The Rise of a New Elite Shortstop Class?

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by whitmm

What I find fascinating is that you say Cal's prime ended at age 30, yet you're talking about all these other guys being in their prime in their mid 30s

Cal's drop-off might have had to do with being a big-bodied shortstop who played literally every game.

Larkin got rest every season and wasn't particularly durable.

[cardsin47]

As much as I love the position, I’m it not seeing any noteworthy, widespread elite Shortstops throughout the League. Just a typical dispersement of good , very good and a great or 2 ….

[Raleigh504]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

I’m seeing it from the hobby standpoint primarily.

By definition, you can only have one alpha hobby male per team. Even on the Angels, it was Trout, then it became Ohtani when they were on the same team.

Every young prospect has the 30/30,.300 potential, the guys you mentioned have to sustain that for a decade before they can be properly awarded. Otherwise, you could say every 5 years there’s a generational batch of young shortstops who could set the hobby on fire.

If Bobby gets even close to the career numbers of where Lindor is today, he would become an MLB success but may no longer be a hobby success - see where Lindor’s cards sell for today.

There wasn’t much higher hype in this hobby ever for Jeter/arod/nomar when they were 3-5th year players. Today is nothing compared to when they dominated the hobby.

The problem with Lindor is he was the guy in Cleveland and played on good teams while there (could be similar for Witt if his teams have a run of a few good playoff teams and win a series or two in the playoffs). Then went to the Mets where they are second fiddle to the Yankees and the team isn't doing great, Pete Alonso is the guy there. If Witt stays long term there and gets to the playoffs, wins a few series (maybe sneaks a WS win) then he will remain relevant in the hobby with continued success.

[Bunny Hop]

I'm old enough to remember when Fernando Tatis Jr double jumped in real life to snag a line drive.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by Bunny Hop

I'm old enough to remember when Fernando Tatis Jr double jumped in real life to snag a line drive.

PEDs will sink anyone’s hobby love. He would still be a big name here otherwise.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Raleigh504

The problem with Lindor is he was the guy in Cleveland and played on good teams while there (could be similar for Witt if his teams have a run of a few good playoff teams and win a series or two in the playoffs). Then went to the Mets where they are second fiddle to the Yankees and the team isn't doing great, Pete Alonso is the guy there. If Witt stays long term there and gets to the playoffs, wins a few series (maybe sneaks a WS win) then he will remain relevant in the hobby with continued success.

Or, despite the royals going to the playoffs, Witt cards still follow the Lindor price trends as new speculators jump on the next “generational talent” bandwagon.

[Melagoo]

Bo Bichette is a short-stop ... young and great hitter ... defense needs work

[fabiani12333]

I'll try to apply some logic to the discussion of shortstop card investing -- since the start of the BCA era in 2001, when has there ever been a shortstop worth holding long term? Never is the answer.

That's not to say it won't ever happen -- there are some promising young guys now -- but it's clear that SS is not a smart position to invest in.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

I'll try to apply some logic to the discussion of shortstop card investing -- since the start of the BCA era in 2001, when has there ever been a shortstop worth holding long term? Never is the answer.

That's not to say it won't ever happen -- there are some promising young guys now -- but it's clear that SS is not a smart position to invest in.

The best logic is to look at the buy-in prices - is $400 to $1000 really the wisest use of your money to purchase BCA of the next top rated SS, or any other position for that matter?

Buy high, sell low when you are desperate for money.

[Mephisto]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

I don’t believe we are.

Larkin, Jeter, Nomar, and Arod set a pretty high standard for the term elite.

If EDLC can stick with it for another 8-10 years, he would be the most special. But people like Elly don’t come around too often. It’s likely he won’t sustain for that time, a decade is a long time.

The orioles are too loaded with potential hobby stars for Gunnar to stand out.

Witt will live in Jrods shadow from the hobby standpoint.

CJ Abrams has too many other film projects coming up to focus on baseball.

I always think of Tejada more than Larkin with that group. They all came up 94-97 when Larkin had around a decade under his belt by that point.


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[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Mephisto

I always think of Tejada more than Larkin with that group. They all came up 94-97 when Larkin had around a decade under his belt by that point.


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Good call, Tejada was really hyped as part of that 1997 bowman class.

