2016 Politics Thread - Enter At Your Own Risk - All Politics & Dumb Opinions Here

[quackhead]

Originally Posted by Brobocop

She doesn't need it but should have it. She is ten inches shorter than Trump. There are a fair amount of people out there who would see that height difference and without thinking about it, consider her to be the lesser of the two. That's all the larger podium is there for. No conspiracy.

You're right she doesn't need it. If she thinks she is so much better than Trump and should be ahead of him by 50 POINTS, why does she need a larger podium and why is she requesting the moderator to fact check everything Trump says? It reeks of desperation. She has been practicing for weeks now, and if she can't handle him in this first debate, I think its over for her.

[tke1600]

Originally Posted by Nicnac

Because big business leaders are not bought and sold either... The one running appears to be heavily supported by at least one foreign government...

Foreign government support from business dealings worries people a lot less than all the foreign donations made to the Clinton Foundation and foreign payments made to the Clinton's for their speeches.

[jarrodsalas]

Originally Posted by irfuji

This is the first time I really delved into the details of anything Trump has said.

It's about as short sighted and lacking an understanding of the complexities of national economic policies as I would expect.

Trump?s Wall: Impractical, Impolitic, Impossible

That's a pretty good article explaining the majority of the issues.

Besides the obvious fact that it wont work; proof of which can be seen in the historical evidence of the wall between East/West Germany that was breached an estimated thousands of times per year. You also have to take into consideration the claims he makes of how Mexico will pay or will be forced to pay for it.


1- Cutting off the money that goes into Mexico from illegal immigrants in the US. Trump says $24B flows into Mexico from this source. The Post reported its actually closer to $24M, not billion. Of which not all is from illegal immigrants but even if all of it was it's just 1/10th of a percent of the cost of the wall.

2- Increasing tariffs drives up the cost of goods ($15 minimum wage for people flipping burgers doesn't give me a lot of hope that the cost of cheap goods from Mexico will be replaced with similarly priced goods made in the US) and/or the cheap goods will just be replaced by another country (China anyone?).


3- Visa fees. His plan says that even a small increase in visa fees would pay for the wall and he uses a number of 1M cards issued every year. That would imply a cost increase of $25,000 per card to cover the $25B cost estimate. Even if the number of cards issued increased by 100x to 100M that would mean an increase if $250 per card. The current cost of the card is $160. Either way you look at it a 156% or a 15,600% increase is a HUGE increase, not a small one.

I disagree that illegal immigration is as big a problem as Trump paints it to be. I don't see a huge number of people bemoaning about not being able to get a job as a fruit picker, office cleaner, or other low entry manual labor low wage job that the majority of illegal immigrants take.

It is a problem and we need legitimate solutions. Not half backed ones that wont work.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I trust that a presidential candidate has experts on the issue consulting with him and not people like you and I .

Visa fees would definitely be a small percentage of the pie.

24 million is a laughable figure on transfers. My father sends 15 grand a year for his two daughters. These people are sending half of their paychecks if not more to their families in Mexico.

I see firsthand having a work force of 600 hispanics employed by the company I work for. These people skirt taxes, don't carry insurance, claim dependents that don't exist...I could go on and on. To say that is not a burden on us is being naive.

[Clarka3]

Originally Posted by jarrodsalas

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I trust that a presidential candidate has experts on the issue consulting with him and not people like you and I .

Visa fees would definitely be a small percentage of the pie.

24 million is a laughable figure on transfers. My father sends 15 grand a year for his two daughters. These people are sending half of their paychecks if not more to their families in Mexico.

I see firsthand having a work force of 600 hispanics employed by the company I work for. These people skirt taxes, don't carry insurance, claim dependents that don't exist...I could go on and on. To say that is not a burden on us is being naive.

how do they skirt taxes? They should be taxed through their payroll. if they aren't, or are being paid under teh table, that company is breaking the law and a part of the problem.

and i'm not much of a tax cheat expert, but wouldn't somebody that claimed dependents have to show proof they existed when they did so or at least when they file their return?

Originally Posted by SanAntonioSpurs

The point of tariffs is to make it a level playing field. With out tariffs we will continue to bleed jobs to other countries with cheaper labor cost while increasing our own unemployment rate.

