LeBron Exquisite /99 - altered & damaged

[Siberian13]

Originally Posted by ebitz

Now, to the actual topic of the thread and my involvement. While I am not in any way happy about the information that has been uncovered about my 2 LeBron Exquisite cards that are in question at this point there is not much that I can do. I’ve owned them for nearly 5 years now and if I think long and hard I can say with great confidence I do not think I’ve ever made a strong effort to put a price on them or sell them. I stand by the fact, which I stated in a post from 2016, that I bought #74/99 as a BGS 9 from sohrob when I bought our his entire collection in 2014 and I did NOT have any knowledge of its prior history. I bought #87 in the same collection raw and graded it BGS 9 when I received it and I recall it being a clean card and didn’t appear trimmed to me. I graded it promptly and it graded BGS 9. I stand by the fact that I did not trim either of these cards or have any involvement with someone else trimming the cards.

It has always been my goal to hold these cards as long as I possibly could and I think owning them for 5 years supports that. I never had any real intention of selling them and I still do not. If the point comes where I want to sell them all I can say is that I will do my best to handle it as responsibly as possible. I understand the magnitude of these cards and the responsibility I have of owning these. I cannot predict the future, and at this point I cannot imagine selling them so it's hard to know how I may or may not go about it when that time comes. This is all I can really promise for now and hopefully it is found to be reasonable.

In 2014 the LeBron Exquisite was a big card no doubt but its not nearly what it is today and they were traded around quite frequently and moved through hands rapidly because everyone wanted one. I know of cards that had changed hands a large number of times before they settled into a collection. So while I have some notes that I took at the time to support my statements above that is all I really have. Hopefully you all can understand that this deal was a long time ago and it was a rather large deal involving hundreds of cards, likely ones of the largest and most important deals to me personally that I have ever done.

Here is my best attempt to answer as many questions as I can to satisfy as many of you as I possibly can. If I did not answer a question you have other ones please feel free to message me directly through here or my website and I’m happy to put in as much time as is required with as many people as I have to via phone. I will not be coming back and posting more and answering more questions on this thread.

Do I trim cards? No
Do I support trimming cards? No
Do I think it is the black hole of the hobby? Yes
Do I think it's going to go away? Unfortunately no, not anytime soon
Have I ever trimmed cards? No
Do I accept that people trimming cards in the hobby is a reality? Yes
Does it surprise me that trimmed cards have ended up in my collection? No
Should it surprise you if the same has happened to you? No
Do I frequently bump cards? Yes
Will I continue to frequently bump cards? Yes
Am I going to apologize for bumping cards? No
Do I support those who bump cards? Yes
Do I support those who don’t agree with bumping cards? Yes
Is there any corruption between myself and BGS? Absolutely not!
Do I wish that this thread never happened? sort of but no
Why no? It is my hope that it can help us evolve and be a catalyst for positive change
Have I ever completed a successful deal with rookies? No
Was I involved in a 3 way deal that would pay rookies based on the grade? No
Did I ever grade the #74 in a BGS 7.5 or 8 to screw over rookies? No, check the BGS reports, you’ll see there’s no card with those grades from that timeline
Have I ever received a card or cards from rookies? No
Who do I think trimmed the card? I truly don’t know and don’t think it’s fair to guess
Did I think either card was trimmed when I purchased from sohrob? No
Am I happy with rookies after what he has seemingly tried to do to me? No
Will I forgive him? Absolutely
Will I deal with rookies in the near term? Probably not
Do I support rookies place in the hobby? Yes
Am I going to flame rookies and try to take him down? No
Am I going to try to prevent him from getting big cards in the future? No
Have I had a feeling that rookies had it out for me for a long time now? emphatic yes
Has this thing taken a great deal of my time? Yes
Do I wish that it had all come to this? No, but maybe it’s what is necessary
Do I have a camp? Um… no
Have I ever thought I had a “camp” ? No
Do I wish I had a “camp”? Maybe sort of, but I think I’m good for now
Do I think that someone I know threatened Jack? I truly hope that is not the case

Eric

Shortened some to help those with reading issues

[rysportguy]

I think the biggest problem that has come out of this is that card grading services need to be better. The grade a card receives has a huge impact on its value and grading needs to be consistent. I don't know the answers for them specifically but they need to grade correctly and look out very closely for card alterations. They have made themselves the driving force of quality control in this industry and have made a lot of money doing so.

