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BASKETBALL Post your Basketball Cards Hobby Talk |
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#51 |
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#52 | |
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#54 |
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No he was way off at 24 and 10.8 before he got the LeBron treatment.
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Wanted, 03/04 Exquisite Base Gold Tim Duncan and 05/06 Exquisite Base Gold /25 Michael Jordan |
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#55 | |
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There was TD, KG, Dirk and C. Webb right there. Dude was elite. Billups was an incredible PG that used to dominate the rest at his position. Dude was clutch. All 3 should and will be in the HOF.
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Wanted, 03/04 Exquisite Base Gold Tim Duncan and 05/06 Exquisite Base Gold /25 Michael Jordan |
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#56 |
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I agree and my view was a little skewed because I was thinking of it more in terms of NBA HOF but there is no such thing and the Basketball HOF looks at a players entire basketball life not just NBA.
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#57 |
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No, don't need a new book. I watched all of them play their entire careers and all were good players but not Elite all time players. Webber had some good years but was never a top 10 overall player. He was only inside the top 20 in points twice in his career, inside the top 10 in reb twice in his career. That doesn't sound like and Elite player to me. Good player absolutely. The thing about Billups is that the Pistons just had a good all around team and everyone played their roles very well. There was no Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, Bird, Magic, ect ect on that team. They played gritty Detroit basketball and were very good at it but no one individual stood out from the rest on that team.
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https://www.flickr.com/gp/151086784@N06/28H47r Last edited by sethc1020; 03-15-2021 at 09:07 AM. |
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#58 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 14,468
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I wish there was a separate NBA HOF but I doubt that ever happens.
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#59 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 918
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Re: All he needed to do was become Horace Grant. Also a better player than Aldridge imho. I think you put way too much value in C-list alphas. If you want to win a title, you don't have Aldridge play Aldridge. He would need to adapt, and he showed a resistance to such adaptation. Re: All-NBA teams. As I've mentioned, I don't take these things that seriously. They are opinions from people who are generally behind the times analytically, and they have a tendency to focus on rewarding alphas rather than guys whose play can lead to titles. Re: eliminates 2 ring advantage. I'm not counting rings, and neither should anyone else imho. I'm saying that Bosh proved more to me in his ability to take on a variety of roles than Aldridge, and that Bosh showed a willingness to do so while Aldridge had a variety of ego/insecurity hand ups. Last edited by Tallboy; 03-15-2021 at 11:07 AM. |
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#61 |
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Glad I was able to stir up a hornets nest
![]() ![]() Like quite a few stated the HOF of both Basketball and Football are watered down. I'm just of the mind you don't let past judgement errors dictate future ones. Let's put it this way no team ever feared Bosh coming out of the eastern conference finals to threaten the Wests runs at a chip. Now teams did fear Ben Wallace yet he still sits outside that "illustrious" group also the person who stated Scottie and Rodman were both HOFs due to Jordan were clearly not watching in that era. Rodman was a dominant defensive presence since he came into the league well before going to the bulls and Scottie was one of the best in the league at on ball defense while also being a very capable scorer. His skill set would have carried him to his HOF career with Or WITHOUT Jordan Sent from my KYOCERA-E6920 using Tapatalk |
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#62 |
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I would not vote him in but who really has any respect for the HOF? The HOF is a joke, it doesn't mean a thing anymore.
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#63 |
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Join Date: Aug 2020
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#64 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,179
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Everyone keeps saying this without showing any work.
