Who's the Greatest NBA player of all time? Michael Jordan Or Lebron

[sebreg]

Love Lebron, he's my favorite player. But I still have MJ #1. To me it doesn't diminish Bron's greatness either way (plus this stuff is all subjective anyways), pretty awesome that the sport of basketball has given us some titanic greats in the last few generations.

[wigglestrue]

Originally Posted by drakehendrix34

Post career absolutely isn't the same lol. Does anyone care what Bonds or Joe Montana say on social media? His shoes will and brand will outlive LeBron's forever, but don't act like MJ is in the limelight anywhere near LeBron. LeBron is on every news channel every hour. And MJ doesn't need to defend his money any more. He went against the black community with his "republicans buy sneakers too" comment, so can't guarantee he wouldn't have said anything equally foolish.

You're underestimating the limelight from 30 years ago. There may not have been the internet, but Jordan's every word was inspected and dissected by television channels, daily newspapers, book authors, swarms of random fans, all over the world, constantly. The likelihood of something controversial he said being blasted in public might have been even greater, because he wasn't guarding himself from a casual joke like Republicans Buy Shoes Too being overheard on the bus. Meanwhile, every word Lebron speaks and types is vetted for branding consequences. Which actually makes it worse when he does stuff like take a stand against free speech, because it's something that was painstakingly considered and approved by his PR team, not a spontaneous mistake. Lebron's activist persona is utterly phony. Would rather have a player who abstains from politics than a hollow, treacherous fraud. He has it way easier than he should, since the majority of the media give him not just a pass now but glowing respect because of his fake activism. 30 years ago, if he were pictured over and over and over looking at just the first page of every book he's supposedly reading, it would've been a major media story he'd never live down, not merely a tweet that got a little attention for a week. He would've been ridiculed as an archetypal Dumb Athlete by major journalists, for life, not just some randos on Twitter. He's actually protected by today's media.

[drakehendrix34]

Originally Posted by wigglestrue

You're underestimating the limelight from 30 years ago. There may not have been the internet, but Jordan's every word was inspected and dissected by television channels, daily newspapers, book authors, swarms of random fans, all over the world, constantly. The likelihood of something controversial he said being blasted in public might have been even greater, because he wasn't guarding himself from a casual joke like Republicans Buy Shoes Too being overheard on the bus. Meanwhile, every word Lebron speaks and types is vetted for branding consequences. Which actually makes it worse when he does stuff like take a stand against free speech, because it's something that was painstakingly considered and approved by his PR team, not a spontaneous mistake. Lebron's activist persona is utterly phony. Would rather have a player who abstains from politics than a hollow, treacherous fraud. He has it way easier than he should, since the majority of the media give him not just a pass now but glowing respect because of his fake activism. 30 years ago, if he were pictured over and over and over looking at just the first page of every book he's supposedly reading, it would've been a major media story he'd never live down, not merely a tweet that got a little attention for a week. He would've been ridiculed as an archetypal Dumb Athlete by major journalists, for life, not just some randos on Twitter. He's actually protected by today's media.

You think the I Promise School or the other charitable acts he does are phony? I will also give MJ credit that he has become much more charitable over the years. Again, MJ himself said he couldn't have handled the social media era. He quit basketball twice for mental breaks, so I think that speaks to the difference in the times.

BTW I'm in no way defending LeBron's China comments as that was a bad decision

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by drakehendrix34

You think the I Promise School or the other charitable acts he does are phony? I will also give MJ credit that he has become much more charitable over the years. Again, MJ himself said he couldn't have handled the social media era. He quit basketball twice for mental breaks, so I think that speaks to the difference in the times.

BTW I'm in no way defending LeBron's China comments as that was a bad decision

You can do good acts for a pure reason and still be a complete phony. Mike was a real one and still is. LeCCP is an ignorant fake.

[drakehendrix34]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

You can do good acts for a pure reason and still be a complete phony. Mike was a real one and still is. LeCCP is an ignorant fake.

