eBay Raw Card Purchases - What's reasonable for a return?

[The Finest]

Odds OP asks for a partial refund??

[BRob1]

Originally Posted by hypostatic

I purchased a $500+ raw rookie card recently and just received the package. I don't want to get into the details of the player or card in case the seller is a member here.

The seller had listed two photos of the front of the card in a sleeve and another two of the back of the card in a sleeve. There were no apparent surface issues on the card and I assumed any visible dots and lines were lint and smudges. Fortunately, after gently wiping the card down, all of the dots and lines disappeared and the card looks pristine other than a single "pit" near the center front of the card that wasn't in the pictures and wasn't disclosed.

Based on my inspection, but for that pit, this card might have graded a PSA 9 or 10, but now I'm not sure if it would even get an 8.

Is this something the seller should have disclosed? If so, is this a legitimate reason to return the card? I don't have buyer's remorse. I love the card and I'm happy to keep it for my PC, but I can't help but feel that the issue should have been identified in the description given how prominent it is.

I may or may not be annoying to sellers, but I buy $200-$500 raw cards regularly, but I will ask for multiple pics, then ask questions on any potential surface conditions I see/think I see. Most of the time sellers are willing to accommodate. Occasionally I will get a seller who says something like I don’t answer questions or send pics because you guys are all looking for cards to grade. I just move on at that point.

If the card is in a sleeve but the centering looks good and I think I might want to proceed, I ALWAYS ask for pics out of the sleeve. I would never purchase anything above like $20 without it.

In this case, if you aren’t happy with what you got, return it. It’s unfortunate when sellers don’t disclose things like that, but it’s your job to ask too. I’d say return it, but use it as a learning lesson and don’t make the same mistake again.

[JP Universe]

If you're buying a card raw you need to take the risk that there is something wrong or ask the seller questions.... That's why you pick them up at a discount.

Buying raw and grading is an art within itself. You need to assume that every raw card you buy has something that is stopping it from grading a 9. It's getting more and more rare that you can buy a raw card then grade as a PSA 10.

[BRob1]

Originally Posted by glen87

to me, there are too many "new people" jumping into the hobby without educating themselves as to what they are buying simply because someone told them buy this card, get it graded, and make money.

too often, these people buy a card that all of us veterans would instantly recognize as an 8 or possibly a 9 at best (but 9 would be on a lucky day) thinking they are buying a gem 10, and when they get it on hand, there is a minor flaw (which was visible had they known what to look for), and then come running for help asking if it is ok to return the card.

not saying this is the case here since we do not have the whole picture, but i have seen it often enough the past 3-4 months that has caused me to become more skeptical.

Originally Posted by JustRachel

It's pretty easy to avoid those gem miner buyers. Just disclose the flaws. Or say, "this card will not gem". Sadly, too many shady sellers want to maximize profits by not avoiding these buyers and then complain when they get returns.

I find that kinda funny.

Originally Posted by JustRachel

I hear you. And I don't disagree, except for the last part. Why do buyers need to gamble? Where else is that the norm? Why can't sellers describe what they're selling?

This concept isn't hard. It's really not. Just be honest. As my husband always says, Don't Be An A$$hole. Be honest. It's not hard.

You don't need to say "this card is a 10" or a 9 or an 8 or whatever. All sellers need to do is point out flaws. Just say "this card has a surface dimple"...or take a pic of the print line....or whatever. Just don't be an a$$hole. Easy peasy, no?

If sellers don't want to do that, or can't be bothered to actually look at their cards, or are too freaking stupid to spot flaws (as if I believe "I am not a pro grader, lol), then they are going to get returns. That is a fact, like it or not. And those returns will not be optional.

Sellers get to decide for themselves, are they going to disclose condition, or are they going to get a lot of returns. That's just the way it is. I don't make the rules. I just dislike when sellers choose not to disclose true condition and then whine about returns. Sellers, you get to choose one, not both.

I say this as a seller. Yes, it's true...I sell probably four times as much as I buy on the Bay. The shady sellers out there are taking food off of the tables of honest sellers. I disclose flaws. For sellers that don't, don't expect sympathy from me.

Just do the right thing. It's not hard. Seriously.


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All valid and well articulated points.