It's not right that cards can be graded differently based on the grader or his feelings that day. If they want to continue to have a reputation of being the standard for card quality grading then they need to make the necessary adjustments to keep the integrity of their grades.

Trimming and card bumping wouldn't exist if the card graders could fix these issues. They want to make all the money from being card grading companies so they really should fix this for their own benefit. I am relatively new to this hobby so I am not as well versed as most of you here but that is my biggest takeaway here.

[Siberian13]

So ebitz (Eric) is saying Rookies (Jack) is lying and has it out for him.
Rookies has said conflicting things but says ebitz is lying.
Sohrob is not here to discuss.

So we've learned nothing still.

Round and round we go!

[Boo]

Originally Posted by Siberian13

So ebitz (Eric) is saying Rookies (Jack) is lying and has it out for him.
Rookies has said conflicting thingsbut says ebitz is lying.
Sohrob is not here to discuss.

So we've learned nothing still.

Round and round we go!

That's the way I see it. That makes me laugh about the guys saying "thanks for clearing it up".

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Siberian13

So ebitz (Eric) is saying Rookies (Jack) is lying and has it out for him.
Rookies has said conflicting thingsbut says ebitz is lying.
Sohrob is not here to discuss.

So we've learned nothing still.

Round and round we go!

Correct. We’ll never get the whole story since once of the three (and maybe the most guilty one) is apparently gone from the hobby.

But it is good to actually hear from another party involved instead of other people speaking for him.

We can all agree this is bad bad bad.

[Siberian13]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Correct. We’ll never get the whole story since once of the three (and maybe the most guilty one) is apparently gone from the hobby.

But it is good to actually hear from another party involved instead of other people speaking for him.

We can all agree this is bad bad bad.

The more lies and conflicting stories told just make it easier to hide the truth I guess.

[discostu]

To Eric, I'm glad you responded. It was inevitable. And as stated previously, whether you knew or didn't know whether or not these Lebron's were trimmed...you wouldn't be happy seeing in plain as day on the never-forgetting internet. While I wouldn't expect a hole punch through these Lebrons, vigilance of others will have to make sure that the history is clear.

You're in it for the money, all of us are at certain levels. And I can't fathom what staring at two cards that could have been worth a few hundred grand a few days ago and realizing that now they're worth a small percentage of that isn't the best of news.

Next steps.

Sohrob seems to be a common denominator. And, if your story is to be believed, he successfully passed the hot potato to you and you're left holding it when the bell went off. Did he trim these? We'll need help from people like you. You can do tremendous things for this hobby that you've found by working to bring light to these cards and others like it. That's going to mean knocking some people down in the process. Doing so would effectively prop you up as a victim and hero, while bringing attention as to how you're working to help fix a broken hobby with a lot of ugly bumps. Not the role you probably want, but better than the reverse.

Where does BGS fall here with responsibility? I'd be curious to know the actual measurements of the Lebrons in question. How far "off" are they? My assumption is that they are indeed too small, which is why one arrived to you raw...while the other sneaked by a grading "expert" too busy and carefree. All aspects of grading are subjective with the exception of size. BGS (and PSA as well) have made countless millions of dollars marketing themselves as "experts" and that their opinion has tangible value. How and where are they cutting corners through the process?

Your next steps and how you choose to proceed with these Lebrons (and possibly a lot more in your collection) will be the legacy. That's the brutal truth.