The Le-nicknames from grown men is so weird, but a good sign to just let it be

[ninjacookies]

Even Wiggins' #BTSArmy recognize the 염소 when they see it.

[thecardscout]

lebron isnt top 3 lol

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by wigglestrue

You are doing the paper matchup thing.

I am prescribing you 2.5 hours of watching Jordan footage.

"A timeline adjustment favors Bron, and it also favors Bron (all else being equal) when it comes to difficulty in winning championships as the league develops over time. Just getting to 10 NBA Finals in this day and age is pretty impressive."

The word "develops" is neutral. But some things develop in a worse, not better, direction. You are assuming the sport has improved. You are assuming the game is harder to dominate now. You would be wrong. The three point shooting percentages have improved. Dribbling has advanced...to laughable new forms of legal travelling. Everything else about the sport is weaker than it was in Jordan's era.

Maybe I gave the impression that I hadn't watched Jordan play. I said that I didn't watch him play in '87-88. (That time my time was preoccupied/wasted on WWF "wrestling". ) I did, however, watch many many hours of MJ/Bulls throughout the '90s. As for Bron in '09, I knew that he did some things MJ didn't do, like the chase-down blocks.

As for how much more difficult it is to dominate in today's game, I figured it stands to reason that competition gets tighter as time goes on. Just the influx of international talent alone tells a lot of the story.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

since you dont like the team record being a factor in the mvp race. going by stats, do you think lebron is outside the top 10? team record is killing his mvp rating, thanks injuries. hes a half a point outside of the scoring leader. if he somehow gets the scoring title and has a top 5 per or whatever advanced stat you want to use, i wonder if that would get him in top 5 of voting? i doubt it happens, lakers will have to play their tails off to get into the 7 or 8 seed now ad is done for a while.

Going by the stats he's still a top 5 player, top 7 at the worst (like with that current-best-players poll I recently posted). As for whether he will get much MVP support, we might ask just how well these straw polls predict the real outcomes. I can see non-top-7 players like Ja, DeRozan, CP3, Rudy getting more points than Bron, and if it's those 4 plus the other top-6 (The 3 front runners plus Luka, KD, and Steph), then that's 10 ahead of him.

[wigglestrue]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Maybe I gave the impression that I hadn't watched Jordan play. I said that I didn't watch him play in '87-88. (That time my time was preoccupied/wasted on WWF "wrestling". ) I did, however, watch many many hours of MJ/Bulls throughout the '90s. As for Bron in '09, I knew that he did some things MJ didn't do, like the chase-down blocks.

Lebron may be the best at chasedown blocks, at least the category of chasedown blocks on fast breaks that are slapped against the backboard. But that's also a much closer comparison than most people realize. Jordan definitely also did chasedown blocks. In fact, he did the snatching-it-with-both-hands-instead-of-just-slapping-it category of chasedown block better than Lebron.

https://youtu.be/QV76XhTXIcY

Jordan was an absolute freak.

As for how much more difficult it is to dominate in today's game, I figured it stands to reason that competition gets tighter as time goes on. Just the influx of international talent alone tells a lot of the story.

Competition does not necessarily get tighter with time. The larger pool of available talent would suggest stronger competition, but the style of play that coincided with their influx has weakened the game itself. Or should I say, softened the game. The league has also expanded to accommodate that extra talent. But yeah, imagine the NBA without the internationals, it would be awful. It may be that the influx of internationals has kept the league from regressing even further talent-wise. But no amount of extra talent can make up for the way the game has been mutilated by the nerds' efficiency revolution. It's like half the sport was amputated.



It's almost just a season-long Dunk Contest and Three Point Shootout now. Combine that with the rules that basically prohibit aggressive defense. And combine that with the near-disappearance of dominant centers. And combine that with the near-disappearance of travelling calls. It's not just a different game, it's a worse game, it's an easier game. It's the equivalent of MLB juicing the baseballs and providing hitters an extra strike and shortening the fences and not producing any dominant pitchers anymore: If the batting stats of the best still looked comparable with previous eras, that'd mean the quality of the game had decreased. Not to mention the ridiculous assist inflation, ugh, don't get me started.

