Will Brady rookie cards ever come back to Earth?

[jmscoggin]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

Did you type this with a straight face?

I mean, come on.

I've lived through the entire careers of each player he mentioned and thought everything he said was dead on. If you could turn off the homer blinders for a second or two maybe you'd be able to see the truth.

Brady is a great player and brings a ton of intangibles to the table but he isn't and never has been a trendsetter or a player that has reshaped the game. His career championship streak will likely never be beat even if he never adds another but that has as much to do with the organization and coach as it does with anything else. You put Marino, Brees, Rodgers on the Pats and you'd have the same amount of rings if not more.

Brady is an all time legend but he isn't the greatest QB ever, he isn't even the best of his generation. Winningest yes, best no. Some equate wins with best, I find that to be foolish when talking about a team sport, you likely disagree.

[BostonNut]

When did the "most brilliant organization" start taking place?

Was it when Kraft bought the team? No.

Was it when Belichick took over? No.

Was it when Brady took over? Yes.

But surely this is merely a coincidence.

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

Let's stop the nonsense with all this "team success" stuff with Brady. Brady has just two MVP's to his name and 2 first team all pro seasons in 17 years. Yes, winning is important but when you are engrossed in the most brilliant organization in NFL history would you not expect team success. If you look at the personnel decisions made by NE over the last 20 years, they are absolutely brilliant in every aspect. Belichik is able to pull Blount off the scrap heap (literally from his couch) when nobody else wanted him; and he is a 17 TD guy...... really? Nobody else saw value in him and he can score 17 TD's in a season with NE........ The sum of the Patriots is so far above and beyond the individual parts it is laughable. Brady is the perfect personality to mirror Belichick on this field. One without the other would not yield the same results. The value placed on the team in NE is SIGNIFICANTLY skewed. Those players all buy into a concept that makes the team much better than the parts.... Brady may not have individual monsters around him but he has 50 plus guys with the "Patriot Way" around him. Over the 17 years in NE that is much more valuable than having individual stars

The 07 team was without a doubt the most talented.... yet with 6 first team all pros on offense and a perfect season on the line they lost. It was not as complete of a team as earlier editions. Let's give credit to all the places where it is due (coaching, organization, style of play) and not lay all the accolades at Brady's feet.

[jmscoggin]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

Marino great arm loved to throw throw throw sort of like Peyton but those guys didn't know how to win games (close them out) when it was crunch time. And he couldn't even win a single SB. Matt Stafford comes to mind.

When you compare Marino to Stafford, you have become white noise. I'm not sure what's in the water in the NE but I'd advise you to quit drinking it, it's rotting your brain.

[BostonNut]

Name me one other 38+ year old non-mobile QB who manipulates the pocket like Brady does.

Name me one other QB in the game who is better at recognizing the defense pre-snap.

Name me one other QB in the game who can move the defense pre-snap with simply his eyes.

Just because he doesn't run around like crazy and create plays out of thin air doesn't mean he hasn't changed the game.

The Patriots were the first team in the modern era to go hyper-offense, were they not? Didn't that change the game?

Originally Posted by jmscoggin

I've lived through the entire careers of each player he mentioned and thought everything he said was dead on. If you could turn off the homer blinders for a second or two maybe you'd be able to see the truth.

Brady is a great player and brings a ton of intangibles to the table but he isn't and never has been a trendsetter or a player that has reshaped the game. His career championship streak will likely never be beat even if he never adds another but that has as much to do with the organization and coach as it does with anything else. You put Marino, Brees, Rodgers on the Pats and you'd have the same amount of rings if not more.

Brady is an all time legend but he isn't the greatest QB ever, he isn't even the best of his generation. Winningest yes, best no. Some equate wins with best, I find that to be foolish when talking about a team sport, you likely disagree.

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

Did you type this with a straight face?

I mean, come on.

Absolutely... please tell me what physically Brady does that Carr, Rodgers, Brees.. etc can not do?

