Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

I understand that notion as well. I think Russell 100% could play in today's game, but he wouldn't be regarded as a top-5 player of all time if he had to have his career from 2010-2025. What makes him special in my book is the era he played in.

You threw out the following:

2 NCAA titles
12 trips to the nba finals (11-1)
5 MVP’s
10-0 in game 7s
30pts 40rebs in a game 7
Player/coached for nba title

The bolded above is only impressive without knowing context. Is 5 MVPs really that impressive when the league had 8 teams? Same thing with 12 trips to the finals. Russell had to go through 3 other teams in the East for the majority of his career. The last season of his career he had to best 6 other teams in the East.

It's amazing for the generation, but in context it seems rather pedestrian.

The players you listed above (Russ or Harden or Simmons) are so much more efficient at basketball than most anything from Russell's era it's not even funny. It's not even a statistical thing, but 6'1'' Bob Cousy is not doing anything to stop those players above. You think their stats are inflated now, can you even imagine what they'd be if we took them and threw them in the 60's?

Players like Cousy would obviously adapt if you brought them forward, but he's not going to be any taller. Cousy, an all time great, wouldn't even be drafted in today's NBA.

It's so apples-planets trying to compare eras that we really should just argue players from the same era in my opinion.

I couldn't disagree more. He won 11 titles in the NBA. It's impressive no matter how you look at it and whatever context you want to add to it. I know the league wasn't the same, but it was a completely different era. There is really no reason to compare the players from then to now because there is no way of knowing anything. The only logical thought is that the star players back then dominated their era. Like 6celtics33 said, you can't just place a player from that era into today's game, and not assume that they have the same luxuries as players today. Look at the traveling conditions, the segregation, the medical staff(or lack there of), and the workouts/fitness stuff that has come about since then. If you want to say that lebron would be great in that era, what would he have access to? He probably wouldn't be as big, he wouldn't be as healthy, he wouldn't have the same skills that he does. There are endless unknowns about players playing in different eras, so I think anyone still needs to give all the credit where it is due to the old guys.

I know players are more athletic now due to technology and what we know about health and fitness now, but I could still say the league is watered down more now than it was then because there are so many bad teams. Imagine if we still had 8 teams now. Every team would have at least 3 all-stars. Some may even have 5 or 6. I'd find that very entertaining lol. Look at how many horrible teams there are now that play horrible basketball.

[mj2kb]

Originally Posted by Andy5

1. MJ
2. LeBron

Also in my opinion, Kobe ain't top 10.

1. MJ - Agree
2. LeBron - Agree

Also in my opinion, Kobe ain't top 10. - Disagree

[drobfan8]

Yes the Spurs are the reason Tim Duncan was so great, that's why they're in line to win so many more championships amiright? Because of a system.......

Mt list

MJ
Russell
Magic
Kareem
TD
Bird
Wilt
Shaq
LeBron

LeBron has the potential to finish at 2. With his overall body of work. He's never been as dominant as Shaq and he's not as good as Bird, but he will overtake them by the end of his career.

The problem with LeBron is, I've never seen a superstar make so many excuses. Some of his playoff losses are just baffling. He's also had his ass kicked so many times and then the finger pointing and changing of the guard takes place.

Different era I guess.

Oh and I notice that people that really know their basketball, have TD in their top 5.

[ninjacookies]

As of right now,

I have it

MJ
Kareem
Lebron

But Lebron will inevitably take that number 2 spot after he ends his career and breaks virtually every record.

But it's still quality over quantity for me. Give Jordan 4 extra years without college that year layoff and see where his numbers would have ranked. And Jordan will always be the prototype player...his game had zero holes on both sides of the ball. His heart and will to win is unrivaled.

Can and will never say that about Lebron.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

As of right now,

I have it

MJ
Kareem
Lebron

But Lebron will inevitably take that number 2 spot after he ends his career and breaks virtually every record.

But it's still quality over quantity for me. Give Jordan 4 extra years without college and a year layoff and see where his numbers would have ranked. And Jordan will always be the prototype player...his game had zero holes on both sides of the ball. Can and will never say that about Lebron.

Kareem, how the hell did I miss him out.