In all scams, someone gets left holding the bag.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by ebitz

Eric

Thanks for posting. No need to quote the entirety of the posts.

Everything you stated sounded pretty reasonable, honestly. I don't think anybody views you as a bad guy, and because of these issues it may seem like you're sort of the scapegoat for some of the ills that surround this hobby.

I'm sincerely glad you have done well for yourself, because I know the work and dedication it takes to get to the point that you've gotten is an awesome grind!

If you never post again on this forum, I'd completely understand. As informative as your post was, I think some of the main points of contention with many in the hobby we're glossed over. Namely:

-If someone bumps a grade should they disclose the previous grade when the card goes to market?

I've read your post a few times, and it's a ton to take in so it's possible my eyes glossed over this, but I don't think this was addressed. I think this is actually a HUGE point of contention with MANY people buying cards. I would venture to guess that when you bump cards and sell them that you don't disclose the previous grade in your listings, as I've never seen it posted in any of your descriptions of graded cards. In fairness, maybe you have and I've missed it. If you haven't ever disclosed the fact, why not? We can all admit that BGS/PSA bump grades, you say you're not going to apologize for bumping cards (which could be taken as you don't care if a card is bumped or not). If it's not a big deal, why not disclose?

-If a card is known to be altered, what should the owner of said card do?

We know those Lebron RPAs have been trimmed. You stated that you're not sure if you'll sell them because you haven't sold them yet, but everybody here knows you're not taking those grave and being buried with them. You even stated the following (bolded for emphasis):

Originally Posted by ebitz

It has always been my goal to hold these cards as long as I possibly could and I think owning them for 5 years supports that. I never had any real intention of selling them and I still do not. If the point comes where I want to sell them all I can say is that I will do my best to handle it as responsibly as possible. I understand the magnitude of these cards and the responsibility I have of owning these. I cannot predict the future, and at this point I cannot imagine selling them so it's hard to know how I may or may not go about it when that time comes. This is all I can really promise for now and hopefully it is found to be reasonable.

The only REAL answer to this question is to disclose that the cards are altered. The fact that you come off waffling on this subject somewhat validates what many on this forum have stated. Sure, there is an unruly mob mentality on this forum that absolutely prevents people from coming to the boards, but the bolded above very nicely sums up some of the hobby hesitation. The fact that you don't know what you "may or may not do" doesn't come across as honest.

Awful analogy, but someone who has a 300SL Gullwing that's been salvaged, but then waffles on whether or not they'd get a salvaged title because they're not sure if they'd ever sell the car is disingenuous at the very least.

I believe you've had a Lebron EXQ RPA available for sale in the past 18 months as well (could be wrong).


None of the above means you're a bad person, I sure don't believe that. None of the above means you trimmed/altered these cards. I don't believe that. I'm glad you posted, I hope to have you around because you're very well versed in aspects of this hobby and could bring a ton of knowledge to the boards.

At the very least, some of what you are describing that you partake is shady AT THE VERY LEAST. Point blank, that's what it is and how it's viewed by many. Doesn't make you a bad person or even a bad card dealer. I'm sure you're not, but it absolutely is shady to many and probably more detrimental to the hobby then beneficial.

[discostu]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Thanks for posting. No need to quote the entirety of the posts.

Everything you stated sounded pretty reasonable, honestly. I don't think anybody views you as a bad guy, and because of these issues it may seem like you're sort of the scapegoat for some of the ills that surround this hobby.

I'm sincerely glad you have done well for yourself, because I know the work and dedication it takes to get to the point that you've gotten is an awesome grind!

If you never post again on this forum, I'd completely understand. As informative as your post was, I think some of the main points of contention with many in the hobby we're glossed over. Namely:

-If someone bumps a grade should they disclose the previous grade when the card goes to market?

