Messi's brother doing his on-card signing during 2017-18

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by WHyFLy

You cannot compare swapped patches and wiped/re-signed autos to this situation. Those are proven 100% counterfeits or altered cards.

My point was that the grading company is NOT EVALUATING EITHER for authenticity. It's a tremendous failure of their business model.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by WHyFLy

You cannot compare swapped patches and wiped/re-signed autos to this situation. Those are proven 100% counterfeits or altered cards. The only comparison to this type of situation is the Luka situation or the Dak Auto-Pen. There is no conclusive consensus on this yet, all speculation. Until we have a definitive response by Panini or Messi, all of this can be suspected but not proven guilty. As a result, we will not see an effect on market. Additionally, the amount of money that is being questioned here is way to much and would be a nightmare. I don't expect we will see anything come to the spotlight and this will be another under the rug situation.

All that will happen is this will detour people from buying 17-18. Some people will avoid buying but majority will still buy even if questioned.

The job of PSA/DNA and BAS is entirely speculation then by that logic.

[WHyFLy]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

The job of PSA/DNA and BAS is entirely speculation then by that logic.

Honestly, does that shock you? I mean how many issues have we seen PSA and BGS along with their auto authentication has been passed through? I do not take any of their "guarantees" seriously nor do I trust it most the time. That is why we all still have to look into the card itself before anything. To say PSA/DNA and BAS is the end all and be all to determine how real something is wrong in my opinion.

From what I have witnessed and what I think, they speculate it is real based on the guarantee they see on the back of the card. All they check is to see if the card wasn't tampered with in some way (which they still screw up at times) and go from there.

[WHyFLy]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

My point was that the grading company is NOT EVALUATING EITHER for authenticity. It's a tremendous failure of their business model.

Honestly does that shock you? Why don't we all take a look at how much fake stuff has passed through authentication purposes by these big companies in EVERY aspect of the business. I mean didn't we just witness BBCE screw up on a $3.5 Million Dollar Case yet they are the leading industry in authenticating Sealed Product? What about all the counterfeit cards that made its way through circulation through BGS and PSA? Or the all the cards with altered autographs that were deemed authentic? I mean come on here, we cannot give PSA and BGS any sort of "industry standard". They have screwed up as much as anyone.

[JWBlue]

PSA autograph evaluation includes authentication.

https://www.psacard.com/services/dualgrading

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by JWBlue

PSA autograph evaluation includes authentication.

But these factory released cards from 1998-present do not require PSA/DNA as a requirement. They are presumed good by PSA and never touch the desk of auto authenticators unless specifically submitted that way by the customer. That's the flaw.

[KhalDrogo]

The burden of proof is extraordinarily high to deny a pack issued autograph that is guaranteed by the company. The evidence against the Lulu autos was much better than against Messi. And look how that turned out.

[WHyFLy]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

The burden of proof is extraordinarily high to deny a pack issued autograph that is guaranteed by the company. The evidence against the Lulu autos was much better than against Messi. And look how that turned out.

Agreed, I mean we can speculate as much as we want and we can confirm in our own opinions what we think is real or not, but the market and the amount of money involved is going to shut down this concept real quick. Until we see some sort of definitive response by Messi himself or Panini/Topps, we will not see any change in market value or demand. Only thing that will change is it eliminates a MICRO portion of potential buyers from the market who want a Messi Auto. This argument will die on a vine real quick just like the LULU debate.

[JWBlue]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

But these factory released cards from 1998-present do not require PSA/DNA as a requirement. They are presumed good by PSA and never touch the desk of auto authenticators unless specifically submitted that way by the customer. That's the flaw.

Interesting. Is it possible to request authentication of an auto from a manufacturer?

I do not trust any autograph authenticator.

[Gin&Juice]

Originally Posted by WHyFLy

Honestly does that shock you? Why don't we all take a look at how much fake stuff has passed through authentication purposes by these big companies in EVERY aspect of the business. I mean didn't we just witness BBCE screw up on a $3.5 Million Dollar Case yet they are the leading industry in authenticating Sealed Product? What about all the counterfeit cards that made its way through circulation through BGS and PSA? Or the all the cards with altered autographs that were deemed authentic? I mean come on here, we cannot give PSA and BGS any sort of "industry standard". They have screwed up as much as anyone.

Tough hobby when you can’t trust guarantee from the two biggest card manufacturers or two biggest authentication services in the industry. All have guaranteed/authenticated the Messi auto in question. Panini used it on 1 of 1 cards for its highest end release ever. It had to know that particular card was going to get a lot of scrutiny.

[WHyFLy]

Originally Posted by Gin&Juice

Tough hobby when you can’t trust guarantee from the two biggest card manufacturers or two biggest authentication services in the industry. All have guaranteed/authenticated the Messi auto in question. Panini used it on 1 of 1 cards for its highest end release ever. It had to know that particular card was going to get a lot of scrutiny.

Welcome to the new age of Cards... Unfortunately, this is the state we are all in where leading "industry giants" are not even trustworthy and some of the biggest presences in the industry being called out for negative issues. I mean we have witnessed so much negativity in this hobby in just the past 2 weeks that it is truly sickening. I've personally withdrawn from the hobby myself more than I have before because of all the negative stigma from these companies taking full advantage of all of us yet producing s**t quality products (manufacturers, authenticators, and grading companies) and the people who represent the hobby doing shady and questionable practices due to greed.