Brady is practically a statue who can't throw on a roll out, he doesn't have superior arm strength; he doesn't do one thing physically that other really good QB's can't do. He does the basics consistently better than anyone who has ever played. He is ALWAYS accurate on the intermediate/short passing plays. He throws with superior anticipation and reads defenses well. He gets the most out of his skill set. He will never be seen as a prototype for anything, but he is sound in every single aspect of playing the position (including mental make up). Just like the organization itself... he is great in every technical aspect and leaves no weak spots in his game.

So let's pump the brakes on the "people out to get Brady" crap. He is a perfectionist with superior mental make up... he is not a physical specimen of any kind, nor is he a prototype that people can/will look to emulate physically moving forward.

That is my point... and yes with a perfectly straight face

[twisty571]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

I personally don't see how Brady could ever be considered the greatest football player ever. QB.... Yes, and it's probably with little resistance at this point

But if you look at what Jim Brown accomplished in his 9 year career... first team all pro 8 times, led league in rushing 8 times, led league in TD's 5 times. It is pretty clear that without question he was the most dominant force in NFL history. In an era where running the ball was like passing in today's game... Brown was better at his craft than Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, etc is/are/were at their craft today.

Rice could be argued strongly as well, his 10 all pro teams in an 11 year span are remarkable. He led the league in receiving 6 times, and receiving TD's 6 times as well. Jerry Rice scored 42 TD's after his 36th birthday...... there are only a handful of guys who can ever make a roster at that age.. let alone be productive in any aspect. Jerry Rice had more TD's after age 36 than Julio Jones has in his entire career

For dominance within the game at their positions... Brown and Rice stand alone and third is MUCH further back. Brady or a few other guys could be your third.......... but Brady never exhibited the dominance to get into the stratosphere of Brown or Rice. Brady was not even close to being the unquestioned best QB in his era if you weight the post season lightly (Rodgers and Manning did exactly what Brady did in the regular season and in most instances did it better). Brady has a handful of really solid post season games that propels his QB argument over the top for QB's. He played big in some big post season games and he played less than great in others.

I could easily see Brady as the third best player ever... but that is where it ends for me. Nothing he does at this point could move him any higher

Apparently your reading comprehension is off to my friend.....

I was speaking to the comments that the only thing Brady will be remembered for is his will to win & the comments on him not being dominant. Also commented on the current casual NFL fan. As far as Manning/Marino/Elway etc changing the game.....no they didn't. No more than any other new player. Sure they are all special in their own right.

I was able to watch all these guys Montana/Elway/Marino/Rice/Barry/Brett/Bradshaw/Emmitt/Walter/Aikman.....

People who are very young casual fans aren't going to know of players like Brown/Unitas/Montana/Elway/Marino because they weren't around to watch them. Only what they see on a clip or show. They will remember the guy who is currently winning everything. Sure they will hear the chatter in arguments to & for but you go ask that 10-15 year old who Jim Brown was......then go ask them who Tom Brady is.......

As far as dominance goes as you keep saying.....you tell me anyone who has more success and won more? He isn't dominant? Who else is going to touch any of his post season records? As I said and I am not the only one to say this....it is being discussed by the Pro's is he has done it with the least over his career. The 1 year he had a big HOF WR (Moss) he was breaking all the records and went undefeated. I call 16 years of great QB play and being a top 5 QB for most of that & you know going to 7 (winning 5) Super Bowls kind of dominant.

edit to add: I did say I wasn't saying he was the best FB player ever.......just commenting on the BS dominance thing...

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by jmscoggin

When you compare Marino to Stafford, you have become white noise. I'm not sure what's in the water in the NE but I'd advise you to quit drinking it, it's rotting your brain.

What you don't think Stafford puts up some really good stats?

[jasonm2121]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

And Otto Graham or Sammy Baugh have won nine or seven championships...he can't remember which one...

Hard to keep track

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

When did the "most brilliant organization" start taking place?

Was it when Kraft bought the team? No.

Was it when Belichick took over? No.

Was it when Brady took over? Yes.

But surely this is merely a coincidence.

You will never find an all time great QB with 3-4 SB's without an all time great coach/organization.... They go hand in hand. If you reference on season under Belichik where they went 5-11... I will reference the 20 games played without Brady where they went 14-6.