The only reason the Smoot-Hawley didn't help during the Great Depression is because they raised them too high, I think it was around 60% (could be wrong). Tariffs will work, just don't get greedy and raise them to unrealistic levels.

yeah, a big problem was that in order to get the act passed, they had to basically buy off a lot of the congressmen by getting their product included in the tariff list. ended up pretty much tariffing everything and at a high level.

Do you think the outcome would be different this time? Everybody would try to get their piece of that pie "protected".

Originally Posted by ssbledsoe

Whether it's Trump or Hillary, America will be pulled into at least 1 or more conflicts in the next presidency. Hillary is a warhawk, and Trump's verbal diarrhea is going to p!ss off the wrong people.

Truth. Plus, when you have as large of a military as we do, every problem looks like a military solution is best.

Originally Posted by quackhead

You're right she doesn't need it. If she thinks she is so much better than Trump and should be ahead of him by 50 POINTS, why does she need a larger podium and why is she requesting the moderator to fact check everything Trump says? It reeks of desperation. She has been practicing for weeks now, and if she can't handle him in this first debate, I think its over for her.

i will NEVER understand why ANYBODY would be against real-time fact checking in a debate for the highest office in our country. isn't that a good thing to have and something that SHOULD happen at every major debate?

[jarrodsalas]

...............

Originally Posted by Clarka3

how do they skirt taxes? They should be taxed through their payroll. if they aren't, or are being paid under teh table, that company is breaking the law and a part of the problem.

and i'm not much of a tax cheat expert, but wouldn't somebody that claimed dependents have to show proof they existed when they did so or at least when they file their return?

Fake numbers and they never file. They claim 4,5,6 dependants and have minimum withholding's. New number next year... wash and repeat. Trust me on this Clarka.





yeah, a big problem was that in order to get the act passed, they had to basically buy off a lot of the congressmen by getting their product included in the tariff list. ended up pretty much tariffing everything and at a high level.

Do you think the outcome would be different this time? Everybody would try to get their piece of that pie "protected".




Truth. Plus, when you have as large of a military as we do, every problem looks like a military solution is best.



i will NEVER understand why ANYBODY would be against real-time fact checking in a debate for the highest office in our country. isn't that a good thing to have and something that SHOULD happen at every major debate?

[quackhead]

Originally Posted by Clarka3

i will NEVER understand why ANYBODY would be against real-time fact checking in a debate for the highest office in our country. isn't that a good thing to have and something that SHOULD happen at every major debate?

Because it is a debate. A battle of the brains. If a candidate needs the help of a moderator for fact checking, that is a sign of weakness. The fact checking should be done by each of the candidates, not the moderator. There will be plenty of fact checking after the debate from all the news organizations, anyway.

[Clarka3]

Originally Posted by quackhead

Because it is a debate. A battle of the brains. If a candidate needs the help of a moderator for fact checking, that is a sign of weakness. The fact checking should be done by each of the candidates, not the moderator. There will be plenty of fact checking after the debate from all the news organizations, anyway.

no, fact checking each other just becomes argument noise. an impartial moderator and fact-checking team is preferable. look at what happens here. we fact check each other, and it just gets lost in the noise.


the ability to catch your opponent's blatant lies shouldn't be a part of the debate that will help americans decide who should be president. Personally, I'd rather have something fact/checked instantly rather than allowing a lie to have time to percolate in the voters' minds. but, that's just me. I guess I prefer the candidate that has the best ideas and track record vs. the best liar.

[dodgerfanjohn]

I don't feel like quoting so I'll just point to a couple obvious things...

That 11 million illegals send only $24million a year to Mexico...wow. If 1 out of ten sent $1,000 a year, that's $100 million a year so that $24 million is just plain stupid. I have personal knowledge of people on visa overstays that sent $25k a year(to build a house for her mom). They do it by not paying taxes as someone else previously reported. Claim 6 dependents and get EIC as well, staying with family, and not spending much money for themselves.

The second thing...that thousands a year got over the Berlin Wall... thousands would be preferable to hundreds of thousands.

That all said, now seeing the two of the obstinate posters are clearly trolls and from Out of the US, therefore likely not having awareness of US history and laws, and most certainly never having lived alongside illegals, gangs, and so forth. At this point I can't continue to argue with such idiocy and am largely done with this thread. I'm voting for Trump even though it won't matter being from California. I hope the rest of the country does as I will be quite unhappy with crooked lying Hildebeast as president.