He actually has the best argument to challenge MJ if we're going down the counting stats lane like people do with LeBron.

[monkeymcgee]

I was a huge fan of Bird, but he shouldn’t be higher than Lebron. Even he would say that.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

Kareem, how the hell did I miss him out.

He actually has the best argument to challenge MJ if we're going down the counting stats lane like people do with LeBron.

I agree. Dude was just dominant thru multiple eras. Some may argue Magic made him who he is, but I'd say it was more of a mutualistic relationship. Doubt we'll ever see another like him with that kind of longevity as a true center.

[majestik101]

I have LeBron slightly ahead of Erick Dampier on my list.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

I couldn't disagree more. He won 11 titles in the NBA. It's impressive no matter how you look at it and whatever context you want to add to it. I know the league wasn't the same, but it was a completely different era. There is really no reason to compare the players from then to now because there is no way of knowing anything. The only logical thought is that the star players back then dominated their era. Like 6celtics33 said, you can't just place a player from that era into today's game, and not assume that they have the same luxuries as players today. Look at the traveling conditions, the segregation, the medical staff(or lack there of), and the workouts/fitness stuff that has come about since then. If you want to say that lebron would be great in that era, what would he have access to? He probably wouldn't be as big, he wouldn't be as healthy, he wouldn't have the same skills that he does. There are endless unknowns about players playing in different eras, so I think anyone still needs to give all the credit where it is due to the old guys.

I know players are more athletic now due to technology and what we know about health and fitness now, but I could still say the league is watered down more now than it was then because there are so many bad teams. Imagine if we still had 8 teams now. Every team would have at least 3 all-stars. Some may even have 5 or 6. I'd find that very entertaining lol. Look at how many horrible teams there are now that play horrible basketball.

We agree. That’s kind of my point, about comparing different eras of basketball. You can’t really do it.

What Bill Russell did in his career amazing, in the context of his era. When you try to rank these players all-time it becomes dicey, because the players top to bottom are literally so much better than the players were 50-60 years ago.

Have you ever seen old NBA footage? It’s not good basketball at all, by today’s standards. The game is so much slower, the ball handling is so much worse, the shooting is awful. Teams from the 60s couldn’t beat teams from today, it’s just not even the same game.

Armin Hary set an Olympic Record in the 100m at the 1960 Olympiad with a time of 10.2 seconds. He wouldn’t have qualified for the final in the 2016 Rio Olympics. We don’t remember who got 8th place in the 100m in Rio, but the guys was faster than the Olympic Record setting run that took gold 56 years prior. That’s not to slag Armin Hary, but objectively he wasn’t as fast as guys are today. Could he have been? Maybe, who knows? He may not have even decided to run track in today’s culture.

It’s the same thing with Bill Russell. He’s great in context, but is he realistically a top-5 basketball player of all time? If we’re talking about what he meant to the game, absolutely. If we’re going purely off skill, no he’s just not, and it’s not even is fault.

I truly believe these things need to be ranked by the decade or 15 year intervals, because objectively players like Bob Cousy wouldn’t even touch the court in today’s NBA.

[kaushikentucky]

I know Russell won all those titles, but a lot of those Celtics years there were only 8 NBA Teams......8!

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

This is possible, but Lebron would have gotten his. Unlike MJ, Lebron was bigger than EVERY player on that Bad Boy Pistons team. He had 5 pounds on Lambier. He outweighed MJ by 55 pounds, so while it seems plausible his body wouldn't have held up, I think it probably could have.

He's faster, stronger, and can jump higher than MJ could. If MJ held up, I'm sure Lebron would have been able to.

Can you imagine Lebron hand-checking MJ? Jordan wouldn't be strong enough to back Lebron down, he's not as fast as Lebron and with Lebron able to slow you with his hands you're likely not driving by him. Lebron would be one of the greatest defenders in league history (if he chose to be).

I’ve never seen their combine speed and vertical numbers. I assume by looking at their body that Lebron is stronger. However every time I see Lebron get hit he lays down on the floor like he’s been ran over by a truck. I saw Jordan cut back door on Oakley and cram it down on top of Ewing’s head. Real strong tough guys who were trying to take his head off he powered through them. So I have no worries about Jordan being guarded by Lebron strength wise. He would abuse him in the triangle moving without the ball. Lebron gets lost all the time against good passing teams. He doesn’t have the system fundamentals he would’ve got going to college.