And want to know the worst part? We are letting them do it... and handing off the future of these markets to people who claim to be "experts" yet haven't even gone more than 5 years in this hobby. Just look at the keynote speakers at the Industry Summit from the past year and the next year...

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by JWBlue

Interesting. Is it possible to request authentication of an auto from a manufacturer?

Not from a grading company. Your best bet for those is to buy factory encapsulated cards, but even then, the auto might have been signed by a family member. Card production companies aren't in the business of determining whether or not autographs sent to them are actually done by the player pictured, although some do send representatives to watch the autographs being accomplished.
So the authentication would be an affidavit from the company rep. I think some are now viewing the signings via webcam, so maybe they would have the footage stored on their computers that they could send you a screenshot of. But that costs money in terms of employee salaries.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

The burden of proof is extraordinarily high to deny a pack issued autograph that is guaranteed by the company. The evidence against the Lulu autos was much better than against Messi. And look how that turned out.

I guess someone will have to test PSA's liability on their grade guarantee concerning this for them to care, since a card with a fake autograph shouldn't receive a number grade. They already have a short list of cards that have to go through PSA/DNA because they're commonly faked (certain Tom Brady, Willie Mays, etc).

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

I guess someone will have to test PSA's liability on their grade guarantee concerning this for them to care, since a card with a fake autograph shouldn't receive a number grade. They already have a short list of cards that have to go through PSA/DNA because they're commonly faked (certain Tom Brady, Willie Mays, etc).

The guarantee doesn’t apply to autos. Pretty sure you already knew that. And it doesn’t apply exactly for this reason. PSA isn’t going to take on the liability for a player defrauding the manufacturer and collectors.

[Gin&Juice]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

The guarantee doesn’t apply to autos. Pretty sure you already knew that. And it doesn’t apply exactly for this reason. PSA isn’t going to take on the liability for a player defrauding the manufacturer and collectors.

But, PSA specifically authenticated the Messi auto in question through PSA/DNA: https://www.ebay.com/itm/28461221281...MAAOSw9YdfjkT1


What service was provided in this instance, if not authentication of the auto?

[YayNJ]

The issue is, graphology is generally considered a pseudoscience. You could open a huge can of worms on the whole auto industry / and the whole grading & authenticating of them. It's common knowledge that relic/patch cards are a scam, why do you all believe autographs are some enshrined holy practice?

Unless the signing is on video, everything is opinion, and nothing backed by science. Just some dudes opinion.

Now how about this for an idea - every auto card is on the blockchain / has a QR code or whatever that you scan to see a video clip of that specific card being signed. It would be a lot of work, but eradicates any issues like this or with Doncic.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Gin&Juice

But, PSA specifically authenticated the Messi auto in question through PSA/DNA: https://www.ebay.com/itm/28461221281...MAAOSw9YdfjkT1


What service was provided in this instance, if not authentication of the auto?

I’m speaking to the guarantee.

[Ianhatcher]

Originally Posted by YayNJ

The issue is, graphology is generally considered a pseudoscience. You could open a huge can of worms on the whole auto industry / and the whole grading & authenticating of them. It's common knowledge that relic/patch cards are a scam, why do you all believe autographs are some enshrined holy practice?

Unless the signing is on video, everything is opinion, and nothing backed by science. Just some dudes opinion.

Now how about this for an idea - every auto card is on the blockchain / has a QR code or whatever that you scan to see a video clip of that specific card being signed. It would be a lot of work, but eradicates any issues like this or with Doncic.

It isn't Graphology to determine if the auto is a forgery.

This would be a forensic handwriting expert to determine if this was a forgery and one could do that if you had an example of Leo's brothers signature which is most certainly can be used as evidence in criminal cases.

I don't think the hobby would pursue that as too many people have too much to lose. We need Rattle.

Like others have said I don't think this will effect the pricing too much other than cards dipping normally of late but for me personally I would much rather go after other on card autos than this now.

[MonsterTruck20]

Originally Posted by Ianhatcher

Like others have said I don't think this will effect the pricing too much other than cards dipping normally of late but for me personally I would much rather go after other on card autos than this now.

I think anyone who is aware would much rather go after other on card autos than this one now. But most people are not aware and as you mentioned owners and manufacturer of those cards have a lot to lose and will prevent the issue from becoming too well known. That is why the pricing won't be affected too much.

[Raj3sh]

Gv sports cards have posted a pic of messi holding with his eminence auto

https://m.facebook.com/groups/GVSpor...ce=feed_mobile

[WHyFLy]

Originally Posted by Raj3sh

Gv sports cards have posted a pic of messi holding with his eminence auto

https://m.facebook.com/groups/GVSpor...ce=feed_mobile

And there goes all these skeptics. Okay everyone case closed!

[MonsterTruck20]

Originally Posted by Raj3sh

Gv sports cards have posted a pic of messi holding with his eminence auto

https://m.facebook.com/groups/GVSpor...ce=feed_mobile

Can you post the pic?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Raj3sh

Gv sports cards have posted a pic of messi holding with his eminence auto

https://m.facebook.com/groups/GVSpor...ce=feed_mobile

[Raj3sh]

Originally Posted by MonsterTruck20

Can you post the pic?

[Raj3sh]