I am primarily a buyer and get so frustrated with sellers who either won’t be honest in their listings/pics, answer the common question of “are there any condition issues” with “no flaws that can’t be seen in the pics” or just generally try to indemnify themselves from a return by giving vague answers. If I’m going to buy a $300 card from you, be honest about the condition! Help me out a little since I can’t turn it in hand.

I hate feeling like I have to interrogate the buyer to get them to disclose info. Just be transparent about what you’re selling. List any obvious flaws. Take a pic of it. Answer a potential buyers questions honestly. I know there are a ton of crappy buyers out there hunting 10’s. Hell, I hunt 10’s. I just try to ask enough questions and see enough pics that I know I’m ending up with something that is 9/10 and no worse.

The more transparent you are in your listing, the better experience you’ll have as a seller. If you ran a shop and somebody wanted to buy a $500 item from you, you’d be happy to spend 15-20 minutes with them answering questions to make the sale. Put the same effort into selling online. Don’t take two crappy pics then throw it online expecting high raw price and then getting mad when you get a return.

[The Finest]

Originally Posted by BRob1

I may or may not be annoying to sellers, but I buy $200-$500 raw cards regularly, but I will ask for multiple pics, then ask questions on any potential surface conditions I see/think I see. Most of the time sellers are willing to accommodate. Occasionally I will get a seller who says something like I don’t answer questions or send pics because you guys are all looking for cards to grade. I just move on at that point.

If the card is in a sleeve but the centering looks good and I think I might want to proceed, I ALWAYS ask for pics out of the sleeve. I would never purchase anything above like $20 without it.

In this case, if you aren’t happy with what you got, return it. It’s unfortunate when sellers don’t disclose things like that, but it’s your job to ask too. I’d say return it, but use it as a learning lesson and don’t make the same mistake again.

DELETE

[BRob1]

Delete

[DajuanWagner]

Originally Posted by The Finest

Odds OP asks for a partial refund??

Odds OP does not provide his ebay user id?????

[nrm1977]

Originally Posted by hypostatic

I purchased a $500+ raw rookie card recently and just received the package. I don't want to get into the details of the player or card in case the seller is a member here.

The seller had listed two photos of the front of the card in a sleeve and another two of the back of the card in a sleeve. There were no apparent surface issues on the card and I assumed any visible dots and lines were lint and smudges. Fortunately, after gently wiping the card down, all of the dots and lines disappeared and the card looks pristine other than a single "pit" near the center front of the card that wasn't in the pictures and wasn't disclosed.

Based on my inspection, but for that pit, this card might have graded a PSA 9 or 10, but now I'm not sure if it would even get an 8.

Is this something the seller should have disclosed? If so, is this a legitimate reason to return the card? I don't have buyer's remorse. I love the card and I'm happy to keep it for my PC, but I can't help but feel that the issue should have been identified in the description given how prominent it is.

Buying a $500 raw card without asking the seller if their are any surface issues etc on a card is simply moronic. Their is usually a reason why a higher dollar amount card is selling raw. Thinking you’re going to find a raw card of a $500 is going to gem is again moronic. If you want a gem mint copy buy a already graded one.

[Boo]

Originally Posted by Absknicks

I would like to block everyone who comes into these threads and says “please provide your eBay ID.”

The worst of the worst in this hobby and the type of people who chase off anyone normal who wants to get into collecting.

I wouldn't mind your ebay ID as well

[OneBuck]

you paid $500 for the raw copy. That $500 price tag just doesn't mean much of anything without knowing anything else about the card. What does a PSA 8, 9 & 10 of this card sell for?


I rarely sell anything from my collection, but recently decided to sell off a few things and pick up some vintage PC cards I've been wanting for a while. I received an offer on one card of one of the hot players at the moment & asking if there were any flaws. I mentioned I don't grade and the card looked good to me. Sent an additional 6 pictures I believe, which is the limit per ebay message and said if they needed more just to let me know. They agreed to purchase the card without any additional pictures & upon receiving sent me a picture of one of the corners under a microscope and stated they needed a partial refund or were going to submit a return for item not as described & stating they know it's a very minor factory defect, they were just looking for a gem. I wasn't giving a partial refund so I just took the card back. Now I had to eat the initial cost of shipping to them as well as the return shipping. After getting the card back I still don't see any flaws. My card sold for $210, which is in line with all the other raw sales of this one & just based off of the pictures my copy appears a lot more centered than the others that have been listed. a PSA 10 recently sold for $2350 & BGS 9 sold for $370. After that I just pulled my few other auctions I put up & decided to keep everything in my collection. It just isn't worth dealing with all these new "investors" trying to get rich quick. Are there shady sellers out there? of course. At the same time you have this huge influx of people thinking they're going instantly turn $500 in to $5000.