The two feed off each other and the sum of the Patriots organization is significantly more than the individual pieces. They play really strong defense with largely mediocre players over the entire 17 years..... that's because of Brady? No, it's not. Having what I think is the greatest kicker in NFL history, then followed by the most efficient kicker in NFL history is because of Brady? No, it's not. It's because of the next man up philosophy that nobody else can emulate. Brady would have been a great anywhere, you can just see the determination and drive in him..... but in NE paired with Belichik and the organizational genius; it's just on an all time great level never seen in any sport.

I just encourage you to appreciate the organizational greatness and coaching above that of just Brady. I believe NE would have won a SB or two without Brady... and I believe Brady would have won multiple super bowls elsewhere (unless playing for the Browns or Lions)...... but the synergistic effect of being together is off the charts amazing. That is my point

[MFaulkCollector]

you bolded a comment where someone said manning/marino/etc changed the sport.... then you replied about team stuff with Brady

Brady individually did not change the game in any way.. that is all

Originally Posted by twisty571

Apparently your reading comprehension is off to my friend.....

I was speaking to the comments that the only thing Brady will be remembered for is his will to win & the comments on him not being dominant. Also commented on the current casual NFL fan. As far as Manning/Marino/Elway etc changing the game.....no they didn't. No more than any other new player. Sure they are all special in their own right.

I was able to watch all these guys Montana/Elway/Marino/Rice/Barry/Brett/Bradshaw/Emmitt/Walter/Aikman.....

People who are very young casual fans aren't going to know of players like Brown/Unitas/Montana/Elway/Marino because they weren't around to watch them. Only what they see on a clip or show. They will remember the guy who is currently winning everything. Sure they will hear the chatter in arguments to & for but you go ask that 10-15 year old who Jim Brown was......then go ask them who Tom Brady is.......

As far as dominance goes as you keep saying.....you tell me anyone who has more success and won more? He isn't dominant? Who else is going to touch any of his post season records? As I said and I am not the only one to say this....it is being discussed by the Pro's is he has done it with the least over his career. The 1 year he had a big HOF WR (Moss) he was breaking all the records and went undefeated. I call 16 years of great QB play and being a top 5 QB for most of that & you know going to 7 (winning 5) Super Bowls kind of dominant.

edit to add: I did say I wasn't saying he was the best FB player ever.......just commenting on the BS dominance thing...

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

you bolded a comment where someone said Brady did not change the game.... then you replied.

he did not change the game in any way.. that is all

He's changed the game by being the smartest and knowing how to close out games and not focusing on padding stats. He's changed the game by working harder then anyone else and conditioning his body. He's changed the game by finding and attacking and exposing the other teams weakness on a regular basis. How many stories have you read about a player sneaking into the complex and studying game film at 1 am? Probably not many

[twisty571]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

You will never find an all time great QB with 3-4 SB's without an all time great coach/organization.... They go hand in hand. If you reference on season under Belichik where they went 5-11... I will reference the 20 games played without Brady where they went 14-6.

The two feed off each other and the sum of the Patriots organization is significantly more than the individual pieces. They play really strong defense with largely mediocre players over the entire 17 years..... that's because of Brady? No, it's not. Having what I think is the greatest kicker in NFL history, then followed by the most efficient kicker in NFL history is because of Brady? No, it's not. It's because of the next man up philosophy that nobody else can emulate. Brady would have been a great anywhere, you can just see the determination and drive in him..... but in NE paired with Belichik and the organizational genius; it's just on an all time great level never seen in any sport.

I just encourage you to appreciate the organizational greatness and coaching above that of just Brady. I believe NE would have won a SB or two without Brady... and I believe Brady would have won multiple super bowls elsewhere (unless playing for the Browns or Lions)...... but the synergistic effect of being together is off the charts amazing. That is my point

I agree....both Brady & Bill have definitely helped each other and that organization is top notch. It all had to be for a run like that! I do agree that both the organization would have had success without Brady and Brady with out them but we will never know because it won't ever happen.

[jasonm2121]

Hey remember that awesome person in life who had a shitty everything? Me either. Move along.

