Issue with PSA

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

The most popular PSA group sub here now has to break down by DV <$199, <$499, and <$1999. How often am I going to get upcharged when my $100 raw card becomes a $200+ PSA 10, and they provide the service at the slower turnaround? I’m not okay with that.

They are not doing this for every card; they don't have enough time in the day. Heck $1,000 PSA 10 POP 1s from the 70s were submitted last year and there was no upcharge, because the raw card was worth about $20 and it was an outlier. There is a difference in this happening randomly and PSA actively detecting that they are being taken advantage of.

Kind of like the IRS, Nats's submissions are now being audited because of previous questionable value assessments.

[gopherfan]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

They are not doing this for every card; they don't have enough time in the day. Heck $1,000 PSA 10 POP 1s from the 70s were submitted last year and there was no upcharge, because the raw card was worth about $20 and it was an outlier. There is a difference in this happening randomly and PSA actively detecting that they are being taken advantage of.

Kind of like the IRS, Nats's submissions are now being audited because of previous questionable value assessments.

While I believe that only using the $19,000 comp, to base the value of this card is erroneous, the IRS example above is maybe the best analogy I have seen.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

They are not doing this for every card; they don't have enough time in the day. Heck $1,000 PSA 10 POP 1s from the 70s were submitted last year and there was no upcharge, because the raw card was worth about $20 and it was an outlier. There is a difference in this happening randomly and PSA actively detecting that they are being taken advantage of.

Kind of like the IRS, Nats's submissions are now being audited because of previous questionable value assessments.

Go look at Josh’s group sub. They’re looking at particular cards and obvious outliers.

If it wasn’t a shady practice, they would explicitly state the policy on the website. Unless I am blind and cannot find it.

[LeonfromNC]

I thought all bulk orders for $8 per card service are supposed to be for cards with a value of $100 and under?

[rogermaris]

I've had this happen to me before and I agree it's very frustrating. I just want to take a second to distinguish between the two types of upcharges, because I feel differently about each one.

1. Upcharges because the declared value of the raw card was too low.
2. Upcharges because the card is now worth more in the holder due to the grade it received.

I've personally experienced both. I'm okay with the first one -- if I genuinely submit a card with a declared value lower than recent sales, then I should pay more. But if I'm being charged more because my card is now worth more than it is raw due to the grade, I feel exploited. Not to mention it's a major conflict of interest on PSA's part...

In OP's case, it seems like PSA is basing the fees based on the raw values of the cards? Or are they saying that the fee increase is due to the grade the card received?

Either way, it seems like they're either trying to exploit you for more money or being very nitpicky about values based on recent sales. Especially if they're trying to charge you 1k for the Duncan, which is insane as it's worth no more than 2k raw.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Thunderdunk

LoL... Drink the Kool-Aid much? They are a grading company. Not supposed to have bias. Should just grade the card for what it truly is. Placing a arbitrary value so they can get "their cut" is unethical and not a even playing field. Period

If they want to charge more for service times or other upgrades so be it. But the current model is fraud.

Don't use them. Use another company, pay less and sell you cards for even less. This is America. Companies set their own rules. If you don't like it, don't use them. However, the one thing you absolutely cannot do is tell them how to run their company.

[ainmon]

To be fair from PSA's website,

A: Once you are prepared to fill out a submission form, you will need to select a Service Level, which is determined by your Declared Value. We understand you will not know the True Value of the item until it has been certified, so we ask that you form a realistic, educated guess based on your own research, keeping in mind that the Declared Value is also used for insurance purposes.

To determine your values, we recommend that you start by referencing PSA’s Photograde Online to obtain a general, visual illustration of each card grade; this may help you gauge the quality of your cards. Based on this rough assessment, we then advise you to reference the SMR, which is a comprehensive price guide for PSA-certified collectibles, to determine the estimated value of your items. You may also refer to other trade publications, auction prices realized and/or even contact a PSA Authorized Dealer for additional assistance.

Once you arrive at a value, please refer to the submission form or Fee Schedule for PSA Services to determine which Service Level your items are eligible for based on your Declared Value; the price listed will be what you will pay per item.

So PSA does tell you to use your best judgement to estimate the grade and value to determine what service level you should use. In this case, neither were done. If the abuse of the system is blatant then absolutely you should be charged.

PSA doesn't say that the value is the raw value it is the value of the card graded (hence why they refer you to their grading scale). It asks you give an estimation of what you think the card will grade when you value it.

Of course on lots of them, no one can really definitely say that a 25-30 raw card is a PSA 10 so I have to pay xxx to have it graded; however, when a 1-2k raw card sells for many thousands more as a 9 and you submit it as bulk.... hard to say you were wronged...