I've read your post a few times, and it's a ton to take in so it's possible my eyes glossed over this, but I don't think this was addressed. I think this is actually a HUGE point of contention with MANY people buying cards. I would venture to guess that when you bump cards and sell them that you don't disclose the previous grade in your listings, as I've never seen it posted in any of your descriptions of graded cards. In fairness, maybe you have and I've missed it. If you haven't ever disclosed the fact, why not? We can all admit that BGS/PSA bump grades, you say you're not going to apologize for bumping cards (which could be taken as you don't care if a card is bumped or not). If it's not a big deal, why not disclose?

-If a card is known to be altered, what should the owner of said card do?

We know those Lebron RPAs have been trimmed. You stated that you're not sure if you'll sell them because you haven't sold them yet, but everybody here knows you're not taking those grave and being buried with them. You even stated the following (bolded for emphasis):



The only REAL answer to this question is to disclose that the cards are altered. The fact that you come off waffling on this subject somewhat validates what many on this forum have stated. Sure, there is an unruly mob mentality on this forum that absolutely prevents people from coming to the boards, but the bolded above very nicely sums up some of the hobby hesitation. The fact that you don't know what you "may or may not do" doesn't come across as honest.

Awful analogy, but someone who has a 300SL Gullwing that's been salvaged, but then waffles on whether or not they'd get a salvaged title because they're not sure if they'd ever sell the car is disingenuous at the very least.

I believe you've had a Lebron EXQ RPA available for sale in the past 18 months as well (could be wrong).


None of the above means you're a bad person, I sure don't believe that. None of the above means you trimmed/altered these cards. I don't believe that. I'm glad you posted, I hope to have you around because you're very well versed in aspects of this hobby and could bring a ton of knowledge to the boards.

At the very least, some of what you are describing that you partake is shady AT THE VERY LEAST. Point blank, that's what it is and how it's viewed by many. Doesn't make you a bad person or even a bad card dealer. I'm sure you're not, but it absolutely is shady to many and probably more detrimental to the hobby then beneficial.

I've bumped a few cards that were clearly incorrect and did not disclose the previous grades, nor would I expect anyone to do that. People make mistakes, and grades often reflect that...in good ways and bad ways.

The adage of "buy the card, not the grade" is always in play.

That said, we have to be able to assume that cards measure correctly...BGS and PSA should be able to at least guarantee that.

[smalltown]

Originally Posted by discostu

"buy the card, not the grade"

Always.

[rogermaris]

Originally Posted by ebitz

My real concern for us as a group is what happens when the next Nat Turner wants to get in to the hobby and stumbles on to the forum and he is wanting to learn and he sees us all trying to rip each other down rather than pushing each other up and he decides this is not something he wants to be a part of, it’s not healthy, and it's not good for any of us in the hobby, and unfortunately it's probably already happened. At this rate it’s inevitably going to happen that the next Nat Turner is going to come to the forum and be like wtf, I’m out.

It has always been my goal to hold these cards as long as I possibly could and I think owning them for 5 years supports that. I never had any real intention of selling them and I still do not. If the point comes where I want to sell them all I can say is that I will do my best to handle it as responsibly as possible. I understand the magnitude of these cards and the responsibility I have of owning these. I cannot predict the future, and at this point I cannot imagine selling them so it's hard to know how I may or may not go about it when that time comes. This is all I can really promise for now and hopefully it is found to be reasonable.

I really appreciate you coming and telling your side of the story. Unfortunately, to me this whole post comes across as "hey guys let's drop this issue, not because it hurts me but because it's bad for all of us." I think it's a bit disingenuous to be saying something like that when you have a huge personal interest in this story disappearing. To say that your "real" concern is about other people in the hobby is a little ridiculous. Your real concern is the fact that you have two trimmed lebron cards. I don't know if you knew they were trimmed and I have sympathy for you, but let's at least be honest about what your concerns are.