Now let me ask you this, can you imagine with how relentless MJ is going to the rim how many free throws a game he’d shoot today in the no defense allowed league?

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

We agree. That’s kind of my point, about comparing different eras of basketball. You can’t really do it.

What Bill Russell did in his career amazing, in the context of his era. When you try to rank these players all-time it becomes dicey, because the players top to bottom are literally so much better than the players were 50-60 years ago.

Have you ever seen old NBA footage? It’s not good basketball at all, by today’s standards. The game is so much slower, the ball handling is so much worse, the shooting is awful. Teams from the 60s couldn’t beat teams from today, it’s just not even the same game.

Armin Hary set an Olympic Record in the 100m at the 1960 Olympiad with a time of 10.2 seconds. He wouldn’t have qualified for the final in the 2016 Rio Olympics. We don’t remember who got 8th place in the 100m in Rio, but the guys was faster than the Olympic Record setting run that took gold 56 years prior. That’s not to slag Armin Hary, but objectively he wasn’t as fast as guys are today. Could he have been? Maybe, who knows? He may not have even decided to run track in today’s culture.

It’s the same thing with Bill Russell. He’s great in context, but is he realistically a top-5 basketball player of all time? If we’re talking about what he meant to the game, absolutely. If we’re going purely off skill, no he’s just not, and it’s not even is fault.

I truly believe these things need to be ranked by the decade or 15 year intervals, because objectively players like Bob Cousy wouldn’t even touch the court in today’s NBA.

I agree with you but you’re talking about human evolution not a player’s ability to dominate those around him. As for athletic ability, nobody has yet been able to move faster than the ball. Good basketball skills always trumps athletic ability. Duncan played in this era and crushed it. He’s not athletic yet he managed to post a top 8 career by any stretch or metric.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

I’ve never seen their combine speed and vertical numbers. I assume by looking at their body that Lebron is stronger. However every time I see Lebron get hit he lays down on the floor like he’s been ran over by a truck. I saw Jordan cut back door on Oakley and cram it down on top of Ewing’s head. Real strong tough guys who were trying to take his head off he powered through them. So I have no worries about Jordan being guarded by Lebron strength wise. He would abuse him in the triangle moving without the ball. Lebron gets lost all the time against good passing teams. He doesn’t have the system fundamentals he would’ve got going to college.

Now let me ask you this, can you imagine with how relentless MJ is going to the rim how many free throws a game he’d shoot today in the no defense allowed league?

Haha true. People think Harden shoots a lot of free throws....

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

I agree with you but you’re talking about human evolution not a player’s ability to dominate those around him. As for athletic ability, nobody has yet been able to move faster than the ball. Good basketball skills always trumps athletic ability. Duncan played in this era and crushed it. He’s not athletic yet he managed to post a top 8 career by any stretch or metric.

Very good and true point. Can't just judge athletic ability.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

We agree. That’s kind of my point, about comparing different eras of basketball. You can’t really do it.

What Bill Russell did in his career amazing, in the context of his era. When you try to rank these players all-time it becomes dicey, because the players top to bottom are literally so much better than the players were 50-60 years ago.

Have you ever seen old NBA footage? It’s not good basketball at all, by today’s standards. The game is so much slower, the ball handling is so much worse, the shooting is awful. Teams from the 60s couldn’t beat teams from today, it’s just not even the same game.

Armin Hary set an Olympic Record in the 100m at the 1960 Olympiad with a time of 10.2 seconds. He wouldn’t have qualified for the final in the 2016 Rio Olympics. We don’t remember who got 8th place in the 100m in Rio, but the guys was faster than the Olympic Record setting run that took gold 56 years prior. That’s not to slag Armin Hary, but objectively he wasn’t as fast as guys are today. Could he have been? Maybe, who knows? He may not have even decided to run track in today’s culture.

