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Old 03-15-2021, 07:11 AM   #51
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He should’ve been a first ballot hall of famer. He took the backseat because he’s a good teammate when he went to Miami. Could’ve easily still been a guy putting up 25 a night during that time if he wanted to be.
He never avg. 25 PPG ever in his career.
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Old 03-15-2021, 07:46 AM   #52
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Who are these people not deserving though?

The system is pretty fair.

C. Webb and B. Wallace aren't in. C. Billups isn't in. Those guys were elite for a decade.

Webber was right there with Dirk, TD and KG as best 4 men in the League.

Literally Mitch Richmond is the only name people say shouldn't be there.

Bosh is maybe not 1st ballot. I wouldn't be surprised if it's Pierce, Billups, Wallace and Webber.

But Webber has been passed over already.
Personally I don't consider any of those players elite at all except for Wallace on the Defensive end where he absolutely was elite. Again all good players but Webber and Billups were not elite in my book.
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Old 03-15-2021, 07:55 AM   #53
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You can’t have good storytelling of basketball without the Chris Webber timeout that never existed. He should of been a lock for the HOF.
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Old 03-15-2021, 08:42 AM   #54
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He never avg. 25 PPG ever in his career.
No he was way off at 24 and 10.8 before he got the LeBron treatment.
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Old 03-15-2021, 08:44 AM   #55
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Personally I don't consider any of those players elite at all except for Wallace on the Defensive end where he absolutely was elite. Again all good players but Webber and Billups were not elite in my book.
Then you need a new book. Maybe one about basketball.

There was TD, KG, Dirk and C. Webb right there. Dude was elite.

Billups was an incredible PG that used to dominate the rest at his position. Dude was clutch.

All 3 should and will be in the HOF.
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Old 03-15-2021, 08:53 AM   #56
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You can’t have good storytelling of basketball without the Chris Webber timeout that never existed. He should of been a lock for the HOF.
I agree and my view was a little skewed because I was thinking of it more in terms of NBA HOF but there is no such thing and the Basketball HOF looks at a players entire basketball life not just NBA.
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Old 03-15-2021, 09:03 AM   #57
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Then you need a new book. Maybe one about basketball.

There was TD, KG, Dirk and C. Webb right there. Dude was elite.

Billups was an incredible PG that used to dominate the rest at his position. Dude was clutch.

All 3 should and will be in the HOF.
No, don't need a new book. I watched all of them play their entire careers and all were good players but not Elite all time players. Webber had some good years but was never a top 10 overall player. He was only inside the top 20 in points twice in his career, inside the top 10 in reb twice in his career. That doesn't sound like and Elite player to me. Good player absolutely. The thing about Billups is that the Pistons just had a good all around team and everyone played their roles very well. There was no Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, Bird, Magic, ect ect on that team. They played gritty Detroit basketball and were very good at it but no one individual stood out from the rest on that team.
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Old 03-15-2021, 09:35 AM   #58
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I agree and my view was a little skewed because I was thinking of it more in terms of NBA HOF but there is no such thing and the Basketball HOF looks at a players entire basketball life not just NBA.
I wish there was a separate NBA HOF but I doubt that ever happens.
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Old 03-15-2021, 09:54 AM   #59
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I have to disagree with a couple of things you stated. First, Bosh only shot more than 35 3-pointers in a season once (49) prior to his 10th season in the league. His 3-point percentage through his first 10 seasons was 28%. He started shooting more 3's the last 3 years of his career simply because the league had changed and stretch forwards were in demand. Aldridge and Bosh share an almost identical career 3pt percentage which is on par as all their other stats are identical.

Additionally, while the shift in roles for Bosh was a bit extreme it also made life easy for him. He had Lebron and Wade and all he simply needed to do was become Horace Grant from that point on to get his rings.

The difference between the two is Bosh has 2 rings and Aldridge has none. On the flip side, Aldridge has (2) all NBA second teams and (3) all NBA third teams in the much tougher western conference as compared to Bosh's (1) all NBA second team. This nearly eliminates that 2 ring advantage Bosh had.
Re: Bosh started shooting more 3's "because the league had changed". Yes, that happened back then, and Aldridge didn't go with the trend. That's my point. There was a point where it was obvious to all that pretty much all non-alphas needed to be shooting 3's, and Aldridge didn't adapt at that time.

Re: All he needed to do was become Horace Grant. Also a better player than Aldridge imho. I think you put way too much value in C-list alphas. If you want to win a title, you don't have Aldridge play Aldridge. He would need to adapt, and he showed a resistance to such adaptation.