[armyml]

Originally Posted by BRob1

I may or may not be annoying to sellers, but I buy $200-$500 raw cards regularly, but I will ask for multiple pics, then ask questions on any potential surface conditions I see/think I see. Most of the time sellers are willing to accommodate. Occasionally I will get a seller who says something like I don’t answer questions or send pics because you guys are all looking for cards to grade. I just move on at that point.

If the card is in a sleeve but the centering looks good and I think I might want to proceed, I ALWAYS ask for pics out of the sleeve. I would never purchase anything above like $20 without it.

In this case, if you aren’t happy with what you got, return it. It’s unfortunate when sellers don’t disclose things like that, but it’s your job to ask too. I’d say return it, but use it as a learning lesson and don’t make the same mistake again.

I don't think this is annoying at all, and a seller is a crappy one if they don't produce more/higher quality pics. I recently sold a 15-16 Steph Curry Prizm Silver raw on Ebay. Typically I only scan front and back in my listings. Buyer wanted more pics. Out of the sleeve, all corners, etc etc. No problem at all good sir. If I want to sell the card I'm going to take the pics. Only reason not to is if they have something to hide with the card condition.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by nrm1977

Buying a $500 raw card without asking the seller if their are any surface issues etc on a card is simply moronic. Their is usually a reason why a higher dollar amount card is selling raw. Thinking you’re going to find a raw card of a $500 is going to gem is again moronic. If you want a gem mint copy buy a already graded one.

Why is it moronic? The buyer is completely protected.

I'd flip it around and say selling a $500 raw card without fully describing the condition is moronic, because the seller is NOT protected. The seller will be the one taking the loss.

Thinking the buyer needs to do anything at all is simply backward. We can debate whether it should be that way, but it is actually that way whether it's right or not.

Blaming picky buyers is one way to handle it. It's not going to stop though. Option #2 is to fully describe the card, which may cut down on shenanigans but not end them completely. Option #3 is to not sell cards like that. I'm not sure which option is best, but I doubt it's #1.

Edit to add: maybe you should try putting that in your listings. "If you buy this card without asking me about surface issues, etc, you're moronic." Give that a try and let me know how it works.



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[TSonn]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Why is it moronic? The buyer is completely protected.

I'd flip it around and say selling a $500 raw card without fully describing the condition is moronic, because the seller is NOT protected. The seller will be the one taking the loss.

Thinking the buyer needs to do anything at all is simply backward. We can debate whether it should be that way, but it is actually that way whether it's right or not.

Blaming picky buyers is one way to handle it. It's not going to stop though. Option #2 is to fully describe the card, which may cut down on shenanigans but not end them completely. Option #3 is to not sell cards like that. I'm not sure which option is best, but I doubt it's #1.

Edit to add: maybe you should try putting that in your listings. "If you buy this card without asking me questions, you're moronic." Give that a try and let me know how it works.



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This is where I was going with the seller listing a clearly damaged card as "Pristine" and "Gem Mint". Maybe I'm a crappy buyer but I would have no issues with returning a card that has flaws when the seller is not being honest in the listing. I shouldn't have to request more photos if the seller is going out of their way to include "Gem Mint" "Pristine" and "10" in their listing. Obviously they are just doing it for more clicks, but it's also claiming the card is perfect.

Listing the card as "great condition" is a different story and doesn't speak directly to grading - "great condition" to me is near mint or better. In this case there's very little reason I'd return if I found issues with the card upon receiving.

[hauntedcomputer]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Why is it moronic? The buyer is completely protected.

I'd flip it around and say selling a $500 raw card without fully describing the condition is moronic, because the seller is NOT protected. The seller will be the one taking the loss.

This. Sure, some sellers are ignorant but most know they're trying to slip a flaw or two by in a fuzzy pic or a card in a sleeve and plastic holder. Not only will you get a return but you may get a neg out of the deal, and you also lose other opportunities to sell the (accurately described) card. I don't understand why more sellers don't want their buyers to be happy. It's just good business.