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#65 | |
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Location: Long Beach, CA
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You're talking about a guy who was seen as a bit of a disappointment until he showed up in Sacramento, but when Sacramento became such a huge success with Webber in the big stat role, he started getting talked about as a top tier superstar. But the Kings were good with and without Webber. Webber's volume scoring wasn't very efficient even back then, and today you wouldn't consider using someone like that as your alpha. Moreover the key to those Kings' success was the inside-out passing to 3-point shooters, and while Webber was a capable passer, Vlade Divac was huge in this capacity as well. Beyond all that there's the matter that guys like Duncan & KG were DPOY level defenders and Webber was nothing close to that, while Dirk was a drastically more dangerous scoring threat. Webber's rise in stature with the success of the Kings may well be enough, in conjunction with his place on the Fab 5, for Webber to get in the Hall, but there's little doubt that he got overrated in Sacramento on the assumption that he was "the star" and everyone else around him was far less than him. The Kings' success was much more about team work as opposed to individual brilliance. |
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#66 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 918
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1. I think we all agree that Billups was not a top tier superstar like the Jordans and Magics of the world. 2. But as the Pistons evolved, Billups became the clear cut offensive star of the team. This wasn't the case when they won the title in '03-04, but Billups got better after that. He proved to be the keystone holding the Pistons up in later year, then there was the swap with AI where basically he looked like a better player than AI, who is of course a lock for the Hall. |
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#67 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 918
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If you're not old enough to have been an adult back then, then the HOF has basically been like this the entire time you've been around. |
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#68 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Long Beach, CA
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One thing Re: Basketball & Football watered down. While there are certainly guys getting in the Hall I wouldn't put in, when you put it this way there's an elephant in the room: You're implying that the Baseball HOF is the one with the most cred. And I'd say the Baseball HOF is the biggest joke there is. First, the notion of a "first ballot HOFer" comes from baseball and its ridiculous. You literally have voters who think it's their duty to vote "No" the first time through to basically everybody, which means that these voters have the honor of only ever voting "No" on most of the truly great players of recent generations. Literally these type of voters only ever vote "Yes" for lower tier players, and they are doing this in the name of honoring top tier players. WTF? Second, the steroid situation. I understand standing on principle, but if Barry Bonds & co aren't in the Hall, then the Hall literally stops mattering. Bonds & co defined the last generation of baseball that really mattered, and the Hall is deciding not to tell that story. That makes the story of baseball's HOF something that stopped mattering about 30 years ago. Finally there's the reliance on stupid stats by baseball analysts. The idea that anyone should care about 3000 hits is silly. The idea that Harold Baines is in the Hall is just bizarre, and the idea that Rafael Palmeiro was a lock for the Hall before his steroid use was revealed is kinda comical. These guys were afterthoughts that we kids growing up following baseball did not care one bit about, but if you stick around long enough of as a mediocrity, this matters to baseball people. |
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#69 | |
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#70 | |
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https://www.flickr.com/gp/151086784@N06/28H47r Last edited by sethc1020; 03-15-2021 at 01:36 PM. |
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#71 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 6,492
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(And, yes, the biggest HOF factor for Bosh appears to be his being on championship teams (where he was #3), so that would put him in the top 50 of the HOF probability list even if it doesn't make him elite by my definition above.) |
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#72 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 918
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#73 | |
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Location: Long Beach, CA
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Regardless, once you decide your relative threshold, you can start looking at a particular decade of time to see where a guy stacks up. So if we look at guys debuting in the NBA in the 2000s like Bosh, you've got the following candidates: Gasol, Parker, Johnson Ginobili, Yao, Stoudemire LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Anthony Howard, Iguodala Paul Lowry, Aldridge Durant, Gasol, Horford, Noah Westbrook, Love, Rose Curry, Harden, Griffin That's 25 guys if I'm counting correctly. You might be able to add up a few more guys you think are more deserving than some of the less deserving guys, but I just look to drop the guys at the bottom, I'd probably drop: Johnson Stoudemire Iguodala Aldridge Horford Noah Love Rose Griffin That takes us down to 17, which is frankly possibly more selective than the actual Hall will be, and yeah, I'd say Bosh is still comfortably on that list. ftr, in my own personal ballot of guys who've accomplished the most I wouldn't bother with Yao or Melo, but I think they're clearly locks. I'll also say that some of the guys I've chopped out may have specific tracks to getting in. Stoudemire might seem significant due to his HS to pros move and place on the ultra-influential SSOL Suns. Iguodala might get in for his place on the Warriors. One or both of Horford & Noah might get in based on being the stars of the last back-to-back champion core college will likely ever see. Rose might get in because they just let all the MVPs in, even if a player was never that good and didn't do much after the fact. |
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#74 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 16,961
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I'm a "small Hall" kinda guy, so my standards are pretty rigorous. My minimum standards would be: 1) made an ALL-NBA team in at least 1/3 of seasons played 2) made first team ALL-NBA at least once 3) was in the top ten of the MVP voting in at least 1/2 of seasons played and in the top five in at least 1/3 of seasons played |
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#75 | |
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Webber's story would be helped if Michigan didnt have to vacate so much.
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