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

He's changed the game by being the smartest and knowing how to close out games and not focusing on padding stats. He's changed the game by working harder then anyone else and conditioning his body. He's changed the game by finding and attacking and exposing the other teams weakness on a regular basis. How many stories have you read about a player sneaking into the complex and studying game film at 1 am? Probably not many

and none of that was changing the game by his physical prowess.... which is what was being referred to

he is the ultimate technician and deadly accurate from 0-15 yards. He performs the basics like a machine, better than anyone ever. He doesn't call his own plays, so the game plan is not him... but yes he studies film a lot, more than anyone ever? Maybe, maybe not

But he will never be remembered for anything he does/did physically that others could not do. He will be remembered just like this dynasty... like a technician who always made the play that was in front of him, always was prepared for the moment, and always made the most of the talent he had

That will be the legacy of Tom Brady.... Always dependable, always prepared, always made the best of every situation.

He does the stuff every QB can do, he just does it at a success rate better than anyone else and in situations other guys wouldn't have the stomach for. He is indeed a special player.... but he is not an overly special physical talent

[twisty571]

Originally Posted by jasonm2121

Hey remember that awesome person in life who had a shitty everything? Me either. Move along.

Look I get the arguments that he isn't the greatest FB player ever. Yes he wasn't a physical specimen like Jim Brown or Jerry Rice. But it's more than just the physical part. You know the argument that Brady had Bill & the organization so he gets no credit argument....well lets just do the same for Rice....Montana/Walsh & the rest of the 49ers organization. I wasn't around to watch Jim Brown play. Also football was a little different then,not as complex. I only saw clips so he wouldn't be my all time FB player. To me Barry is my all time back. Some like Walter. As was my point in a couple earlier posts. People will call the players they watch and loved as the greatest thru out time.

[k13]

Plays in a joke era where you can't touch the QB and hit receivers.

Meaningless records.

There's a reason why QB ratings have gone thru the roof and not because QB's have become better.

[jasonm2121]

Originally Posted by twisty571

Look I get the arguments that he isn't the greatest FB player ever. Yes he wasn't a physical specimen like Jim Brown or Jerry Rice. But it's more than just the physical part. You know the argument that Brady had Bill & the organization so he gets no credit argument....well lets just do the same for Rice....Montana/Walsh & the rest of the 49ers organization. I wasn't around to watch Jim Brown play. Also football was a little different then,not as complex. I only saw clips so he wouldn't be my all time FB player. To me Barry is my all time back. Some like Walter. As was my point in a couple earlier posts. People will call the players they watch and loved as the greatest thru out time.

I have been saying the same thing for years. People pick and choose. Up until the SB, it was Montana, who is not athletic in relation to other position players obviously. So then, Brady wins in epic fashion, most say he is the best but the ones that do not, now point out that is not athletic and could not play another position. Ok, because Joe could? hahahaha GTFO.

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by twisty571

I agree....both Brady & Bill have definitely helped each other and that organization is top notch. It all had to be for a run like that! I do agree that both the organization would have had success without Brady and Brady with out them but we will never know because it won't ever happen.

That is all I am trying to say.... let's not lay it all at Brady's feet... just to understand the amount of moving parts and how special the teams are in NE as a whole... The team's ability to perform as a whole significantly exceeds the talent level. To have that synergistic effect for this long is truly amazing and it's the only way to win so many games for so long... just remarkable

But we can agree to agree for once, haha... at least for now

[twisty571]

Originally Posted by jasonm2121

I have been saying the same thing for years. People pick and choose. Up until the SB, it was Montana, who is not athletic in relation to other position players obviously. So then, Brady wins in epic fashion, most say he is the best but the ones that do not, now point out that is not athletic and could not play another position. Ok, because Joe could? hahahaha GTFO.

Yes I agree. I see the stuff posted before this SB win that he hasn't won any on his own or he has Bill or he needs 1 more or 2 more or he needs to do this or that and then Brady does it and.......now there are other things that need to be done. What I find hard to believe even from die hard haters is that they can't just let it go and admit to the greatness that has been Brady & Bill & the Pat's organization. Some have! I guess I could have been a hater but the Pat's have kept employing my favorite Michigan players....Ty Law....then Brady. Hell I liked the Bears when they had A-train!