If anyone asks me condition of a new card, I always say "near mint," so they can expect a PSA 8 at best, as well as describe any flaws up front. Those Gemmer types usually slowly back away. I've gotten lots of positive feedback for appropriately priced lower-grade cards that were accurately described. I accept 30-day returns and I think I've had only one return out of more than 600 sales, and that was for a card where I legitimately did not see the damage--after the refund the buyer gave me a positive feedback and I then sold the damaged card at half price and made someone else happy. Some people out there aren't looking to max every angle and outhustle everyone, they just want a card at a fair price

[hypostatic]

Originally Posted by DajuanWagner

Odds OP does not provide his ebay user id?????

The odds are 100%. If I wanted to disclose the listing or my user ID, I would have. The point wasn't to "out" me, it was to have a discussion on the reasonableness of a return in the scenario I described.

[fdjizm]

hey real quick, what is your eBay user ID?

lol jk

[psd2k10]

Originally Posted by OneBuck

you paid $500 for the raw copy. That $500 price tag just doesn't mean much of anything without knowing anything else about the card. What does a PSA 8, 9 & 10 of this card sell for?


I rarely sell anything from my collection, but recently decided to sell off a few things and pick up some vintage PC cards I've been wanting for a while. I received an offer on one card of one of the hot players at the moment & asking if there were any flaws. I mentioned I don't grade and the card looked good to me. Sent an additional 6 pictures I believe, which is the limit per ebay message and said if they needed more just to let me know. They agreed to purchase the card without any additional pictures & upon receiving sent me a picture of one of the corners under a microscope and stated they needed a partial refund or were going to submit a return for item not as described & stating they know it's a very minor factory defect, they were just looking for a gem. I wasn't giving a partial refund so I just took the card back. Now I had to eat the initial cost of shipping to them as well as the return shipping. After getting the card back I still don't see any flaws. My card sold for $210, which is in line with all the other raw sales of this one & just based off of the pictures my copy appears a lot more centered than the others that have been listed. a PSA 10 recently sold for $2350 & BGS 9 sold for $370. After that I just pulled my few other auctions I put up & decided to keep everything in my collection. It just isn't worth dealing with all these new "investors" trying to get rich quick. Are there shady sellers out there? of course. At the same time you have this huge influx of people thinking they're going instantly turn $500 in to $5000.

Agreed! If i get emails with weird condition related questions i just scare them away because i know its a disaster waiting to happen.

[orion9578]

Originally Posted by psd2k10

Agreed! If i get emails with weird condition related questions i just scare them away because i know its a disaster waiting to happen.

All raw cards sold by me get the NrMT-MT condition note. If I get questions about condition, I just state it is likely an 8(NrMT-MT). I probably have sold 100s of 10s listing stuff this way, but its just not worth the trouble of "self grading".

In my opinion, if a buyer wants a PSA 10, go buy a PSA 10. On the other hand if a seller lists any raw cards they sell as mint or gem, theyre setting themselves up for a nightmare(eventually).

[jgrann13]

I love these posts
I sell alot of raw cards because I dislike the grading philosophy.

That being said If i sell you a raw card and you grade it and it comes back a 10 are you messaging me saying thank you or sending another few hundred my way?

No. so all you buyers who collect to grade and flip can go kick rocks

[KRAVEN4LIFE]

Originally Posted by jgrann13

I love these posts
I sell alot of raw cards because I dislike the grading philosophy.

That being said If i sell you a raw card and you grade it and it comes back a 10 are you messaging me saying thank you or sending another few hundred my way?

No. so all you buyers who collect to grade and flip can go kick rocks

Agreed well said. You want a ten then buy one.

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[hauntedcomputer]

So I asked this guy to show a card described only as "Condition is very good" out of scratched holder and got "I don't like to do that but give me a minute."
Item:

Result:


Needless to say, "Seller does not accept returns." Also did not add these newly revealing photos to the item page or change his description.

