The official James Wiseman thread

[smalltown]

Originally Posted by tjforce

I've seen this before, over and over again with prospect. A lot of people can only see black and white. Two scenarios:
-Guy pans out to be a bust
-Guy ends up a superstar.

Not realizing that if a guy does end up playing well, he still ends up closer to the Jarrett Allen/ Bam Adebayo level of All-Star player but hobby irrelevant

And you take a guy like Wiseman, who is on nobody's top 50 list, on nobody's best under 25 list... He could basketball work out, and long term the hobby just wouldn't care. But the bigger thing is what skillset does he have that could make him elite? Maybe I just don't see it, and I'll come back and tell you if I'm proven wrong.

100%. There are lots of really good players who get zero love. Hobby or otherwise. And lots of really average players who get a ton.

[TawkCards]

Wiseman looking really good out there!

[Mahomie]

Was gonna pickup a Prizm silver, but decided on a Flux encased holo instead:

[Ericc5Bears]

Absolutely unplayable, probably the single worst player getting significant minutes in the entire league right now



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[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by Ericc5Bears

Absolutely unplayable, probably the single worst player getting significant minutes in the entire league right now



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I saw this on twitter. Poole and Kuminga's net ratings are also quite bad.

[jcardstore]

I just love when BO hypes dudes when they clearly never watched them play. If you saw any of Wiseman in the preseason this year you would have seen just how bad this dude is.

He's huge and slow, can't move his feet or hips, somehow can't grab rebounds even though he's 7'2 or whatever. Completely unplayable on the Warriors.

"but he's only X years old" "he's got a sweet jumper" "he can hit an occasional 3"

[daeve]

He's a 21yo legit 7-footer with 43 games under his belt and playing in one of if not the most intricate motion offense in the history of the league. You can't write him off as "bad" just yet.... or you can [but it seems unwise].

[jcardstore]

We'll bump this one in 2 years just like all the others. The list of bad lottery picks hyped by BO because "they're young" is really really long.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by daeve

He's a 21yo legit 7-footer with 43 games under his belt and playing in one of if not the most intricate motion offense in the history of the league. You can't write him off as "bad" just yet.... or you can [but it seems unwise].

You're right. He could become a good player in the future.

And do you know what other highly drafted 7 footer was a good player? Andrew Bogut.

And therein lies the problem. You could be a perfectly good NBA player and still a total bust in the hobby. I will not be shocked at all if eventually Kerr turns Wiseman into a player who helps them win, but I will be pretty surprised if Wiseman produces enough to ever become a hobby star.

[KhalDrogo]

Guy has played fewer than 50 games since he finished high school in spring 2019. He's been injured during a good chunk of that time. He's so far behind developmentally that it will take him years of regular play to dig out of the hole. He's got absolutely no future as a hobby relevant player. Yet his NT RPA is $2500. Baffling.

[amg2002]

I have watched every game so far this season and can honestly say I am impressed watching Wiseman. I know the stats do not show that. What I think is going on is he has been given a role that the coaches are not good at coaching. It seems as if he is "miscast" with the Warriors, at least right now.

I see the same with Kuminga...it's like the staff isn't quite sure how to use him yet.

I do not agree that he looks slow...he runs with very long strides and gets down the floor well on the break. Wiseman has all of the tools to be a superstar IMO, however, I am not sure this is the team that it happens with.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by tjforce

You're right. He could become a good player in the future.

And do you know what other highly drafted 7 footer was a good player? Andrew Bogut.

And therein lies the problem. You could be a perfectly good NBA player and still a total bust in the hobby. I will not be shocked at all if eventually Kerr turns Wiseman into a player who helps them win, but I will be pretty surprised if Wiseman produces enough to ever become a hobby star.

Sure, but that is a totally different argument that I wasn't commenting on - but since you brought it up, these are very different profiles, aside from both being 7 feet tall. Bogut didn't even average double digit points over his career.

Look up their scouting reports:

Bogut is one of the most fundamentally sound players you'll find in all of college basketball. He possesses extremely solid footwork in the post, on both offense and defense. He is smart, strong, very coordinated, aggressive and not soft in the least bit when he's posting up his man in the paint

Wiseman has physical tools that really stand out on the court, standing 7 feet with a long (7-foot-6 wingspan) and rangy frame … Considering his elite size, it is very intriguing that he brings nimble feet, agility, solid leaping ability and long strides making him an extremely promising big man on both ends of the floor

Nobody was calling Wiseman "fundamentally sound" and going to a contender with an intricate offense meant it was going to be a process. Bogut and Wiseman really have very little in common aside from being 7 feet tall.