[Thunderdunk]

Originally Posted by rats60

Don't use them. Use another company, pay less and sell you cards for even less. This is America. Companies set their own rules. If you don't like it, don't use them. However, the one thing you absolutely cannot do is tell them how to run their company.

Well at least I will sleep good at night knowing I am not enabling a fraudulent system. So much wrong with this hobby these days. Trimming and Mafia based grading to name a few.

[gamboooler]

Since people are talking about the 93 SP Jeter, I had a question. Lots of those BGS is willing to grade, PSA is not. What level would PSA charge a submitter at if they send in a BGS 9 trying for a crossover 8.5 or 9 but PSA deems it undersized? Just trying to understand PSA's process here.

[I only pull for]

It's unfortunate that PSA is doing this, but our only other real choice in grading is Beckett, and with what their owner and executive are being charged with I believe I will stay far far away from what they're selling down in Dallas right now.

https://abc11.com/politics/ncgop-cha...arges/5230568/

-- Eli Global owns BGS.

I'm afraid until a new grading company emerges PSA pretty much has a monopoly on the industry at this point.

[ainmon]

Originally Posted by gamboooler

Since people are talking about the 93 SP Jeter, I had a question. Lots of those BGS is willing to grade, PSA is not. What level would PSA charge a submitter at if they send in a BGS 9 trying for a crossover 8.5 or 9 but PSA deems it undersized? Just trying to understand PSA's process here.

Depends if they rule it as trimmed or give it a min size requirement. Trimmed, you pay the price, min size requirement you are not charged. Technically speaking it would most likely be walk through service ($500) but you may be able to get away with Super Express ($200)

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Thunderdunk

Well at least I will sleep good at night knowing I am not enabling a fraudulent system. So much wrong with this hobby these days. Trimming and Mafia based grading to name a few.

Nothing fraudulent or unethical about PSA. I sleep well knowing that my cards will be graded fairly and that PSA is being watched by the FBI because of the large dollars involved in this business based on their opinion.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by gamboooler

Since people are talking about the 93 SP Jeter, I had a question. Lots of those BGS is willing to grade, PSA is not. What level would PSA charge a submitter at if they send in a BGS 9 trying for a crossover 8.5 or 9 but PSA deems it undersized? Just trying to understand PSA's process here.

If the card is determined to be cut short by Upper Deck in 1993, there is no charge. If the card is determined to be trimmed, you will be charged based on the value of the BGS 9.

[gamboooler]

Originally Posted by ainmon

Depends if they rule it as trimmed or give it a min size requirement. Trimmed, you pay the price, min size requirement you are not charged. Technically speaking it would most likely be walk through service ($500) but you may be able to get away with Super Express ($200)

Only asked because if the cost is determined by the value after grading, I don't think a card that doesn't meet the size requirement would be >$500 given what raw copies sell for. But if it's still in the BGS 9 holder, you could argue the value is $1200-1500+ despite PSA's opinion. Then if it's a PSA 9, obviously it's a massive difference. Just don't see how they can in good conscience charge more than $75 for this barring a successful cross, yet wouldn't want to risk a card being held hostage like OP.

Edit: But that is cool that they won't charge you if it was on UD. They get props for that, and I kind of glossed over that at first. Thanks to both above for clearing that up.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by ainmon

To be fair from PSA's website,

Fair enough. I had not been able to locate that before.

I still do not agree with the practice as it is an obvious conflict of interest for the grading company.

[ainmon]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Fair enough. I had not been able to locate that before.

I still do not agree with the practice as it is an obvious conflict of interest for the grading company.

I would argue that it is not a conflict as the grading fee has a direct correlation to the insurance value they place on it with their guarantee. The extra fees go toward the insurance (doesn't matter if they self insure or carry a rider on the card). If you have a 10k card they are insuring it for that value if something were to happen to it in the PSA holder or the card determined not authentic or trimmed etc.

[ainmon]

If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails PSA’s authenticity standards, PSA will either:

1.) Buy the card from the submitter at the current market value if the card can no longer receive a numerical grade under PSA's standards or,

2.) Refund the difference in value between the original PSA grade and the current PSA grade if the grade is lowered. In this case, the card will also be returned to the customer along with the refund for the difference in value.

This is why PSA charges based on what grade it is. You are paying the premium to know that if the card is damaged in the holder or not legit ie trimmed, recolored, fake, etc. that you are protected.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by ainmon

I would argue that it is not a conflict as the grading fee has a direct correlation to the insurance value they place on it with their guarantee. The extra fees go toward the insurance (doesn't matter if they self insure or carry a rider on the card). If you have a 10k card they are insuring it for that value if something were to happen to it in the PSA holder or the card determined not authentic or trimmed etc.

The insurance fees are exorbitant then.

$30000 card? $3000 fee.
$12000 card? $1000 fee.
$7000 card? $500 fee.
$750 card? $75 fee.