[glen87]

Originally Posted by hauntedcomputer

So I asked this guy to show a card described only as "Condition is very good" out of scratched holder and got "I don't like to do that but give me a minute."
Item:

Result:


Needless to say, "Seller does not accept returns." Also did not add these newly revealing photos to the item page or change his description.

that would be returnable regardless of what seller claims

[jamcas997]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

It's pretty easy to avoid those gem miner buyers. Just disclose the flaws. Or say, "this card will not gem". Sadly, too many shady sellers want to maximize profits by not avoiding these buyers and then complain when they get returns.

I find that kinda funny.

You can say that all you want , but I still got a return from a grade chaser on a $15 card and my items all state this:

PLEASE READ ALL BEFORE BUYING INCLUDING THE SHIPPING SPECIFICS BELOW SO THERE ARE NO ISSUES LATER. PLEASE NOTE AND UNDERSTANDTHAT MOST THICK , CHROME , FOIL ,AND NEWER TYPE OF CARDS MAY CONTAIN SOME FORM OF FLAWS SUCH AS EDGE CHIPPING AND OR DINGS , CORNER DINING , BOWING , AND SURFACE SCRATCHING. WHICH IS A FREQUENT OCCURRENCE IN THE PRODUCTION OF CARDS AS THE MANUFACTURERS HAVE NOT PERFECTED A SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM. THIS HAS BEEN AND UNDERSTOOD IN OUR INDUSTRY AND WE CONSIDER THESE CARDS TO BE NRMT .This card is not mint , but may be considered nrmt this is why it is priced low and you the buyer are accepting that , so if you are looking for a gem mint 10 or are a grade chaser this is not the one as I am not a Professional grader and do not profess to be one as EBAY has the approved list of graders .This card was taken from the pack to a soft sleeve for protection .

If there is also a notable flaw it will be listed as well, they don't care because most do not READ THE DESCRIPTION. While I allow free returns the INAD kill me JUST ASK FOR A RETURN and don't be a Richard Cranium.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by jamcas997

You can say that all you want , but I still got a return from a grade chaser on a $15 card and my items all state this:



PLEASE READ ALL BEFORE BUYING INCLUDING THE SHIPPING SPECIFICS BELOW SO THERE ARE NO ISSUES LATER. PLEASE NOTE AND UNDERSTANDTHAT MOST THICK , CHROME , FOIL ,AND NEWER TYPE OF CARDS MAY CONTAIN SOME FORM OF FLAWS SUCH AS EDGE CHIPPING AND OR DINGS , CORNER DINING , BOWING , AND SURFACE SCRATCHING. WHICH IS A FREQUENT OCCURRENCE IN THE PRODUCTION OF CARDS AS THE MANUFACTURERS HAVE NOT PERFECTED A SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM. THIS HAS BEEN AND UNDERSTOOD IN OUR INDUSTRY AND WE CONSIDER THESE CARDS TO BE NRMT .This card is not mint , but may be considered nrmt this is why it is priced low and you the buyer are accepting that , so if you are looking for a gem mint 10 or are a grade chaser this is not the one as I am not a Professional grader and do not profess to be one as EBAY has the approved list of graders .This card was taken from the pack to a soft sleeve for protection .



If there is also a notable flaw it will be listed as well, they don't care because most do not READ THE DESCRIPTION. While I allow free returns the INAD kill me JUST ASK FOR A RETURN and don't be a Richard Cranium.

So...you put a generic disclaimer on all your listings.

Okay.

It's substantial, but still generic. Describe your card, lol. Each card.

Even that won't kill all returns, because we all know there are idiots out there, but at least it will minimize them.

But...screw it. Do what you think is best (of course).
I'm just saying I don't have many problems. If you do, maybe you're just unlucky.

I feel for you. I really do. I just don't see or experience that myself.

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[jamcas997]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

So...you put a generic disclaimer on all your listings.

Okay.

It's substantial, but still generic. Describe your card, lol. Each card.

Even that won't kill all returns, because we all know there are idiots out there, but at least it will minimize them.

But...screw it. Do what you think is best (of course).
I'm just saying I don't have many problems. If you do, maybe you're just unlucky.

I feel for you. I really do. I just don't see or experience that myself.

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As you said not gem to keep them away , it still doesn't work. I am more than happy to take return , but the fact they don't read and try to INAD is BS. nrmt is a 7 so they should kick rocks if we were to split hairs here, but like I said just ask for the return.



The other issue is the 800 pound gorilla EBAY , if you get enough of these INAD returns they can add a 4% charge to your fees.