The second concerning part of your statement regards the future plan for the cards. This is the part I really don't understand. There's no ambiguity here. The only correct response is "Obviously if I ever sell the cards I will remove them from the holders and disclose to the buyer that the card has been trimmed." Your response seems to suggest that you're trying to find ways to avoid doing this...

Overall not a very satisfying response as far as I'm concerned...

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

I really appreciate you coming and telling your side of the story. Unfortunately, to me this whole post comes across as "hey guys let's drop this issue, not because it hurts me but because it's bad for all of us." I think it's a bit disingenuous to be saying something like that when you have a huge personal interest in this story disappearing. To say that your "real" concern is about other people in the hobby is a little ridiculous. Your real concern is the fact that you have two trimmed lebron cards. I don't know if you knew they were trimmed and I have sympathy for you, but let's at least be honest about what your concerns are.

The second concerning part of your statement regards the future plan for the cards. This is the part I really don't understand. There's no ambiguity here. The only correct response is "Obviously if I ever sell the cards I will remove them from the holders and disclose to the buyer that the card has been trimmed." Your response seems to suggest that you're trying to find ways to avoid doing this...

Overall not a very satisfying response as far as I'm concerned...

Exactly where I stand and how I feel about that response. As soon as Eric wrote his reply, others came out to respond as if his statement now has justified/rectified everything and now we can put it past us as if it never happen and lets forget it all.

[chuckerrrr]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

I really appreciate you coming and telling your side of the story. Unfortunately, to me this whole post comes across as "hey guys let's drop this issue, not because it hurts me but because it's bad for all of us." I think it's a bit disingenuous to be saying something like that when you have a huge personal interest in this story disappearing. To say that your "real" concern is about other people in the hobby is a little ridiculous. Your real concern is the fact that you have two trimmed lebron cards. I don't know if you knew they were trimmed and I have sympathy for you, but let's at least be honest about what your concerns are.

The second concerning part of your statement regards the future plan for the cards. This is the part I really don't understand. There's no ambiguity here. The only correct response is "Obviously if I ever sell the cards I will remove them from the holders and disclose to the buyer that the card has been trimmed." Your response seems to suggest that you're trying to find ways to avoid doing this...

Overall not a very satisfying response as far as I'm concerned...

Totally with you Roger!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[splum]

Imagine buying two Lebron James Exquisite RPAs from the same person in the same deal, finding out they're both trimmed, and when compelled to write your thousand word essay about the situation, not really speaking on that person at all except to say that you didn't know they were trimmed when you bought them. Isn't Sohrob the guy to throw under the bus if you're Eric trying to save face? What am I missing here.

[pingbling23]

Card got trimmed in between rookies owning it and ebitz owning it. Ebitz owns multiple trimmed cards that came for sohob. is that the facts from all of this?

[pingbling23]

Last few posts above mine are spot on. I think everyone involved are tarnished in my eyes.

[discostu]

Originally Posted by splum

Imagine buying two Lebron James Exquisite RPAs from the same person in the same deal, finding out they're both trimmed, and when compelled to write your thousand word essay about the situation, not really speaking on that person at all except to say that you didn't know they were trimmed when you bought them. Isn't Sohrob the guy to throw under the bus if you're Eric trying to save face? What am I missing here.

In Eric's scenario, Sohrob is the bus driver and Eric got run over.

However, Eric's not convinced that Sohrob was really behind the wheel...so let's just let bygones be bygones.

Eric doesn't want to drive a bus, he just wants people to forget about buses in general.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

I really appreciate you coming and telling your side of the story. Unfortunately, to me this whole post comes across as "hey guys let's drop this issue, not because it hurts me but because it's bad for all of us." I think it's a bit disingenuous to be saying something like that when you have a huge personal interest in this story disappearing. To say that your "real" concern is about other people in the hobby is a little ridiculous. Your real concern is the fact that you have two trimmed lebron cards. I don't know if you knew they were trimmed and I have sympathy for you, but let's at least be honest about what your concerns are.