[Clarka3]

Originally Posted by dodgerfanjohn

I don't feel like quoting so I'll just point to a couple obvious things...

That 11 million illegals send only $24million a year to Mexico...wow. If 1 out of ten sent $1,000 a year, that's $100 million a year so that $24 million is just plain stupid. I have personal knowledge of people on visa overstays that sent $25k a year(to build a house for her mom). They do it by not paying taxes as someone else previously reported. Claim 6 dependents and get EIC as well, staying with family, and not spending much money for themselves.

The second thing...that thousands a year got over the Berlin Wall... thousands would be preferable to hundreds of thousands.

That all said, now seeing the two of the obstinate posters are clearly trolls and from Out of the US, therefore likely not having awareness of US history and laws, and most certainly never having lived alongside illegals, gangs, and so forth. At this point I can't continue to argue with such idiocy and am largely done with this thread. I'm voting for Trump even though it won't matter being from California. I hope the rest of the country does as I will be quite unhappy with crooked lying Hildebeast as president.

if you don't think gangs are an issue abroad, i don't know what to tell you. that's not just a US thing. neither is illegal immigration.

[jarrodsalas]

Originally Posted by dodgerfanjohn

I don't feel like quoting so I'll just point to a couple obvious things...

That 11 million illegals send only $24million a year to Mexico...wow. If 1 out of ten sent $1,000 a year, that's $100 million a year so that $24 million is just plain stupid. I have personal knowledge of people on visa overstays that sent $25k a year(to build a house for her mom). They do it by not paying taxes as someone else previously reported. Claim 6 dependents and get EIC as well, staying with family, and not spending much money for themselves.

The second thing...that thousands a year got over the Berlin Wall... thousands would be preferable to hundreds of thousands.

That all said, now seeing the two of the obstinate posters are clearly trolls and from Out of the US, therefore likely not having awareness of US history and laws, and most certainly never having lived alongside illegals, gangs, and so forth. At this point I can't continue to argue with such idiocy and am largely done with this thread. I'm voting for Trump even though it won't matter being from California. I hope the rest of the country does as I will be quite unhappy with crooked lying Hildebeast as president.

I'm glad someone else noticed that.

[irfuji]

Originally Posted by jarrodsalas

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I trust that a presidential candidate has experts on the issue consulting with him and not people like you and I .

Visa fees would definitely be a small percentage of the pie.

24 million is a laughable figure on transfers. My father sends 15 grand a year for his two daughters. These people are sending half of their paychecks if not more to their families in Mexico.

I see firsthand having a work force of 600 hispanics employed by the company I work for. These people skirt taxes, don't carry insurance, claim dependents that don't exist...I could go on and on. To say that is not a burden on us is being naive.

I never said they are not a burden. I said they are not as big a problem as Trump makes it out to be.

Even if that number is 100 times the $24M number, that's $2.4B, less than 10% of the one time initial cost of the wall which will end up costing even more in upkeep and maintenance.

Even if the government took 100% of that money, which they have no right to, no legal reason to, and absolutely no way to collect that money the Mexican economy is $2.2 trillion PER YEAR. To claim that $24M, $240M, $2.4B, or $24B would irreparably damage the Mexican economy shows a tremendous lack of understanding of how economics work. $24B would be a big pain, a huge number no doubt. But still barely more than 1% of their GDP per year.

You trust that the presidential candidate has experts. The problem is he has already claimed to know more than Generals and Admirals about military strategy despite have zero experience in the military. He claims that he will hire the best of the best, experts in their field. Yet you have the primary national spokesperson for the Trump campaign named Katrina Pierson who has consistently said things that were astonishingly wrong.

His website calls for a 1 time payment of $5-$10 Billion for the wall which has already been estimated by experts to be less than half of what the wall will cost. His plan has no details on how to pay for the maintenance and upkeep, which again are estimated by experts to exceed the cost of construction by year 7.

So given that there are already multiple experts who have already pointed out the fallacies and inaccuracies of his wall plan, a signature and keystone portion of his candidacy, I have yet to hear or see any acknowledgement or adjustment of his plan. Also keeping in mind that his estimate has fluctuated from $4B to $6 or $7B to 10B to maybe $12B.