Re: All-NBA teams. As I've mentioned, I don't take these things that seriously. They are opinions from people who are generally behind the times analytically, and they have a tendency to focus on rewarding alphas rather than guys whose play can lead to titles.

Re: eliminates 2 ring advantage. I'm not counting rings, and neither should anyone else imho. I'm saying that Bosh proved more to me in his ability to take on a variety of roles than Aldridge, and that Bosh showed a willingness to do so while Aldridge had a variety of ego/insecurity hand ups.

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Old 03-15-2021, 09:57 AM   #60
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No he was way off at 24 and 10.8 before he got the LeBron treatment.
So how many times did he avg 25? Double up doh
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Old 03-15-2021, 10:11 AM   #61
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Glad I was able to stir up a hornets nest

Like quite a few stated the HOF of both Basketball and Football are watered down.

I'm just of the mind you don't let past judgement errors dictate future ones.

Let's put it this way no team ever feared Bosh coming out of the eastern conference finals to threaten the Wests runs at a chip.

Now teams did fear Ben Wallace yet he still sits outside that "illustrious" group


also the person who stated Scottie and Rodman were both HOFs due to Jordan were clearly not watching in that era. Rodman was a dominant defensive presence since he came into the league well before going to the bulls and Scottie was one of the best in the league at on ball defense while also being a very capable scorer. His skill set would have carried him to his HOF career with Or WITHOUT Jordan

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Old 03-15-2021, 10:12 AM   #62
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I would not vote him in but who really has any respect for the HOF? The HOF is a joke, it doesn't mean a thing anymore.
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Old 03-15-2021, 10:13 AM   #63
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I would not vote him in but who really has any respect for the HOF? The HOF is a joke, it doesn't mean a thing anymore.
^^^^^

Has become a Hall of Very Good for quite some time now.
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Old 03-15-2021, 10:24 AM   #64
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I would not vote him in but who really has any respect for the HOF? The HOF is a joke, it doesn't mean a thing anymore.
Which NBA players, inducted in the past 10-15 years, in your opinion arent deserving?

Everyone keeps saying this without showing any work.
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Old 03-15-2021, 11:14 AM   #65
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Then you need a new book. Maybe one about basketball.

There was TD, KG, Dirk and C. Webb right there. Dude was elite.

Billups was an incredible PG that used to dominate the rest at his position. Dude was clutch.

All 3 should and will be in the HOF.
I gotta say: Webber was perceived briefly to be up there with those other players, but he shouldn't have been.

You're talking about a guy who was seen as a bit of a disappointment until he showed up in Sacramento, but when Sacramento became such a huge success with Webber in the big stat role, he started getting talked about as a top tier superstar.

But the Kings were good with and without Webber. Webber's volume scoring wasn't very efficient even back then, and today you wouldn't consider using someone like that as your alpha. Moreover the key to those Kings' success was the inside-out passing to 3-point shooters, and while Webber was a capable passer, Vlade Divac was huge in this capacity as well.

Beyond all that there's the matter that guys like Duncan & KG were DPOY level defenders and Webber was nothing close to that, while Dirk was a drastically more dangerous scoring threat.

Webber's rise in stature with the success of the Kings may well be enough, in conjunction with his place on the Fab 5, for Webber to get in the Hall, but there's little doubt that he got overrated in Sacramento on the assumption that he was "the star" and everyone else around him was far less than him. The Kings' success was much more about team work as opposed to individual brilliance.
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Old 03-15-2021, 11:20 AM   #66
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No, don't need a new book. I watched all of them play their entire careers and all were good players but not Elite all time players. Webber had some good years but was never a top 10 overall player. He was only inside the top 20 in points twice in his career, inside the top 10 in reb twice in his career. That doesn't sound like and Elite player to me. Good player absolutely. The thing about Billups is that the Pistons just had a good all around team and everyone played their roles very well. There was no Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, Bird, Magic, ect ect on that team. They played gritty Detroit basketball and were very good at it but no one individual stood out from the rest on that team.
We definitely agree on something things but I'll say this:

1. I think we all agree that Billups was not a top tier superstar like the Jordans and Magics of the world.

2. But as the Pistons evolved, Billups became the clear cut offensive star of the team. This wasn't the case when they won the title in '03-04, but Billups got better after that. He proved to be the keystone holding the Pistons up in later year, then there was the swap with AI where basically he looked like a better player than AI, who is of course a lock for the Hall.
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Old 03-15-2021, 11:26 AM   #67
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I would not vote him in but who really has any respect for the HOF? The HOF is a joke, it doesn't mean a thing anymore.
Basketball fans say this a lot, and I gotta say the whole "it doesn't mean a thing anymore" is just weird to me given the age most people have to be. KC Jones got in the Hall in the '80s. Were you complaining then?