[Mephisto]

Originally Posted by Rbradleigh

Nomar roided out of his gourd? Don’t believe I ever read any of these accusations or conjecture til now?


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My coworker played D1 baseball and mentioned his first strikeout in college was none other than Nomar and when he said that the next thing out of his mouth was “juicer”. I asked him about that and he said he had no doubt he juiced after college.

I didn’t remember hearing anything about him ever being accused of PEDs, so I went on Google and sure enough there were some things I had forgotten. One was whispers after the shirtless Sports Illustrated cover. He didn’t look that big but Palmeiro never looked particularly big or muscular. The other thing I found that I probably knew but had forgotten was Bob Ryan publicly questioned whether Nomar took steroids which caused a stir at the time.


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[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Mephisto

I always think of Tejada more than Larkin with that group. They all came up 94-97 when Larkin had around a decade under his belt by that point.


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Shoot -- I'll take your Tejada and raise you an Edgar Renteria -- "Off Nagy's glove ..."

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Mephisto

My coworker played D1 baseball and mentioned his first strikeout in college was none other than Nomar and when he said that the next thing out of his mouth was “juicer”. I asked him about that and he said he had no doubt he juiced after college.

I didn’t remember hearing anything about him ever being accused of PEDs, so I went on Google and sure enough there were some things I had forgotten. One was whispers after the shirtless Sports Illustrated cover. He didn’t look that big but Palmeiro never looked particularly big or muscular. The other thing I found that I probably knew but had forgotten was Bob Ryan publicly questioned whether Nomar took steroids which caused a stir at the time.


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What? No-mar juicing? Get atta here!

[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

What? No-mar juicing? Get atta here!

Trivia most people don’t know!
Nomar was named by his Father Ramon ( that’s Nomar spelled backwards )

[eye4talent]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

What? No-mar juicing? Get atta here!

And from the left side…



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[fungi2510]

It just cannot ever stay on topic can it?

[atk825]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

That just means you haven’t been watching him play. If you only track HR totals and fantasy rankings I could see someone thinking that, but CJ is the real deal. Not just at hitting HRs, but his fielding and base running are elite. I hate saying nice things about him, but I’m close to being completely priced-out of anything good. I have currently Witt/Elly/Gunnar ranked night, CJ is right there with them. I think I might have CJ third actually.

CJ has certainly shown a longer track record of production than EDLC.

[atk825]

Originally Posted by eye4talent

And from the left side…



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You mean to tell me that people fill out from when they are 16 or 17?!?

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by atk825

CJ has certainly shown a longer track record of production than EDLC.

It’s hard for me to judge, honestly. I’m biased. I’ve just been a CJ fan since day 1, so I want to see him succeed.

[eye4talent]

Originally Posted by atk825

You mean to tell me that people fill out from when they are 16 or 17?!?

He’s actually 19 there. People so certainly continue filling out after 19. But there’s filling out, and then there’s changing your body type.


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[whitmm]

Originally Posted by eye4talent

He’s actually 19 there. People so certainly continue filling out after 19. But there’s filling out, and then there’s changing your body type.


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https://vault.si.com/vault/2001/03/0...ers-holy-grail

There's the article the "after" pic is from. Take it for what it's worth.

Should note, the before picture is a 19 year old Nomar. The after picture is a 27 year old Nomar. Eight years is a long time for that body change.

[Rbradleigh]

Abrams pushing an elite bat at SS, imo.
Funny, listening in on the Marlins game and the announcers are talking his lefty/righty splits, and sure enough he takes the L Rogers deep


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[atk825]

Originally Posted by Rbradleigh

Abrams pushing an elite bat at SS, imo.
Funny, listening in on the Marlins game and the announcers are talking his lefty/righty splits, and sure enough he takes the L Rogers deep


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It’s not even fluky homers. His power is legit 25-30 HR stuff.

[eye4talent]

Gunnar, Elly and CJ all went deep today, with all three currently top 10 in homers in all of MLB. Gunnar is tied with Trout for the lead.

So, I understand the reluctance of some
To anoint anyone youngster as elite or a hobby giants in the making. But man, these guys are really good.

Gunnar’s swing is as impactful at the point of contact as it gets. Elly is probably more athletic than Tatis, and CJ appears to be at least a lefty Trea Turner—and being a lefty hitter naturally gives him an edge over his righty version.

There’s a lot to like about these guys.


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