Illegal immigrants do skirt taxes, just like US citizens and US corporations. They do lack insurance, just like US citizens. They do claim dependents and take advantage of social programs, just like US citizens do. It is a problem and I continue to say that it just isn't as large of a problem as Trump makes it out to be.

I would prefer to hear how he would address things like Medicare and Medicaid which, in 2014, accounted for $1.114 TRILLION and represented about 7% of our GDP and about 29% of our $3T annual budget. Oh by the way it is expected to grow approximately 5.8% per year between 2015-2025 (2014 was the first year I could find numbers for).

For perspective, UC Berkeley did a study to determine how much welfare programs cost the US. That number was $152.8B or a little less than 1% of our GDP and about 5% of our annual budget.

You highlighted my statement about the wall not working. I don't know how that's an opinion.... The article I posted a link to referenced studies by the Cato Institute which called it the most heavily fortified in modern history, yet successfully breached a thousand or so times each year. The Berlin wall was 96 miles. Let that sink in. 96 miles, the most heavily fortified in modern history, and breached about a thousand times per year. Somehow Trump thinks a wall that is 1,900 miles, over 20 times as long as the Berlin Wall, would work.

I cannot understand given the facts, historical examples, and cost estimates anyone can think that the wall is worth the money, or how Mexico is supposed to be bullied into paying for it, or that it will even work.

[VeedonFleece]

Originally Posted by dodgerfanjohn

The second thing...that thousands a year got over the Berlin Wall... thousands would be preferable to hundreds of thousands.

That all said, now seeing the two of the obstinate posters are clearly trolls and from Out of the US, therefore likely not having awareness of US history and laws, and most certainly never having lived alongside illegals, gangs, and so forth. At this point I can't continue to argue with such idiocy and am largely done with this thread.

As I'm presumably one of the trolls you refer to, I feel it necessary to point out that an estimated 5,000 people escaped from East Berlin during the 28 years the Berlin Wall was in existence.

You can't continue to argue with facts. Bye.

[cruiserdaddy7]

Clarka-

Please address that you atleast read the response to the "skirting taxes" explanation above. They are spot on.

I think sometimes that maybe you do not have alot of life experience outside of the "everyone is great" bubble.

[dodgerfanjohn]

Originally Posted by VeedonFleece

As I'm presumably one of the trolls you refer to, I feel it necessary to point out that an estimated 5,000 people escaped from East Berlin during the 28 years the Berlin Wall was in existence.

You can't continue to argue with facts. Bye.

5,000 over 28 years?

Holy Moses Trump build that damn wall!!!!

Lol we had hundreds of thousands breach our southern border some years!!!!

Thank you for making Donad Trumps best point.

[jarrodsalas]

Originally Posted by VeedonFleece

As I'm presumably one of the trolls you refer to, I feel it necessary to point out that an estimated 5,000 people escaped from East Berlin during the 28 years the Berlin Wall was in existence.

You can't continue to argue with facts. Bye.

Veedon.....we have that number cross in a DAY!!!!

[Astros19]

I spent 20 years managing grocery stores and witnessed how much money was wired to Mexico.
Now granted, I don't know how much was from illegals opposed to legals, but it was a lot.
And I live in the middle of the country here in Des Moines, Iowa.
Not exactly a state that one would think there was a lot of illegal immigrants.
They'd think wrong.
I don't believe many of the figures produced by our government in regards to illegal immigration.
I think the numbers are much higher than reported.
Of course I'm quite skeptical of anything the government tries to tell us.

[dodgerfanjohn]

Originally Posted by Clarka3

if you don't think gangs are an issue abroad, i don't know what to tell you. that's not just a US thing. neither is illegal immigration.

Lol dude. My grandmother lived off Lorena and Whittier Bl in East LA until she passed in 1997.

That places her just a few blocks from Olympic Bl where there were 20+ murders a year for several years in the late 80's/early 90's, largely from illegals.

Lol that you understand gangs though your leaders apparently are hellbent on allowing in enough Muslims to make sure you do.

[VeedonFleece]

Originally Posted by jarrodsalas

Veedon.....we have that number cross in a DAY!!!!

I'm not disputing it. I'm disputing DodgerJohn's assertion that 'thousands a year' crossed the Berlin Wall.

Incidentally, I apologise for twice misspelling your name as 'jarod' - had it been intentional, I would concede it may class as trolling!