The second concerning part of your statement regards the future plan for the cards. This is the part I really don't understand. There's no ambiguity here. The only correct response is "Obviously if I ever sell the cards I will remove them from the holders and disclose to the buyer that the card has been trimmed." Your response seems to suggest that you're trying to find ways to avoid doing this...

Overall not a very satisfying response as far as I'm concerned...

Whew. Glad I’m not the only one to feel this way.

Also, he sort of excused and danced around DK being a total scumbag yesterday.

[theLUCKYshow]

Thanks for sharing, both Jack and Eric. I now feel there is a common story forming. Let's examine rookies recent statements as well as Eric's statement.

Rookies:
I had never heard of a grade based uptic in price. Sohrob actually told me to do that because the card was .5 from 9.5/10 in a tougher grade time with the old bgs label. My thinking and his was hey maybe the card gets a 9.5x3 then a 8 edge and it gets a 9 which I agreed and thought yeah maybe it does. The card was super clean! So 3k kicker was added. Then i hear card grades a 8 and I say yeah thats fair maybe they doubled it and counted surface and edge as a 8. I NEVER SAW A PHOTO OR CONFIRMATION OF THE 8 GRADE. I trusted Sohrob and did many deals with him gift 20k+ blah blah blah. Which at that time was big big card money. The trade was sent to Eric and he was sending to BGS. I didnt talk with him it was all sohrob who was at the time selling his KD collection. I have not done deals with Eric this is true.

Eric:
Now, to the actual topic of the thread and my involvement. While I am not in any way happy about the information that has been uncovered about my 2 LeBron Exquisite cards that are in question at this point there is not much that I can do. I’ve owned them for nearly 5 years now and if I think long and hard I can say with great confidence I do not think I’ve ever made a strong effort to put a price on them or sell them. I stand by the fact, which I stated in a post from 2016, that I bought #74/99 as a BGS 9 from sohrob when I bought our his entire collection in 2014 and I did NOT have any knowledge of its prior history. I bought #87 in the same collection raw and graded it BGS 9 when I received it and I recall it being a clean card and didn’t appear trimmed to me. I graded it promptly and it graded BGS 9. I stand by the fact that I did not trim either of these cards or have any involvement with someone else trimming the cards.
* * *

Lets now take all of what was said above as truth and see where it leads us. So now it is clear that Rookies and Eric never did a direct deal. Any uptick deal was made between Sohrob and Rookies. Rookies was under the impression that the card was going to be delivered to Eric then Eric would immediately send to BGS but he admits he doesnt know if this happened. He was just going off Sohrobs word, no pics or anything. Eric has stated he received the Lebron as a BGS 9 as part of purchasing Sohrobs collection. So with that, it appears Sohrob told Rookies one thing (the payment plan and Eric submitting) while telling Eric nothing (where the #d74 came from). Again, if we are to believe everything Eric says and take what Rookies clarified as truth, it appears Sohrob was the one who submitted the card to BGS and the most likely candidate to be the trimmer.

Now neither Eric or Rookies has said it was Sohrob but all the evidence they provide have all the arrows pointing towards him. Maybe Sohrob has a "guy" (that is a possibility) but until we hear from him or others with direct knowledge that say the contrary, the suspicion is going to fall on him.

Add: Why Sohrob isnt being thrown under the bus by either man is still a head-scratcher. Is this high-end man code or something?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[AbraCalabro]

Originally Posted by Siberian13

So ebitz (Eric) is saying Rookies (Jack) is lying and has it out for him.
Rookies has said conflicting things but says ebitz is lying.
Sohrob is not here to discuss.

So we've learned nothing still.

Round and round we go!

Originally Posted by Boo

That's the way I see it. That makes me laugh about the guys saying "thanks for clearing it up".

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Correct. We’ll never get the whole story since once of the three (and maybe the most guilty one) is apparently gone from the hobby.

But it is good to actually hear from another party involved instead of other people speaking for him.