[FranchiseKicks]

Jordan is the greatest of all time. LeBron isn't even number 2, he "might" be number 5. Top 5 - Jordan, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, LeBron

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by wigglestrue

Lebron may be the best at chasedown blocks, at least the category of chasedown blocks on fast breaks that are slapped against the backboard. But that's also a much closer comparison than most people realize. Jordan definitely also did chasedown blocks. In fact, he did the snatching-it-with-both-hands-instead-of-just-slapping-it category of chasedown block better than Lebron.

https://youtu.be/QV76XhTXIcY

Jordan was an absolute freak.



Competition does not necessarily get tighter with time. The larger pool of available talent would suggest stronger competition, but the style of play that coincided with their influx has weakened the game itself. Or should I say, softened the game. The league has also expanded to accommodate that extra talent. But yeah, imagine the NBA without the internationals, it would be awful. It may be that the influx of internationals has kept the league from regressing even further talent-wise. But no amount of extra talent can make up for the way the game has been mutilated by the nerds' efficiency revolution. It's like half the sport was amputated.



It's almost just a season-long Dunk Contest and Three Point Shootout now. Combine that with the rules that basically prohibit aggressive defense. And combine that with the near-disappearance of dominant centers. And combine that with the near-disappearance of travelling calls. It's not just a different game, it's a worse game, it's an easier game. It's the equivalent of MLB juicing the baseballs and providing hitters an extra strike and shortening the fences and not producing any dominant pitchers anymore: If the batting stats of the best still looked comparable with previous eras, that'd mean the quality of the game had decreased. Not to mention the ridiculous assist inflation, ugh, don't get me started.

God that chart is depressing to look at

[pingbling23]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Going by the stats he's still a top 5 player, top 7 at the worst (like with that current-best-players poll I recently posted). As for whether he will get much MVP support, we might ask just how well these straw polls predict the real outcomes. I can see non-top-7 players like Ja, DeRozan, CP3, Rudy getting more points than Bron, and if it's those 4 plus the other top-6 (The 3 front runners plus Luka, KD, and Steph), then that's 10 ahead of him.

Curious why kd is so high? Lebron is having a better statistical season and the nets are currently 8th in the east. I misspoke in my original post, I should have said possibly instead of probably. Regardless, statistically lebrons still a top player in the league. Shocking at this stage and mileage.

[wigglestrue]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

God that chart is depressing to look at

It reminded me of a meme.

[theleica]

Liltrapstar throws chum in the water and all the large sharks on BO can't resist.

[sethc1020]

Bill Russell

[threepointplay]

Originally Posted by wigglestrue

It's almost just a season-long Dunk Contest and Three Point Shootout now. Combine that with the rules that basically prohibit aggressive defense. And combine that with the near-disappearance of dominant centers. And combine that with the near-disappearance of travelling calls. It's not just a different game, it's a worse game, it's an easier game. It's the equivalent of MLB juicing the baseballs and providing hitters an extra strike and shortening the fences and not producing any dominant pitchers anymore: If the batting stats of the best still looked comparable with previous eras, that'd mean the quality of the game had decreased. Not to mention the ridiculous assist inflation, ugh, don't get me started.

Well that graphic along has resulted me in ordering his book!

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by wigglestrue

Lebron may be the best at chasedown blocks, at least the category of chasedown blocks on fast breaks that are slapped against the backboard. But that's also a much closer comparison than most people realize. Jordan definitely also did chasedown blocks. In fact, he did the snatching-it-with-both-hands-instead-of-just-slapping-it category of chasedown block better than Lebron.

https://youtu.be/QV76XhTXIcY

Jordan was an absolute freak.