If you're not old enough to have been an adult back then, then the HOF has basically been like this the entire time you've been around.
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Old 03-15-2021, 11:35 AM   #68
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Glad I was able to stir up a hornets nest

Like quite a few stated the HOF of both Basketball and Football are watered down.

I'm just of the mind you don't let past judgement errors dictate future ones.

Let's put it this way no team ever feared Bosh coming out of the eastern conference finals to threaten the Wests runs at a chip.

Now teams did fear Ben Wallace yet he still sits outside that "illustrious" group


also the person who stated Scottie and Rodman were both HOFs due to Jordan were clearly not watching in that era. Rodman was a dominant defensive presence since he came into the league well before going to the bulls and Scottie was one of the best in the league at on ball defense while also being a very capable scorer. His skill set would have carried him to his HOF career with Or WITHOUT Jordan

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I believe you're talking about me, and if so, you should read what I said more carefully.

One thing Re: Basketball & Football watered down. While there are certainly guys getting in the Hall I wouldn't put in, when you put it this way there's an elephant in the room:

You're implying that the Baseball HOF is the one with the most cred. And I'd say the Baseball HOF is the biggest joke there is.

First, the notion of a "first ballot HOFer" comes from baseball and its ridiculous. You literally have voters who think it's their duty to vote "No" the first time through to basically everybody, which means that these voters have the honor of only ever voting "No" on most of the truly great players of recent generations. Literally these type of voters only ever vote "Yes" for lower tier players, and they are doing this in the name of honoring top tier players. WTF?

Second, the steroid situation. I understand standing on principle, but if Barry Bonds & co aren't in the Hall, then the Hall literally stops mattering. Bonds & co defined the last generation of baseball that really mattered, and the Hall is deciding not to tell that story. That makes the story of baseball's HOF something that stopped mattering about 30 years ago.

Finally there's the reliance on stupid stats by baseball analysts. The idea that anyone should care about 3000 hits is silly. The idea that Harold Baines is in the Hall is just bizarre, and the idea that Rafael Palmeiro was a lock for the Hall before his steroid use was revealed is kinda comical. These guys were afterthoughts that we kids growing up following baseball did not care one bit about, but if you stick around long enough of as a mediocrity, this matters to baseball people.
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Old 03-15-2021, 12:04 PM   #69
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I believe you're talking about me, and if so, you should read what I said more carefully.



One thing Re: Basketball & Football watered down. While there are certainly guys getting in the Hall I wouldn't put in, when you put it this way there's an elephant in the room:



You're implying that the Baseball HOF is the one with the most cred. And I'd say the Baseball HOF is the biggest joke there is.



First, the notion of a "first ballot HOFer" comes from baseball and its ridiculous. You literally have voters who think it's their duty to vote "No" the first time through to basically everybody, which means that these voters have the honor of only ever voting "No" on most of the truly great players of recent generations. Literally these type of voters only ever vote "Yes" for lower tier players, and they are doing this in the name of honoring top tier players. WTF?



Second, the steroid situation. I understand standing on principle, but if Barry Bonds & co aren't in the Hall, then the Hall literally stops mattering. Bonds & co defined the last generation of baseball that really mattered, and the Hall is deciding not to tell that story. That makes the story of baseball's HOF something that stopped mattering about 30 years ago.



Finally there's the reliance on stupid stats by baseball analysts. The idea that anyone should care about 3000 hits is silly. The idea that Harold Baines is in the Hall is just bizarre, and the idea that Rafael Palmeiro was a lock for the Hall before his steroid use was revealed is kinda comical. These guys were afterthoughts that we kids growing up following baseball did not care one bit about, but if you stick around long enough of as a mediocrity, this matters to baseball people.
Lol no the entirety of baseball is a joke

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Old 03-15-2021, 01:33 PM   #70
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We definitely agree on something things but I'll say this:

1. I think we all agree that Billups was not a top tier superstar like the Jordans and Magics of the world.

2. But as the Pistons evolved, Billups became the clear cut offensive star of the team. This wasn't the case when they won the title in '03-04, but Billups got better after that. He proved to be the keystone holding the Pistons up in later year, then there was the swap with AI where basically he looked like a better player than AI, who is of course a lock for the Hall.
By no means am I saying that Billups wasn't a good/great player he absolutely was but I don't think he was an Elite level player. That's my entire argument going back to Bosh and some of the others mentioned, they were all good/great players but none of them were Elite level players for their careers. Maybe an elite year or 2 but to me that doesn't equal HOF status.
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Old 03-15-2021, 03:06 PM   #71
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By no means am I saying that Billups wasn't a good/great player he absolutely was but I don't think he was an Elite level player. That's my entire argument going back to Bosh and some of the others mentioned, they were all good/great players but none of them were Elite level players for their careers. Maybe an elite year or 2 but to me that doesn't equal HOF status.
IMO "elite" means roughly top 10 in the league (or 1st or 2nd All-NBA Team) for more than a year. I don't know how many elite players in the league history that means, but maybe no more than about 50?

(And, yes, the biggest HOF factor for Bosh appears to be his being on championship teams (where he was #3), so that would put him in the top 50 of the HOF probability list even if it doesn't make him elite by my definition above.)
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Old 03-15-2021, 03:24 PM   #72
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By no means am I saying that Billups wasn't a good/great player he absolutely was but I don't think he was an Elite level player. That's my entire argument going back to Bosh and some of the others mentioned, they were all good/great players but none of them were Elite level players for their careers. Maybe an elite year or 2 but to me that doesn't equal HOF status.
Okay, just keep in mind that your notion of HOF status probably doesn't really have any relationship with what the basketball HOF has ever been.
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Old 03-15-2021, 03:37 PM   #73
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IMO "elite" means roughly top 10 in the league (or 1st or 2nd All-NBA Team) for more than a year. I don't know how many elite players in the league history that means, but maybe no more than about 50?

(And, yes, the biggest HOF factor for Bosh appears to be his being on championship teams (where he was #3), so that would put him in the top 50 of the HOF probability list even if it doesn't make him elite by my definition above.)
So for the record, I'd say the basketball HOF has been inducting players at a pace that is a bit under 2 players per draft class or 20 players per decade. I've been involved in projects where we try to trim that down to 10 per decade, which leads to something that still feels pretty reasonable, but if you try to do less than that it starts seeming too selective.

Regardless, once you decide your relative threshold, you can start looking at a particular decade of time to see where a guy stacks up.

So if we look at guys debuting in the NBA in the 2000s like Bosh, you've got the following candidates:

Gasol, Parker, Johnson
Ginobili, Yao, Stoudemire
LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Anthony
Howard, Iguodala
Paul
Lowry, Aldridge
Durant, Gasol, Horford, Noah
Westbrook, Love, Rose
Curry, Harden, Griffin

That's 25 guys if I'm counting correctly. You might be able to add up a few more guys you think are more deserving than some of the less deserving guys, but I just look to drop the guys at the bottom, I'd probably drop:

Johnson
Stoudemire
Iguodala
Aldridge
Horford
Noah
Love
Rose
Griffin

That takes us down to 17, which is frankly possibly more selective than the actual Hall will be, and yeah, I'd say Bosh is still comfortably on that list.

ftr, in my own personal ballot of guys who've accomplished the most I wouldn't bother with Yao or Melo, but I think they're clearly locks.

I'll also say that some of the guys I've chopped out may have specific tracks to getting in.

Stoudemire might seem significant due to his HS to pros move and place on the ultra-influential SSOL Suns.

Iguodala might get in for his place on the Warriors.

One or both of Horford & Noah might get in based on being the stars of the last back-to-back champion core college will likely ever see.

Rose might get in because they just let all the MVPs in, even if a player was never that good and didn't do much after the fact.
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Old 03-15-2021, 03:55 PM   #74
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Which NBA players, inducted in the past 10-15 years, in your opinion arent deserving?

Everyone keeps saying this without showing any work.
I think that part of the problem is that there are not any defined standards for what a Hall of Famer should be. So everyone projects there own values/opinions into the debate.

I'm a "small Hall" kinda guy, so my standards are pretty rigorous.

My minimum standards would be:

1) made an ALL-NBA team in at least 1/3 of seasons played
2) made first team ALL-NBA at least once
3) was in the top ten of the MVP voting in at least 1/2 of seasons played and in the top five in at least 1/3 of seasons played
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Old 03-15-2021, 03:57 PM   #75
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I agree and my view was a little skewed because I was thinking of it more in terms of NBA HOF but there is no such thing and the Basketball HOF looks at a players entire basketball life not just NBA.
And that entire career including Olympics and his one year at GT help Bosh.

Webber's story would be helped if Michigan didnt have to vacate so much.
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