We can all agree this is bad bad bad.

Originally Posted by Siberian13

The more lies and conflicting stories told just make it easier to hide the truth I guess.

Originally Posted by rogermaris

I really appreciate you coming and telling your side of the story. Unfortunately, to me this whole post comes across as "hey guys let's drop this issue, not because it hurts me but because it's bad for all of us." I think it's a bit disingenuous to be saying something like that when you have a huge personal interest in this story disappearing. To say that your "real" concern is about other people in the hobby is a little ridiculous. Your real concern is the fact that you have two trimmed lebron cards. I don't know if you knew they were trimmed and I have sympathy for you, but let's at least be honest about what your concerns are.

The second concerning part of your statement regards the future plan for the cards. This is the part I really don't understand. There's no ambiguity here. The only correct response is "Obviously if I ever sell the cards I will remove them from the holders and disclose to the buyer that the card has been trimmed." Your response seems to suggest that you're trying to find ways to avoid doing this...

Overall not a very satisfying response as far as I'm concerned...

I'm glad others posted all this, because I was thinking along the same lines.

To summarize what happened thus far, Rookies implicated everyone except himself. BNC comes in and his post is in contrast to relevant statements made by Rookies. Both posters clean their hands of the matter and (passively) blame the guy who is supposed to be out of the hobby. I think rookies has also exhibited passive aggressive behavior a couple times now, making statements against others and then taking them back.

Also:

Originally Posted by ebitz

My real concern for us as a group is what happens when the next Nat Turner wants to get in to the hobby and stumbles on to the forum and he is wanting to learn and he sees us all trying to rip each other down rather than pushing each other up and he decides this is not something he wants to be a part of, it’s not healthy, and it's not good for any of us in the hobby, and unfortunately it's probably already happened. At this rate it’s inevitably going to happen that the next Nat Turner is going to come to the forum and be like wtf, I’m out.

When someone in the hobby, who I consider a friend before anything else, fifthdown literally spends 250k on 1 card we as a group flame him and our first reaction is doubt, I am saddened. It's guys like him that will eventually propel all of us and the hobby forward. It is my hope and belief that the day is going to come where there are 30 Nat Turners and 30 fifthdowns or maybe a lot more in the hobby and they are in it and loving it like we all do. We as a group need to be ready for this and to welcome them with open arms and be ready to support them when they need it. It is with them that we will all move the hobby forward to a level that none of us can currently imagine.

A landmark card has been trimmed and graded and potentially more super high dollar cards have been trimmed and graded. In this case, two of the three people involved are washing their hands clean and as a result, smearing the one guy who is not in the hobby with conflicting stories. When the next Nat Turner wants to jump into the hobby, he will read threads like this so he can be made aware that there are unscrupulous people who are trimming cards with the intent of selling those altered cards to people like him (with a lot of money), with the goal of personal financial gain, integrity be damned. Why anyone, with true concern for the integrity of the hobby would suggest in one way or another that a thread like this is bad and a potential turnoff for future participants blows my mind and it makes no sense. Let's not shift the focus away from the true ordeal.

If I've ever seen Nat Turner post on the boards and throw his nose in the air in a desperate attempt to prove to people he bought a card, then I sure as hell don't remember it. The way Nat conducts himself and his own personal provenance in the hobby are a far cry from the way fifthdown has presented himself. When there are 30 Nat Turners, they're going to be worried about whether or not the cards are trimmed and they're going to see threads like this and see certain names popup and potentially avoid them. Their concerns are not going to involve covering for others, or paying out tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on cards they suspect, or know, are trimmed just to carry on the masquerade of 'we're friends in real life, we talked on the phone, so and so is a great guy' and so on.

As for welcoming them with open arms and supporting them, that's cool...this thread is all about supporting them so that they're better educated on where their money is going...or not.

Some of the guys in this thread are newer entrants in the hobby, but others among us have been to the circus before.