I'm seeing a whole lot of the just-slapping-it rather than snatching-it block here....

Competition does not necessarily get tighter with time. The larger pool of available talent would suggest stronger competition, but the style of play that coincided with their influx has weakened the game itself. Or should I say, softened the game. The league has also expanded to accommodate that extra talent. But yeah, imagine the NBA without the internationals, it would be awful. It may be that the influx of internationals has kept the league from regressing even further talent-wise. But no amount of extra talent can make up for the way the game has been mutilated by the nerds' efficiency revolution. It's like half the sport was amputated.



It's almost just a season-long Dunk Contest and Three Point Shootout now. Combine that with the rules that basically prohibit aggressive defense. And combine that with the near-disappearance of dominant centers. And combine that with the near-disappearance of travelling calls. It's not just a different game, it's a worse game, it's an easier game. It's the equivalent of MLB juicing the baseballs and providing hitters an extra strike and shortening the fences and not producing any dominant pitchers anymore: If the batting stats of the best still looked comparable with previous eras, that'd mean the quality of the game had decreased. Not to mention the ridiculous assist inflation, ugh, don't get me started.

I'm seeing something here in terms of how a different style of play has emerged, but I'm not seeing an argument for how it is not more difficult to dominate relative to the rest of one's peers under the new style of play. The standard in today's game would be just how much better than one's peers a player is at, e.g., shooting threes (and so Steph's dominance as "the GSOAT" is achieved in a different way than Wilt's).

Supposing that you're correct about the near-disappearance of aggressive defense, of traveling calls, and of dominant big men, those are still conditions that all the players are facing, it's just that the skillset required (which still depends on basic factors like eye-hand coordination) for adding win-value would have changed. The measurements of value would still show a tightening up where there was more "spread" before. If the game were easier to dominate in the sense I'm speaking of, you'd see a greater frequency of single-season player VORP in the top 10 or 20 all-time, but I'd say it's just the opposite even with the larger player population (particularly since right around the 2013 season which is nearly 10 seasons ago now).

(I do think it's kinda funny how the chart on the right side almost has the bird being flipped in the key there. )

[i4gotmyid]

Originally Posted by wigglestrue

Lebron may be the best at chasedown blocks, at least the category of chasedown blocks on fast breaks that are slapped against the backboard. But that's also a much closer comparison than most people realize. Jordan definitely also did chasedown blocks. In fact, he did the snatching-it-with-both-hands-instead-of-just-slapping-it category of chasedown block better than Lebron.

https://youtu.be/QV76XhTXIcY

Jordan was an absolute freak.



Competition does not necessarily get tighter with time. The larger pool of available talent would suggest stronger competition, but the style of play that coincided with their influx has weakened the game itself. Or should I say, softened the game. The league has also expanded to accommodate that extra talent. But yeah, imagine the NBA without the internationals, it would be awful. It may be that the influx of internationals has kept the league from regressing even further talent-wise. But no amount of extra talent can make up for the way the game has been mutilated by the nerds' efficiency revolution. It's like half the sport was amputated.


It's almost just a season-long Dunk Contest and Three Point Shootout now. Combine that with the rules that basically prohibit aggressive defense. And combine that with the near-disappearance of dominant centers. And combine that with the near-disappearance of travelling calls. It's not just a different game, it's a worse game, it's an easier game. It's the equivalent of MLB juicing the baseballs and providing hitters an extra strike and shortening the fences and not producing any dominant pitchers anymore: If the batting stats of the best still looked comparable with previous eras, that'd mean the quality of the game had decreased. Not to mention the ridiculous assist inflation, ugh, don't get me started.

Um...did we watch the same game growing up? If you beat your "aggressive defender" you had an open midrange shot, or you just had to run was a pick and roll and someone could score on either matchup. Even the triangle made a mid-range mismatch where someone could score. Now almost everyone can switch pretty evenly and help defense comes from different angles instead of the closest guy, even the spacing between the non-ball defender and the lane presents more obstacles than just a lumbering center.