It’s the same thing with Bill Russell. He’s great in context, but is he realistically a top-5 basketball player of all time? If we’re talking about what he meant to the game, absolutely. If we’re going purely off skill, no he’s just not, and it’s not even is fault.

I truly believe these things need to be ranked by the decade or 15 year intervals, because objectively players like Bob Cousy wouldn’t even touch the court in today’s NBA.

And 50 years from now they'll all be LeBron and Giannis types in the NBA.

Will there be an argument that LeBron was able to build stats due to his era being devoid of any other physical specimens like himself?

[tYEwREEEk13]

I'd put Lebron in the top 10... but don't have enough knowledge of the old school players to judge where he should rank.

On a side note... and talking about greatest players... I heard Donovan Mitchell is a redemption... in NT...

[drobfan8]

LeBron has historically struggled with size his entire career. Hence why he needs to stay fast and athletic so he can attack smaller guys. He was owned by D. West when he played the 4. That's just not his game.

It's no surprise that LeBron's best performances have been against teams with zero rim protection.

That Pistons win where he rattled off 25 points in a row was with Ben Wallace gone.

His game 5-7 vs GS to win from 3-1 down was with no Bogut.

I would have loved to have seen him in the era of Mutombo, Zo, Robinson, Olajuwon, Ewing and Shaq.

Greatness is greatness, LeBron would still be great. But things might be different.

[cnewby]

Originally Posted by majestik101

I have LeBron slightly ahead of Erick Dampier on my list.

How do you have Dampier #2 all time?

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by monkeymcgee

I was a huge fan of Bird, but he shouldn’t be higher than Lebron. Even he would say that.

Bird is maybe the toughest player to rank. His peak seasons were as good as almost anyone’s. He was arguably the toughest SOB to step on a court and had an insane level of skill. He was an incredible scorer from any angle or spot, his passing was sublime, he was a solid defender and a great rebounder all without freakish athletic ability. The man just WAS basketball. Talk about intangibles and you can’t start the conversation without Bird. Heart, competitive drive, leadership...the guy was the perfect storm.

Where Larry falls short is his counting stats due to injury but I would argue his legacy is as great as it would be if he had that longevity because of what he meant to the game of basketball. We aren’t on this forum without Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. These guys also dominated their era, got multiple rings, MVPs etc and their contribution to making the NBA a household name can’t be forgotten.

That’s why I rank both he and magic in that top 5-6 range and above Lebron. All three are otherworldly talents. Lebron will have the better career on paper but you just can’t measure what Bird and Magic mean to the game.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by kaushikentucky

I know Russell won all those titles, but a lot of those Celtics years there were only 8 NBA Teams......8!

The counterargument would be that fewer teams meant a higher quality of play and greater depth, unlike the current NBA where every season has 6-8 teams who are (often purposely) awful.

What I find crazy about the NBA during that era is that teams would often luck out based on territorial picks or, in the case of Russell, a bizarre deal involving the Ice Capades that would give the Celtics a chance at the big man.

That 1956 draft got the Celtics Heinsohn, Russell and K.C. Jones. Pretty crazy...and Shiago Green did not work out well for Rochester.

[ballhawkdawk]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

We agree. That’s kind of my point, about comparing different eras of basketball. You can’t really do it.

What Bill Russell did in his career amazing, in the context of his era. When you try to rank these players all-time it becomes dicey, because the players top to bottom are literally so much better than the players were 50-60 years ago.

Have you ever seen old NBA footage? It’s not good basketball at all, by today’s standards. The game is so much slower, the ball handling is so much worse, the shooting is awful. Teams from the 60s couldn’t beat teams from today, it’s just not even the same game.

Armin Hary set an Olympic Record in the 100m at the 1960 Olympiad with a time of 10.2 seconds. He wouldn’t have qualified for the final in the 2016 Rio Olympics. We don’t remember who got 8th place in the 100m in Rio, but the guys was faster than the Olympic Record setting run that took gold 56 years prior. That’s not to slag Armin Hary, but objectively he wasn’t as fast as guys are today. Could he have been? Maybe, who knows? He may not have even decided to run track in today’s culture.