Bogut : smart, fundamentals, strong, post footwork
Wiseman: rangy, physical tools, agility, leaping ability

[Dame]

Originally Posted by daeve

He's a 21yo legit 7-footer with 43 games under his belt and playing in one of if not the most intricate motion offense in the history of the league. You can't write him off as "bad" just yet.... or you can [but it seems unwise].

I still like my comp on page 2- there's parallels of a DeAndre Jordan type of career but unlike DJ there's still time to develop a 3 ball, something that was never encouraged for traditional 5's back then.


Big men drafted #2 historically in the last 2 decades were mostly disappointments but if he can be a 15ppg (65%FG) 12rpg and 3 BPG kind of guy. That would be a tremendous value/win for the Warriors, IMHO.

[jcardstore]

The simple reality is that superstar or even star level talent is blatantly obvious. Usually immediately but definitely within 2 years.

The only real outliers are Giannis or Kawhi but those guys were making massive leaps in their game each season.

He's legit 7ft... who cares??? There are like 20 of them in the NBA right now. Being 7ft tall doesn't mean anything. Cauley Stein was 7ft tall too, so what.

Wiseman can't create his own offense (something that every single superstar in NBA history has been able to do at an elite level). He us unplayable defensively outside of the paint.

He's a guy who can give you some easy bucket as a rim runner and block a couple shots. That's it.

Not every guy has superstar talent, and that's ok. If he can fill a certain role he can be an ok player.

[Nomad]

Yes but he has the best in the business to tutor him. To me superficially he seems a bit like Jalen Smith, who is just starting to test his limits. But really, like Smith or my man Nesmith, he may just need to join the Pacers and get an offense built with him in mind.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

The simple reality is that superstar or even star level talent is blatantly obvious. Usually immediately but definitely within 2 years.

The only real outliers are Giannis or Kawhi but those guys were making massive leaps in their game each season.

He's legit 7ft... who cares??? There are like 20 of them in the NBA right now. Being 7ft tall doesn't mean anything. Cauley Stein was 7ft tall too, so what.

Wiseman can't create his own offense (something that every single superstar in NBA history has been able to do at an elite level). He us unplayable defensively outside of the paint.

He's a guy who can give you some easy bucket as a rim runner and block a couple shots. That's it.

Not every guy has superstar talent, and that's ok. If he can fill a certain role he can be an ok player.

The last half-decade of MVPs is Harden, Giannis x2, Jokic x2.

by year 2 Harden was a bench player averaging 12.2, Giannis 12.7... Jokic 16.7, but began year 2 on the bench as he knew Nurkic and he wouldn't work together starting. [Nurk was traded that year].

None were an All-Star at that point... they were all All-Rookies, so that's one thing they have over Wiseman, who got hurt his rookie year. I don't remember if Harden was pricey, but I don't think he was in year 3. Giannis and Jokic were cheap.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by daeve

The last half-decade of MVPs is Harden, Giannis x2, Jokic x2.

by year 2 Harden was a bench player averaging 12.2, Giannis 12.7... Jokic 16.7, but began year 2 on the bench as he knew Nurkic and he wouldn't work together starting. [Nurk was traded that year].

None were an All-Star at that point... they were all All-Rookies, so that's one thing they have over Wiseman, who got hurt his rookie year. I don't remember if Harden was pricey, but I don't think he was in year 3. Giannis and Jokic were cheap.

I expect more from you than just parroting pointless PPG numbers

Harden is an awful example because he had great on/off splits and absolutely elite non-box and per100 stats just got no usage in OKC.

Jokic even more obvious in retrospect if you go look at the same stuff. I mean his splits and non-box stuff was insane from day 1 just didn't get the usage.

but again, these guys besides Giannis all showed shot creation ability pretty much from day one.

Wiseman has shown you absolutely no upside.

edit: even Giannis had solidly positive non-box impact from day 1

[jcardstore]

Wiseman has made both their defense and offense worse when on the court for all of the games he's played.

[yiguiri2002]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

I expect more from you than just parroting pointless PPG numbers

Harden is an awful example because he had great on/off splits and absolutely elite non-box and per100 stats just got no usage in OKC.

Jokic even more obvious in retrospect if you go look at the same stuff. I mean his splits and non-box stuff was insane from day 1 just didn't get the usage.

but again, these guys besides Giannis all showed shot creation ability pretty much from day one.

Wiseman has shown you absolutely no upside.

edit: even Giannis had solidly positive non-box impact from day 1

Unless it's leaked that Wiseman started playing basketball at 15 or something, there shouldn't be any comparisons between 2nd year Giannis and him. None.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

I expect more from you than just parroting pointless PPG numbers

Harden is an awful example because he had great on/off splits and absolutely elite non-box and per100 stats just got no usage in OKC.