[smalltown]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

Card got trimmed in between rookies owning it and ebitz owning it. Ebitz owns multiple trimmed cards that came for sohob. is that the facts from all of this?

Seems like it.

Originally Posted by splum

Isn't Sohrob the guy to throw under the bus if you're Eric trying to save face? What am I missing here.

Not when it's likely you got more than just those cards from him. How many more cards does BNC own that would now be called into question.

[rustywest]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

I really appreciate you coming and telling your side of the story. Unfortunately, to me this whole post comes across as "hey guys let's drop this issue, not because it hurts me but because it's bad for all of us." I think it's a bit disingenuous to be saying something like that when you have a huge personal interest in this story disappearing. To say that your "real" concern is about other people in the hobby is a little ridiculous. Your real concern is the fact that you have two trimmed lebron cards. I don't know if you knew they were trimmed and I have sympathy for you, but let's at least be honest about what your concerns are.

The second concerning part of your statement regards the future plan for the cards. This is the part I really don't understand. There's no ambiguity here. The only correct response is "Obviously if I ever sell the cards I will remove them from the holders and disclose to the buyer that the card has been trimmed." Your response seems to suggest that you're trying to find ways to avoid doing this...

Overall not a very satisfying response as far as I'm concerned...

Add me to this growing sentiment. You nailed it. Eric's multiple opening paragraph's are nice and all but are essentially a diversion

[chuckerrrr]

Originally Posted by AbraCalabro

I'm glad others posted all this, because I was thinking along the same lines.

To summarize what happened thus far, Rookies implicated everyone except himself. BNC comes in and his post is in contrast to relevant statements made by Rookies. Both posters clean their hands of the matter and (passively) blame the guy who is supposed to be out of the hobby. I think rookies has also exhibited passive aggressive behavior a couple times now, making statements against others and then taking them back.

Also:



A landmark card has been trimmed and graded and potentially more super high dollar cards have been trimmed and graded. In this case, two of the three people involved are washing their hands clean and as a result, smearing the one guy who is not in the hobby with conflicting stories. When the next Nat Turner wants to jump into the hobby, he will read threads like this so he can be made aware that there are unscrupulous people who are trimming cards with the intent of selling those altered cards to people like him (with a lot of money), with the goal of personal financial gain, integrity be damned. Why anyone, with true concern for the integrity of the hobby would suggest in one way or another that a thread like this is bad and a potential turnoff for future participants blows my mind and it makes no sense. Let's not shift the focus away from the true ordeal.

If I've ever seen Nat Turner post on the boards and throw his nose in the air in a desperate attempt to prove to people he bought a card, then I sure as hell don't remember it. The way Nat conducts himself and his own personal provenance in the hobby are a far cry from the way fifthdown has presented himself. When there are 30 Nat Turners, they're going to be worried about whether or not the cards are trimmed and they're going to see threads like this and see certain names popup and potentially avoid them. Their concerns are not going to involve covering for others, or paying out tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on cards they suspect, or know, are trimmed just to carry on the masquerade of 'we're friends in real life, we talked on the phone, so and so is a great guy' and so on.

As for welcoming them with open arms and supporting them, that's cool...this thread is all about supporting them so that they're better educated on where their money is going...or not.

Some of the guys in this thread are newer entrants in the hobby, but others among us have been to the circus before.

Well said Abra.


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[AbraCalabro]

Originally Posted by chuckerrrr

Well said Abra.


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<3

[theLUCKYshow]

Originally Posted by smalltown

Not when it's likely you got more than just those cards from him. How many more cards does BNC own that would now be called into question.

I tend to believe Eric when he says he bought the whole collection off of Sohrob. I've heard he has detailed records for all the cards involved. I'd say all of those cards should be questioned. Many of them I'm sure haven't been trimmed or tampered with but due diligence is still needed with each card from that collection. Will Eric share with us those records and the cards in question? I hope so.

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