I have my wife’s engagement ring insured through USAA for 2% of the value annually. I know there are grading costs and shipping costs associated with these fees also, but those costs are huge for the high-end stuff. Especially when you consider how few cards are subsequently deemed not worthy of the grade, fake, or altered.

How many cards a year do you think fall into that guarantee? I’ve been here almost two years and hve yet to come across a post where a member needed to use that guarantee.

[ainmon]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

The insurance fees are exorbitant then.

$30000 card? $3000 fee.
$12000 card? $1000 fee.
$7000 card? $500 fee.
$750 card? $75 fee.

I have my wife’s engagement ring insured through USAA for 2% of the value annually. I know there are grading costs and shipping costs associated with these fees also, but those costs are huge for the high-end stuff. Especially when you consider how few cards are subsequently deemed not worthy of the grade, fake, or altered.

Most likely they are self insuring it. Also one could argue that it protects the integrity of the grade as well. Are you going to try and pass a trimmed card off to PSA at $500 a try or at BGS for as little as $15 a try?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by ainmon

Most likely they are self insuring it. Also one could argue that it protects the integrity of the grade as well. Are you going to try and pass a trimmed card off to PSA at $500 a try or at BGS for as little as $15 a try?

Given the multitude of trimmed PSA cards that have shown up here in the past six months, that is clearly not deterring anybody.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

How many cards a year do you think fall into that guarantee?

Well, there were about 5 in the past year at $20K or more, that I have heard about. Some were deemed altered after the fact (WWG DiMaggio sold by PSA), and one was a T206 that had a faked signature.
And have you been paying attention to all the posts superdan has been making? PSA is on the hook for the difference between the PSA 9s and 10s they were given and the market value of an Altered card if the owner sends it back to them.

How has BGS responded to any of these threads: completely ignore.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

Well, there were about 5 in the past year at $20K or more, that I have heard about. Some were deemed altered after the fact (WWG DiMaggio sold by PSA), and one was a T206 that had a faked signature.
And have you been paying attention to all the posts superdan has been making? PSA is on the hook for the difference between the PSA 9s and 10s they were given and the market value of an Altered card if the owner sends it back to them.

How has BGS responded to any of these threads: completely ignore.

Of course I’ve been paying attention. I’m in every single thread!

It’s an issue, no doubt. But does the prevalence of payouts justify such a high insurance premium for the customer to pay?

[RogerGodahell]

My whole thing about paying more for different valued cards is i feel like you're buying the grade and i don't think that's right.

Has anyone ever been partially refunded by PSA because they thought the person who submitted the cards deemed them overvalued and paid too much?

I mean there's such a dramatic difference in value from a PSA 8-10 in some cases. It could be 10's of thousands.

I feel like if you pay the premium they're more likely to give you a better grade. Maybe not but that's how it feels like the system is set up.

I definitely like PSA slabs better and that they sell for more in general on the secondary market. But, i like how BGS charges a flat fee for grading it's not a tiered value system.

[hairyangryfella]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

You guys claiming that PSA is doing this to extort fail to remember that only like 20 of the thousands of 1993 SP Derek Jeters grade a 10. Since they now sell for $100K each, why isn't every 1993 SP Jeter grading a 10 yet? They could make millions in additional fees!!!
They are doing this because they are now on the hook for additional costs, nothing more, nothing less. It is not unethical. It is unethical to submit $2000+ cards for grading at bulk submission levels hoping that PSA doesn't notice.

Do you want them to charge every person who ever submits a 1986 Fleer Jordan at the tier for a PSA 10? Same with the 1993 SP Jeter? The market determines the market price, not PSA.

As someone who has never personally sent a card for grading and had no idea about different prices levels or charges based on card values I feel this is completely unethical!
They're a grading company. Their job is to grade a card. It should not matter what value the card is, it gets the same treatment as any other, which is to be graded...
Insurance on return delivery is of course expected, but it sounds like PSA is simply trying to cover their own guarantee by charging customers based on card value, which I find absolutely appalling.

I have a valuable card in a PSA slab that needs re-holdering. Does this mean they'd charge me thousands of dollars to do so, or is it only for new grades?

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by hairyangryfella

As someone who has never personally sent a card for grading and had no idea about different prices levels or charges based on card values I feel this is completely unethical!
They're a grading company. Their job is to grade a card. It should not matter what value the card is, it gets the same treatment as any other, which is to be graded...
Insurance on return delivery is of course expected, but it sounds like PSA is simply trying to cover their own guarantee by charging customers based on card value, which I find absolutely appalling.

I have a valuable card in a PSA slab that needs re-holdering. Does this mean they'd charge me thousands of dollars to do so, or is it only for new grades?

define "valuable"