[jasonm2121]

Originally Posted by twisty571

Yes I agree. I see the stuff posted before this SB win that he hasn't won any on his own or he has Bill or he needs 1 more or 2 more or he needs to do this or that and then Brady does it and.......now there are other things that need to be done. What I find hard to believe even from die hard haters is that they can't just let it go and admit to the greatness that has been Brady & Bill & the Pat's organization. Some have! I guess I could have been a hater but the Pat's have kept employing my favorite Michigan players....Ty Law....then Brady. Hell I liked the Bears when they had A-train!

Yea, at this point, any other excuse is just sad and dismissed. It is done. He is the best of the best. Nothing else to discuss at this point. I do love that now, Montana is like, we cannot say. Get real. We can and we will and we just did.

[BostonNut]

If Brady were available in trade RIGHT NOW what would the Pats get in return for him?

I mean, he's clearly nothing without the system and without Belichick. So, nothing more than a 4th, right? Probably not even that.

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

You will never find an all time great QB with 3-4 SB's without an all time great coach/organization.... They go hand in hand. If you reference on season under Belichik where they went 5-11... I will reference the 20 games played without Brady where they went 14-6.

The two feed off each other and the sum of the Patriots organization is significantly more than the individual pieces. They play really strong defense with largely mediocre players over the entire 17 years..... that's because of Brady? No, it's not. Having what I think is the greatest kicker in NFL history, then followed by the most efficient kicker in NFL history is because of Brady? No, it's not. It's because of the next man up philosophy that nobody else can emulate. Brady would have been a great anywhere, you can just see the determination and drive in him..... but in NE paired with Belichik and the organizational genius; it's just on an all time great level never seen in any sport.

I just encourage you to appreciate the organizational greatness and coaching above that of just Brady. I believe NE would have won a SB or two without Brady... and I believe Brady would have won multiple super bowls elsewhere (unless playing for the Browns or Lions)...... but the synergistic effect of being together is off the charts amazing. That is my point

[BostonNut]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

He's changed the game by being the smartest and knowing how to close out games and not focusing on padding stats. He's changed the game by working harder then anyone else and conditioning his body. He's changed the game by finding and attacking and exposing the other teams weakness on a regular basis. How many stories have you read about a player sneaking into the complex and studying game film at 1 am? Probably not many

I mean, heck...isn't he the oldest QB to ever win a SB? Isn't that changing the game?

[RogerGodahell]

All of these people say Tom is the GOAT when doing a quick google search. I tend to value their opinion a little more over some random Tom Brady hater on Blowout forums.

Brett Favre
Joe Theismann
Boomer Esiason
Ray Lewis
Jimmy Johnson
Troy Aikman
LeBron James
Shannon Sharpe
Reggie Wayne
Randy Moss
Fran Tarkenton
Ed Reed
Darrelle Revis
Kurt Warner
Hines Ward
Barry Sanders
Jim Harbaugh
Michael Irvin
Deion Sanders
Jim Kelly
Joe Namath
Von Miller
Ben Roethlisberger
Chris Carter

[jasonm2121]

Their approach and ability to change styles of offenses on a weekly basis, and do so very successfully, is sure as sht game changing. End of story.

[BostonNut]

But surely Drew Brees....who played in a dome his entire career...would have won more Super Bowls in New England than Brady has!

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

All of these people say Tom is the GOAT when doing a quick google search. I tend to value their opinion a little more over some random Tom Brady hater on Blowout forums.

Brett Favre
Joe Theismann
Boomer Esiason
Ray Lewis
Jimmy Johnson
Troy Aikman
LeBron James
Shannon Sharpe
Reggie Wayne
Randy Moss
Fran Tarkenton
Ed Reed
Darrelle Revis
Kurt Warner
Hines Ward
Barry Sanders
Jim Harbaugh
Michael Irvin
Deion Sanders
Jim Kelly
Joe Namath
Von Miller
Ben Roethlisberger
Chris Carter