Clayton Kershaw - Will a dominant postseason do much to his hobby value? - Page 3

jjj5278 · 10-03-2020, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djdevon

Give it time Doyyer fans. Curse-Shaw will self-destruct. He's like Chuck Knoblauch fielding a grounder at the hot corner. All he has to do is throw it to first, but...AAAHAHARRRURHGHGH

Ha, so clever. But Knoblauch played second base, not third.

PejaD · 10-03-2020, 01:10 PM

It’s the perfect setting for Kershaw to have a fairytale 2020 postseason run and overcome his previous playoff demons. The Dodgers would play all their remaining games in Kershaw’s hometown, and 2020 has been a big down year for hitting. 2020 for Kershaw could be what 2017 was for Verlander.

kidfan9 · 10-03-2020, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PejaD

It’s the perfect setting for Kershaw to have a fairytale 2020 postseason run and overcome his previous playoff demons. The Dodgers would play all their remaining games in Kershaw’s hometown, and 2020 has been a big down year for hitting. 2020 for Kershaw could be what 2017 was for Verlander.

Also, no road crowds to rattle him.

bwalter1 · 10-03-2020, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Tom Seaver was better than all of those guys.

Through same age the stats are similar between them. 3 Cys, Kersh has the MVP though. Kersh has more SO per 9 but Seaver had more IP and alot more complete games. Baseball has just changed over the years where you don't have to throw all 9 innings. I would not say Seaver was better because Kershaw still has years left in his arm and we can't compare final stats yet.

badkarma318 · 10-03-2020, 03:38 PM

Even if the doyers manage to win the World Series, and he is a postseason asset rather than a liability, in the hearts and minds of most baseball fans (other than doyer fans, of course) it will forever be tainted / * due to the ridiculously short season, lack of a true spring training, key opposing players injured most likely due to the very same short season/lack of spring training (thus weakening the opposition, easing their path to the title), and so on.

rman112 · 10-03-2020, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badkarma318

Even if the doyers manage to win the World Series, and he is a postseason asset rather than a liability, in the hearts and minds of most baseball fans (other than doyer fans, of course) it will forever be tainted / * due to the ridiculously short season, lack of a true spring training, key opposing players injured most likely due to the very same short season/lack of spring training (thus weakening the opposition, easing their path to the title), and so on.

That's some bad karma.

Vegas Cards · 10-03-2020, 03:58 PM

FWIW I bought my Kershaw Topps UH240 PSA 10 December 2018 for $160.

Recent ebay sales were for $575 or so. Not a bad move for less than 24 months.

I should have bought a couple more!

mattsey9 · 10-03-2020, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Tom Seaver was better than all of those guys.

I spent some time last offseason watching some old Seaver games. He was absolutely outstanding.

mattsey9 · 10-03-2020, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwalter1

Through same age the stats are similar between them. 3 Cys, Kersh has the MVP though. Kersh has more SO per 9 but Seaver had more IP and alot more complete games. Baseball has just changed over the years where you don't have to throw all 9 innings. I would not say Seaver was better because Kershaw still has years left in his arm and we can't compare final stats yet.

This is why it can be so difficult to compare pitchers between eras. As you note, Seaver was expected to go 9 every night, pitch count be damned. Gibson wrote in his book that he held back his hard stuff until he really needed it so that he wouldn't run out of steam. Today's pitchers don't have that responsibility. If they pitch into the 7th it's a big deal.

Are todays pitchers faster and stronger? Without doubt. But they're playing a completely different game than what existed 50 years ago, as you note. Kershaw may match or surpass Seaver, Gibson, or Ryan on rate, but never on volume.

49ersSF · 10-03-2020, 08:09 PM

He gets a ring and plays well then his stock most certainly will rise.

bwalter1 · 10-04-2020, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattsey9

This is why it can be so difficult to compare pitchers between eras. As you note, Seaver was expected to go 9 every night, pitch count be damned. Gibson wrote in his book that he held back his hard stuff until he really needed it so that he wouldn't run out of steam. Today's pitchers don't have that responsibility. If they pitch into the 7th it's a big deal.

Are todays pitchers faster and stronger? Without doubt. But they're playing a completely different game than what existed 50 years ago, as you note. Kershaw may match or surpass Seaver, Gibson, or Ryan on rate, but never on volume.