Speaking of dominant centers, because of the 3 point shot (nerd efficiency?), now centers have to be mobile and switch and cover little guys, could you imagine Mark Eaton or Mutombo on the perimeter? They would get eaten up, hence the quick demise of Roy Hibbert.

Traveling/offensive fouls are my pet peeve, but that was a result of smarter players exploiting the poorly written definition of the rules (and ignoring the spirit of the rule), hence the rule changes in 2019 on traveling and last year on the offensive foul so I hope that does clean it up (it seems like it has a bit).

As far as an "easier" game...I'll use my sonics as an example, a team that went to the finals in 1996 (and had a nice mix of modern offense), you had a bench rotation of Askew, Nate, the other Ervin Johnson, Brickowski (brick house) and filler. When those guys came into the game, it was like playing 4 V 5 on offense, so it looked like great D on the part of the other team, but I'm pretty sure it was more a result of putting a 0 on the floor that made it a "tougher" game

[GOATMJ]

MJ by a mile and a half. The guy won a 3-peat, went to an entirely different sport, came back and won ANOTHER 3-peat, all 6 Finals MVP's, 10 Scorings Titles, 9x All Defensives, has the highest scoring avg Career, Playoffs AND Finals, made Basketball GLOBAL, is the biggest brand in ALL Sports, and about a hundred more accolades on his resume.

MJ is the absolute GOAT and we all saw it during the All-Star game, ESPN Polls, NBA Polls, Athletics Poll and so much more. The majority of the World agrees.

[RogerGodahell]

I'd like to see what that chart looked like 15-20 years before that. You'd see a couple dots outside the 3pt line lol.

[duron]

Originally Posted by drakehendrix34

The Le-nicknames from grown men is so weird, but a good sign to just let it be

What’s weirder is any time someone attaches “grown men” to an action as if it’s some point made.

Lebron is incredible and I try to separate the arts from the artists, but it’s very entertaining seeing people still completely duped by his phoniness.

[Beavers98]

These same posts pop up all the time and never end in a page or two. Funny stuff

MJ over Lebron easy and I am in no way a Lebron Hater.

[RogerGodahell]

Closest i could find is a graph from several years ago. I'm sure the 3 pt shot is still trending up.

[/url]Screenshot 2022-02-22 3.33.14 PM by

[wigglestrue]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

I'm seeing a whole lot of the just-slapping-it rather than snatching-it block here....



I'm seeing something here in terms of how a different style of play has emerged, but I'm not seeing an argument for how it is not more difficult to dominate relative to the rest of one's peers under the new style of play. The standard in today's game would be just how much better than one's peers a player is at, e.g., shooting threes (and so Steph's dominance as "the GSOAT" is achieved in a different way than Wilt's).

Supposing that you're correct about the near-disappearance of aggressive defense, of traveling calls, and of dominant big men, those are still conditions that all the players are facing, it's just that the skillset required (which still depends on basic factors like eye-hand coordination) for adding win-value would have changed. The measurements of value would still show a tightening up where there was more "spread" before. If the game were easier to dominate in the sense I'm speaking of, you'd see a greater frequency of single-season player VORP in the top 10 or 20 all-time, but I'd say it's just the opposite even with the larger player population (particularly since right around the 2013 season which is nearly 10 seasons ago now).

(I do think it's kinda funny how the chart on the right side almost has the bird being flipped in the key there. )

I don't mean it's easier to dominate in terms of achieving separation from your peers. I mean the sport is easier, so dominating is easier, because playing the game is easier, period. If next year MLB switched everything to this...



...the separation between the best hitters may remain constant, but dominating at the plate would still also be easier, because literally everything about hitting would be easier. Likewise, if MLB switched to wiffleball, dominating on the mound would be easier. You couldn't compare a wiffleball pitcher's ERA+ to Randy Johnson's, even if they were similar numbers.