It’s the same thing with Bill Russell. He’s great in context, but is he realistically a top-5 basketball player of all time? If we’re talking about what he meant to the game, absolutely. If we’re going purely off skill, no he’s just not, and it’s not even is fault.

I truly believe these things need to be ranked by the decade or 15 year intervals, because objectively players like Bob Cousy wouldn’t even touch the court in today’s NBA.

I agree with this. I'll admit that I wasn't watching basketball in the 1970s, and I'm really curious how many people on here arguing for those guys were.

Athletes have gotten better over time through evolution, science, nutrition, supplementation, smarter training, etc. Not to mention the participatory rate is at an all-time high. I did a quick search... 1.7% of players were born outside of USA in 1980-81. That number is more like 25% today. Source: http://www.businessinsider.com/nba-f...layers-2016-11

Higher participatory rate and thus a larger talent pool mean the cream of the crop are truly the best in the world. Stuff like this is undeniable in regards to the level of competition today. I think people are hesitant to give credit where it's due. A guy like Steph Curry would dominate any era. Being able to shoot the ball and have it go in the hoop is the object of the game.

As far as the actual question, LeBron is the second best player I've personally ever seen. The fact that he's been able to be the best player in the league for like a decade is ridiculous.

[tjforce]

I respect everyone's right to an opinion, but i lose a little respect for any basketball fan's judgement who has him outside of the top 5.

Nothing personal.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by tjforce

I respect everyone's right to an opinion, but i lose a little respect for any basketball fan's judgement who has him outside of the top 5.

Nothing personal.

The thing is, I doubt he ends up outside anyone's top 5 by the time he's done.

But right now, 3 rings and a bunch of excuses doesn't scream top 5. Especially with the armchair ride to finals every year.

Edit: I should add, he'll probably end up no. 2

But there's way too many votes for him being there right now and even no. 1 is just laughable.

[pingbling23]

It’s hard to debate when people literally make up things to support false arguments. Overall skill, talent, production, all around game, etc Lebron is number two and possibly better then Jordan at number 1. Lebron will never be considered as having a better career then Jordan due to finals record. With seeing what Lebron has been able to do playing against the most athletic players the world has ever seen, it's simply amazing.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

I agree with you but you’re talking about human evolution not a player’s ability to dominate those around him. As for athletic ability, nobody has yet been able to move faster than the ball. Good basketball skills always trumps athletic ability. Duncan played in this era and crushed it. He’s not athletic yet he managed to post a top 8 career by any stretch or metric.

This is a very good point!

I’ve long said to my friends (who don’t watch basketball except for the Finals and don’t care about this type of thing) that LeBron James is the greatest athlete in recorded history. My friends agree that he is.

Does this make him the best basketball player all by itself? No.

Does the fact that he’s at least arguably a top-10 player in terms of basketball skill make him the best ever? No.

I think when you combine everything: Size, Skill, Athleticism, Longevity that he is just is the best overall basketball player ever.

If you were creating a basketball player and created a 6’8”, 250lb player who moved the way Lebron does you wouldn’t think it’s real. That size is such an advantage in the game of basketball it’s honestly not funny. He has hardly any fat on his body, so that 250lb is at least 90% muscle. That’s 225 pounds of muscle. MJ with that same body composition (I think Lebron is a bit more lean but it’s relative) is giving up 50 pounds of muscle. He’s giving up 2 inches in height and a little bit of length in wingspan. Size is so advantageous in basketball that tall bums get paid $Ms just for being tall and being able to jog in something that almost resembles a straight line (looking at you Shawn Bradley).

Does that make Lebron a better basketball player? No.

It’s all opinion.

Lebron is clearly the better passer. Lebron has a higher career FG%, 3PT%, and 2PT%. This is for a guy who we’ve been told can’t shoot. Lebron has averaged under 6 rebounds for a season once in his career, MJ did it 6 times. Lebron has averaged under 6 assists once in his career, MJ did that 12 times.

Does this make Lebron a better basketball player? No.

It’s all opinion.

There’s not one cut and dry piece of information that will ever cement the arguement one way or the other, and that’s okay by me.

More than anything I’m glad I was able to witness the 2nd half of MJs career and the totality of Lebrons. Both are truly special to watch play the game.