Yeah Kersh won't be throwing the same amount of innings and I think he might be the last guy to have 300 wins if anybody does again. As far as ERA and KS he can be close to two (nobody is touching Ryan's Ks). It all depends on how he finishes off his career.

jhssketchcards · 10-05-2020, 06:31 AM

See also:
Peyton Manning 2007
John Elway 1997
LeBron James 2012

Certainly helped them

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

cardsin47 · 10-05-2020, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nostalgia

You can get Kershaw cards relatively cheap...

Proof that it’s not “just” all about the Stats, when you’re dealing with Hobby popularity and demand ($). Kershaw reminds me of Pujols —- statistically one of the best ever, but not reflected in the cardboard world. Both lack “the magic” that collectors and investors are looking for ...

PS - as of today. Tomorrow - who knows?

texmcpherson · 10-05-2020, 08:49 AM

Kershaw was one of my biggest steals I've ever gotten on eBay...

2008 Topps Gold RC /2008 BGS 9 for $50 last December.

Nostalgia · 10-05-2020, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardsin47

Proof that it’s not “just” all about the Stats, when you’re dealing with Hobby popularity and demand ($). Kershaw reminds me of Pujols —- statistically one of the best ever, but not reflected in the cardboard world. Both lack “the magic” that collectors and investors are looking for ...

PS - as of today. Tomorrow - who knows?

Why are Pujols rookies undervalued? High print? Pretty terrible 2nd half to his career?
I mean his career numbers look great, but his last 7/8 years have been very poor (besides some homeruns). His average has now dipped UNDER .300!! It was .332 through his first 10 seasons. Last 10 seasons = .258
He had 408 homeruns through his first 10 seasons. I thought he was a lock for 715. He has 254 in his last 10.
Yes, most of the decline likely has to do with age. But does steroids play any role in the minds of collectors?

Nostalgia · 10-05-2020, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texmcpherson

Kershaw was one of my biggest steals I've ever gotten on eBay...

2008 Topps Gold RC /2008 BGS 9 for $50 last December.

Ill buy it for 200 right now

DrewTheMan · 10-05-2020, 06:03 PM

I love lists.

Top pitchers in the last 50 years (1970-2020)

1 - Greg Maddux
2 - Randy Johnson
3 - Roger Clemens
4 - Pedro Martinez (best stuff I've seen but shorter career hurts)
5 - Steve Carlton
6 - Clayton Kershaw
7 - Jim Palmer
8 - Tom Glavine
9 - Justin Verlander
10 - Max Shcerzer

I think if you put Kershaw in the 90's in the AL East, you wouldn't see such dominant numbers. Just my thoughts.

Nostalgia · 10-05-2020, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrewTheMan

I love lists.

Top pitchers in the last 50 years (1970-2020)

1 - Greg Maddux
2 - Randy Johnson
3 - Roger Clemens
4 - Pedro Martinez (best stuff I've seen but shorter career hurts)
5 - Steve Carlton
6 - Clayton Kershaw
7 - Jim Palmer
8 - Tom Glavine
9 - Justin Verlander
10 - Max Shcerzer

I think if you put Kershaw in the 90's in the AL East, you wouldn't see such dominant numbers. Just my thoughts.

Glavine never amazed me.

I have Halladay on the list over him.

DrewTheMan · 10-05-2020, 07:38 PM

You're right about Halladay, he was a beast. Glavine was a very good pitcher for a long period of time. He won 20 games over 5 times.

rats60 · 10-05-2020, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrewTheMan

I love lists.

Top pitchers in the last 50 years (1970-2020)

1 - Greg Maddux
2 - Randy Johnson
3 - Roger Clemens
4 - Pedro Martinez (best stuff I've seen but shorter career hurts)
5 - Steve Carlton
6 - Clayton Kershaw
7 - Jim Palmer
8 - Tom Glavine
9 - Justin Verlander
10 - Max Shcerzer

I think if you put Kershaw in the 90's in the AL East, you wouldn't see such dominant numbers. Just my thoughts.

Tom Seaver is better than all those guys. 109.9 WAR 2.86 ERA, 3.04 FIP, 1.121 WHIP, 311 Wins . 604 winning percentage 4783 IP, 231 CG, 61 SHO, 3640 Ks, 3 Cy Youngs with 8 top 5 finishes.

Nostalgia · 10-05-2020, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Tom Seaver is better than all those guys. 109.9 WAR 2.86 ERA, 3.04 FIP, 1.121 WHIP, 311 Wins . 604 winning percentage 4783 IP, 231 CG, 61 SHO, 3640 Ks, 3 Cy Youngs with 8 top 5 finishes.

I didn't even realize Seaver was omitted from this list.
I'd put Ryan over Palmer too.