Jokic even more obvious in retrospect if you go look at the same stuff. I mean his splits and non-box stuff was insane from day 1 just didn't get the usage.

but again, these guys besides Giannis all showed shot creation ability pretty much from day one.

Wiseman has shown you absolutely no upside.

edit: even Giannis had solidly positive non-box impact from day 1

And you're somehow missing the context that Wiseman is on an all-time dynasty with mostly dudes who've been running in this system for many years, and it's built on motion for the shooters. It's like grafting a new arm onto the 6-million-dollar man. There is no way a 21yo big would catch on quickly into this system.

And it's a lot easier to have better +/- on a bad team, which is what most high draft picks are getting into. I would expect Wiseman to have poor +/-.

The upside I see in Wiseman is that he looks like he has so much more. Half the time I'm watching him role to the rim, he's under-jumping or underestimating how long he is. He looks like he still doesn't really know his own dimensions yet, or how he fits onto a basketball court. It's almost similar to Giannis - in that sense at least. He's of course nowhere near as quick, but since he's playing the 5, and not 3-4, he doesn't need to be. He's very agile for his size, and I think that along with his length and strides gives him upside.

Again, 43 games on a well-oiled machine that's never made room for a consistent/good offensive player at the 5. He deserves some of the benefit of the doubt. This is a very good drafting/scouting FO too, they deserve some credit too.

[KhalDrogo]

Safe to say Kerr has no faith in this guy if he could only get 16 minutes tonight.

[ninjacookies]

Low bbIQ. Good athletic potential. Rich man's Nic Claxton.

Different players but kind of reminds me of Bol Bol in terms of situation. Both on win-now squads with short leashes on player development.

He'd be best suited being traded to a team like Bol with Orlando. I could see a team like Utah making a run at him.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Low bbIQ. Good athletic potential. Rich man's Nic Claxton.

Different players but kind of reminds me of Bol Bol in terms of situation. Both on win-now squads with short leashes on player development.

He'd be best suited being traded to a team like Bol with Orlando. I could see a team like Utah making a run at him.

He gets upset with himself when he screws up and in his own head too much. I think he's too aware that Steph/Dray/Klay's time is nearly up and trying to learn on the job while the pressure to win is high, well just ain't helping him. I mentioned the Bol-thriving-in-Orl comp on reddit earlier today. I think he does need a younger core and a lower pressure environment.

If Myles T really does want out, well Wiseman and Kuminga works for him on the trademachine. He'd be a tremendous fit on GS too.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by daeve

He gets upset with himself when he screws up and in his own head too much. I think he's too aware that Steph/Dray/Klay's time is nearly up and trying to learn on the job while the pressure to win is high, well just ain't helping him. I mentioned the Bol-thriving-in-Orl comp on reddit earlier today. I think he does need a younger core and a lower pressure environment.

If Myles T really does want out, well Wiseman and Kuminga works for him on the trademachine. He'd be a tremendous fit on GS too.

That's an interesting trade proposition. Yeah, post-injury Wiseman was out to silence the critics but he's just not the right fit in their system. The added pressure of being raw and thrusted into a championship atmosphere is crushing him.

I don't think I ever see him being great, but could be a nice contributing piece on a young squad.

[Spacemanspif]

Originally Posted by daeve

He gets upset with himself when he screws up and in his own head too much. I think he's too aware that Steph/Dray/Klay's time is nearly up and trying to learn on the job while the pressure to win is high, well just ain't helping him. I mentioned the Bol-thriving-in-Orl comp on reddit earlier today. I think he does need a younger core and a lower pressure environment.

If Myles T really does want out, well Wiseman and Kuminga works for him on the trademachine. He'd be a tremendous fit on GS too.

I think the idea of Turner is so much greater than what he is as an actual player. Sure on paper he embodies rim protection and floor spacing, which is what everyone wants. But he's not actually very good at either, so I wouldn't pay a premium for him.

As a fan of both teams, I would rather do a Wiseman for Dort swap. Maybe it's the championship hangover, but Wiggins has been pretty whatevs this year, and Klay obviously is no longer a wing stopper. Dort would give them some physicality and defense on the perimeter, for basically nothing (I assume Wiseman has no trade value to most teams). Wiseman gets to be in a low-pressure environment, and they get a legit threat in the PnR with Shai or Giddey. No real downside since JRE is a below-replacement level center, and JDub should be playing over Dort eventually anyway.