a sensory overload of flashing lights, blaring music, and nonstop hype. It’s easy to see how some people could get hooked.

It is absolutely 100% gambling and the characters "hosting" these rooms, or shall I say, yelling and screaming like imbeciles like they just pulled a '52 Mantle, I wouldn't want near me in real life.

Good for this guy, and I hope he wins.

Also, $10,000,000+? good gravy, that's a lot of moola

The $10,000,000 likely involves lots of regambling, ie, he sells back what he wins and uses it for the next gamble. So he may have actually spent only $1,000,000, and with an average of 90-95% return, it added up to $10,000,000 in replays.

Still a lot of moolah, though.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by majestik101

everywhere you look, it’s a sensory overload of flashing lights, blaring music, and nonstop hype. It’s easy to see how some people could get hooked.

Sounds a lot like the 2024 Topps design.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by NYRE2PECT

Rooting for the addict on this one!

Ditto.

If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck. That is, it's illegal gambling.

Whatnot is exploiting gambling addicts -- something needs to be done about it. They also have a lot of shady sellers, and don't seem to care about scams being perpetuated on their platform.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Ditto.

If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck. That is, it's illegal gambling.

Whatnot is exploiting gambling addicts -- something needs to be done about it. They also have a lot of shady sellers, and don't seem to care about scams being perpetuated on their platform.

Sorry, but people have been gambling since the dawn of time.....the idea that gambling should be illegal is quaint and outdated.

Just about every state in the country runs an official lottery, and the Supreme Court ruled a couple of years ago that laws prohibiting gambling are a violation of free speech (i.e. the right to spend your money any way you want).

[base set]

Have been wondering about that. Let’s agree it’s gambling. Where would this be illegal?

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Sorry, but people have been gambling since the dawn of time.....the idea that gambling should be illegal is quaint and outdated.

Just about every state in the country runs an official lottery, and the Supreme Court ruled a couple of years ago that laws prohibiting gambling are a violation of free speech (i.e. the right to spend your money any way you want).

You don't think there should at least be safeguards put in place to prevent kids or gambling addicts from freely participating in online gambling? Just have it like the wild west -- anything goes?

Gambling is becoming pervasive throughout society, with the rise of online sports betting and prediction markets. It's going to have major ramifications for society going forward. But at least we have our freedoms. Or at least, freedom to waste money on a myriad of gambling products.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by base set

Have been wondering about that. Let’s agree it’s gambling. Where would this be illegal?

Utah, according to the plaintiff.

[imbluestreak23]

Sounds like a trust fund baby who lost $10M because he's stupid.

I hope he gets nothing. Zero self control which probably means he's fat. Clearly big boy lives on the internet with Daddy checks coming monthly

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

You don't think there should at least be safeguards put in place to prevent kids or gambling addicts from freely participating in online gambling? Just have it like the wild west -- anything goes?

Gambling is becoming pervasive throughout society, with the rise of online sports betting and prediction markets. It's going to have major ramifications for society going forward. But at least we have our freedoms. Or at least, freedom to waste money on a myriad of gambling products.

Ideally, there would be.

Realistically, any efforts to actually restrict gambling are going to be futile and virtually impossible to enforce.

People forget that passing a law against something is only a small part of the equation.....you also have to be willing to spend the tax dollars to arrest people, try them in a court of law, and imprison them if found guilty.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Ideally, there would be.

Realistically, any efforts to actually restrict gambling are going to be futile and virtually impossible to enforce.

People forget that passing a law against something is only a small part of the equation.....you also have to be willing to spend the tax dollars to arrest people, try them in a court of law, and imprison them if found guilty.

But making it commonplace and freely accessible to anyone would surely be more impactful on society than restricting it and making it less accessible.

It seems like everyone just assumes people will adjust to its pervasiveness. But it's probably going create a lot of problems in society down the line that will have to be reckoned with.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

But making it commonplace and freely accessible to anyone would surely be more impactful on society than restricting it and making it less accessible.

It seems like everyone just assumes people will adjust to its pervasiveness. But it's probably going create a lot of problems in society down the line that will have to be reckoned with.

It's already creating a lot of problems, and it's only going to get worse. We agree on that.

But it takes time, effort, and money to stop any undesirable behavior, and when it comes to taxpayers and the government, all of those are in short supply.

As a society, we've got a LOT more important issues to try and solve....and that's where time/effort/money is going to be directed.

It's all a matter of priorities, and unfortunately, reducing gambling is always going to be comparatively low on the list.

[NYRE2PECT]

At one point in our history we didn't think smoking, let alone smoking indoors and even on an airplane, was a bad idea.

We aren't always the brightest group.

It'll come back around.

[johnlocke36]

I've said it before but they should really be going after them for violating state lottery laws. Utah has some of the harshest and is only one of 5 states that don't have a lottery.