Not sure Seaver was better than all of them. But he is definitely top 5.

For this list...I would change it to 90-2020....last 30 years.

Top 10 in No particular order:
Kershaw
Pedro
Maddux
Johnson
Verlander
Scherzer
Halladay
Santana
Felix
Clemens

Next 10 in No particular order:
Degrom
Mussina
Schilling
Bumgarner
Sabathia
Lincecum
Glavine
Smoltz
Greinke
Oswalt

regularp · 10-06-2020, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBases31

Care to share who was better since 1970? Guess who is #1 in ERA in the last 50 years among pitchers with at least 2000 innings? Kershaw, by alot. He's in 1st at 2.43, 2nd at 2.82 and only two others under 3.00. FIP? #1 in that too.

Dominance in his era? That's Kershaw again too. 1st in ERA- at 63(this is a measure of ERA vs your competition at the time)

His postseason ERA is almost two full runs higher than his regular season ERA. It doesn't matter how you or anyone else tries to spin that. The stigma associated with that will never leave until he has a dominant run. He doesn't have any signature moments in the playoffs or series where he put the team on his back, especially in elimination games.

Nostalgia · 10-06-2020, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regularp

His postseason ERA is almost two full runs higher than his regular season ERA. It doesn't matter how you or anyone else tries to spin that. The stigma associated with that will never leave until he has a dominant run. He doesn't have any signature moments in the playoffs or series where he put the team on his back, especially in elimination games.

Looking forward to tomorrow's game.

duwal · 10-07-2020, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nostalgia

Looking forward to tomorrow's game.

Well pretty much same ol Kershaw.....

Nostalgia · 10-07-2020, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duwal

Well pretty much same ol Kershaw.....

Looked good until the last inning.
Now he just needs the Dodgers to hold his win.
Not a great start. Needs the win.

10-03-2020, 08:09 PM	#60
49ersSF Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: San Francisco Posts: 4,114	He gets a ring and plays well then his stock most certainly will rise. __________________ They see what they have been told to see.

10-05-2020, 08:49 AM	#64
texmcpherson Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 15,950 texmcpherson	Kershaw was one of my biggest steals I've ever gotten on eBay... 2008 Topps Gold RC /2008 BGS 9 for $50 last December. __________________ *You can’t triple stamp a double stamp.*

10-03-2020, 01:10 PM	#52
PejaD Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 4,071	It’s the perfect setting for Kershaw to have a fairytale 2020 postseason run and overcome his previous playoff demons. The Dodgers would play all their remaining games in Kershaw’s hometown, and 2020 has been a big down year for hitting. 2020 for Kershaw could be what 2017 was for Verlander.

10-03-2020, 03:38 PM	#55
badkarma318 Member Join Date: Sep 2020 Posts: 680	Even if the doyers manage to win the World Series, and he is a postseason asset rather than a liability, in the hearts and minds of most baseball fans (other than doyer fans, of course) it will forever be tainted / * due to the ridiculously short season, lack of a true spring training, key opposing players injured most likely due to the very same short season/lack of spring training (thus weakening the opposition, easing their path to the title), and so on.

10-03-2020, 03:58 PM	#57
Vegas Cards Member Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Los Angeles, Ca Posts: 147 CSRT8	FWIW I bought my Kershaw Topps UH240 PSA 10 December 2018 for $160. Recent ebay sales were for $575 or so. Not a bad move for less than 24 months. I should have bought a couple more!

10-05-2020, 06:31 AM	#62
jhssketchcards Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 11,419 jhssketchcards2012	See also: Peyton Manning 2007 John Elway 1997 LeBron James 2012 Certainly helped them Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

10-05-2020, 06:03 PM	#67
DrewTheMan Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Lowell, Mass Posts: 228	I love lists. Top pitchers in the last 50 years (1970-2020) 1 - Greg Maddux 2 - Randy Johnson 3 - Roger Clemens 4 - Pedro Martinez (best stuff I've seen but shorter career hurts) 5 - Steve Carlton 6 - Clayton Kershaw 7 - Jim Palmer 8 - Tom Glavine 9 - Justin Verlander 10 - Max Shcerzer I think if you put Kershaw in the 90's in the AL East, you wouldn't see such dominant numbers. Just my thoughts.

10-05-2020, 07:38 PM	#69
DrewTheMan Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Lowell, Mass Posts: 228	You're right about Halladay, he was a beast. Glavine was a very good pitcher for a long period of time. He won 20 games over 5 times.