[VeedonFleece]

Isn't Clarka American?

Edit: Doesn't matter, I guess. Got a bit confused by DFJ's use of 'your leaders.'

[dodgerfanjohn]

Originally Posted by VeedonFleece

I'm not disputing it. I'm disputing DodgerJohn's assertion that 'thousands a year' crossed the Berlin Wall.

Incidentally, I apologise for twice misspelling your name as 'jarod' - had it been intentional, I would concede it may class as trolling!

Again you troll...that thousands number was taken from another posters posting....someone who agrees with your position!!!!

Regardless, thousands a year or 5,000 over 28 years...if that was the effect of Trumps wall I'd be very happy!

[irfuji]

Originally Posted by dodgerfanjohn

I don't feel like quoting so I'll just point to a couple obvious things...

That 11 million illegals send only $24million a year to Mexico...wow. If 1 out of ten sent $1,000 a year, that's $100 million a year so that $24 million is just plain stupid. I have personal knowledge of people on visa overstays that sent $25k a year(to build a house for her mom). They do it by not paying taxes as someone else previously reported. Claim 6 dependents and get EIC as well, staying with family, and not spending much money for themselves.

The second thing...that thousands a year got over the Berlin Wall... thousands would be preferable to hundreds of thousands.

That all said, now seeing the two of the obstinate posters are clearly trolls and from Out of the US, therefore likely not having awareness of US history and laws, and most certainly never having lived alongside illegals, gangs, and so forth. At this point I can't continue to argue with such idiocy and am largely done with this thread. I'm voting for Trump even though it won't matter being from California. I hope the rest of the country does as I will be quite unhappy with crooked lying Hildebeast as president.

For the record, the $24M was a number the Post stated. I have no idea how accurate that number is. But go ahead and read the post I threw up just before this one. Even if that number is way higher it would do no good to actually pay for the wall.

I'd like to focus on you saying that Hillary is a liar.

Here- The weekend America's newspapers called Donald Trump a liar - Sep. 25, 2016

The NY Times, Politico, Washing Post and The LA Times found that Trump is by far the bigger liar between Hillary and Trump.

Politico found that Trump averages one falsehood every 3 minutes and 15 seconds. Compared to one every 12 minutes by Hillary.

You can point to the so called scandals surrounding Hillary and there will be a scandal many multiples worse on Trumps record.

[jarrodsalas]

Originally Posted by VeedonFleece

I'm not disputing it. I'm disputing DodgerJohn's assertion that 'thousands a year' crossed the Berlin Wall.

Incidentally, I apologise for twice misspelling your name as 'jarod' - had it been intentional, I would concede it may class as trolling!

He wasn't disputing it. Look at his comment about 100,000+ making it over a year. We have had millions breach our barb wire fence.

No worries on the misspelling.

[Davesportscards]

Anyone else wondering how Hillary will be able to stand unassisted for 90 minutes tonight?

[jarrodsalas]

Originally Posted by irfuji

For the record, the $24M was a number the Post stated. I have no idea how accurate that number is. But go ahead and read the post I threw up just before this one. Even if that number is way higher it would do no good to actually pay for the wall.

I'd like to focus on you saying that Hillary is a liar.

Here- The weekend America's newspapers called Donald Trump a liar - Sep. 25, 2016

The NY Times, Politico, Washing Post and The LA Times found that Trump is by far the bigger liar between Hillary and Trump.

Politico found that Trump averages one falsehood every 3 minutes and 15 seconds. Compared to one every 12 minutes by Hillary.

You can point to the so called scandals surrounding Hillary and there will be a scandal many multiples worse on Trumps record.

Please make it stop. I may be right behind Dodgerfan soon.

[VeedonFleece]

Originally Posted by dodgerfanjohn

Again you troll...that thousands number was taken from another posters posting....someone who agrees with your position!!!!

Regardless, thousands a year or 5,000 over 28 years...if that was the effect of Trumps wall I'd be very happy!

Again with the trolling BS.

Anyway, having read your post back, I see that I may have misread/misinterpreted what you said. I didn't see the original post as I'm not on here 24/7 as another claimed I was. To you, I also offer my sincerest apologies.

Edit: Substitute 'may have' with 'clearly'. Nobody can be right all of the time!