Pretty sure there law is fairly cut and dry: "it is illegal to operate a scheme under which a person gives something of value in order to obtain a chance to get something of value."

[imbluestreak23]

If that is the case, and I were to take that at face value, no way shape or form should packs of cards be sold in Utah

I have to assume because packs of cards are being sold in Utah that this is an incorrect interpretation

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

If that is the case, and I were to take that at face value, no way shape or form should packs of cards be sold in Utah

I have to assume because packs of cards are being sold in Utah that this is an incorrect interpretation

If you buy a pack of card you are getting something of value (the pack of cards). If the retail store said this $100 Box of cards now costs $210 but you can flip a coin and if it’s heads you get it for free, that would be illegal.

Lots of breaking formats are much closer to the latter scenario. I’d imagine breaks where you buy and rip personal boxes would be fine but those where you spin wheels or some other stupid gimmick would be illegal

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

If you buy a pack of card you are getting something of value (the pack of cards). If the retail store said this $100 Box of cards now costs $210 but you can flip a coin and if it’s heads you get it for free, that would be illegal.

Lots of breaking formats are much closer to the latter scenario. I’d imagine breaks where you buy and rip personal boxes would be fine but those where you spin wheels or some other stupid gimmick would be illegal

Right -- re-packer breaks also state the values of the cards they sell. Maybe not specific values, but a value range -- a floor and a ceiling. They also highlight the monetary value of the biggest chase card in the break.

The emphasis on monetary value is what makes re-pack breaks more like gambling than factory-sealed trading card breaks. The cards in re-packs act as a medium for monetary value in a raffle.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

If you buy a pack of card you are getting something of value (the pack of cards). If the retail store said this $100 Box of cards now costs $210 but you can flip a coin and if it’s heads you get it for free, that would be illegal.

Lots of breaking formats are much closer to the latter scenario. I’d imagine breaks where you buy and rip personal boxes would be fine but those where you spin wheels or some other stupid gimmick would be illegal

I'm assuming that's why they highlighted that 98% of the transactions were gambling-style.

Interestingly, I'm pretty sure this person (supposedly not a fan of gambling), was one of the three people that ended up splitting the Lebron Triple Logoman.

That media tour, pumping up the card, whatnot, backyard breaks,...is going to be a fun addition to this case, if it reaches discovery.

A much lower value complaint, but about a year ago, Whatnot settled (undisclosed $) a case regarding a kid that racked up 70k on the parents CC within a couple hours on whatnot.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by auburn35

I'm assuming that's why they highlighted that 98% of the transactions were gambling-style.

Interestingly, I'm pretty sure this person (supposedly not a fan of gambling), was one of the three people that ended up splitting the Lebron Triple Logoman.

That media tour, pumping up the card, whatnot, backyard breaks,...is going to be a fun addition to this case, if it reaches discovery.

A much lower value complaint, but about a year ago, Whatnot settled (undisclosed $) a case regarding a kid that racked up 70k on the parents CC within a couple hours on whatnot.

This will be interesting -- the plaintiff is asking for 20 million. A settlement will surely involve at least seven figures -- probably several million. Would Whatnot give that type of settlement? Would they want to risk inviting other users to sue them for millions?

Your move, Whatnot.

[SaveMeTheGum]

Illegal gambling? Probably not.

But when one man pays another man to handle his goods while he sits and watches is technically cuckhold...

[tyrith]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Ideally, there would be.

Realistically, any efforts to actually restrict gambling are going to be futile and virtually impossible to enforce.

People forget that passing a law against something is only a small part of the equation.....you also have to be willing to spend the tax dollars to arrest people, try them in a court of law, and imprison them if found guilty.

Criminal action isn't going to be what kills it. It's going to be civil lawsuits like the one happening here. Criminal actions are up to prosecutorial discretion; they can skip over things they don't want. The court system HAS to deal with civil suits.

As soon as something like the suit in question sticks, the game is over in that state. They'll have to pull out or every person who loses is going to be filing litigation. And there's are zero states where something like this is going to be technically legal. Even the most pro gambling states have strict requirements for things like raffles. Pay to play is regulated gambling pretty much everywhere AFAIK (IANAL.)

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by tyrith

Criminal action isn't going to be what kills it. It's going to be civil lawsuits like the one happening here. Criminal actions are up to prosecutorial discretion; they can skip over things they don't want. The court system HAS to deal with civil suits.

As soon as something like the suit in question sticks, the game is over in that state. They'll have to pull out or every person who loses is going to be filing litigation. And there's are zero states where something like this is going to be technically legal. Even the most pro gambling states have strict requirements for things like raffles. Pay to play is regulated gambling pretty much everywhere AFAIK (IANAL.)

I hope you're right.

But I fear that the only thing that might move the needle would be if someone organized (and won) a class-action suit.

Juries are too unpredictable, lawyers too expensive, and the court system too slow for single-plaintiff suits to make much of a difference.