The Official Boston Red Sox vs St. Louis Cardinals World Series Thread - Page 25

MetDude · 10-27-2013, 11:38 AM

I was pointing and shouting "obstruction" before jim joyce even raised his arm.
In looking at the replay afterward the only doubt I had was whether or not craig had maybe just barely been out of the basepath.

As for middlebrooks, the intent is not relevant.
But anyone who has ever played competetive football or hockey or baseball knows
full well that there is the possibility that it was intentional. Its a split second thing.
You know youre about to lose, you know the runner has to jump over you and you also have to get up. What would you do? Absolutely nothing ? or lift your legs "in the process of getting up" and "accidentally" trip the runner in the hopes the ump blatantly screw up?

Its not relevant to the call but to dismiss the possibilty outright is naive.

xplainer · 10-27-2013, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedSoxFan28

How does the run count if Craig never touched home? I know he was awarded home, but if he never touches it doesn't count, right?

As a Brave fan, this happened this year to us. Someone (can't remember his name) on the Brewers hit a homer and started jawing to the pitcher straight out of the box. He continued all the way around third. When he rounded third and headed home..still running is mouth, Brian McCann was waiting there. They jawed chest to chest and the dugouts emptied. He was ejected and never touch home plate. But the run counted.

xplainer · 10-27-2013, 11:50 AM

Looked it up. It was Carlos Gomez. Here is the Youtube:

Brewers Braves Bench clearing brawl. Carlos Gomez fight. - YouTube

RedSoxFan28 · 10-27-2013, 11:52 AM

Middlebrooks thought on it:
"I tried to get up," Middlebrooks said. "His hands were on top of me. I felt something [pushing] on top of me, when I saw the replay, I saw it was his hands. What am I supposed to do?"

"I was just trying to push myself up. The first thing I thought was [the ball] hit the baserunner, and it was somewhere around close. I was just going to get up and pick it up, as I'm trying to get back up, I get pushed back down, because he was going over me."

"I don't understand it. I don't understand it. I have to dive for that ball. I'm not in the baseline. I feel like if he's in the baseline, he's at my feet."

groundsupport · 10-27-2013, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedSoxFan28

Middlebrooks thought on it:
"I tried to get up," Middlebrooks said. "His hands were on top of me. I felt something [pushing] on top of me, when I saw the replay, I saw it was his hands. What am I supposed to do?"

"I was just trying to push myself up. The first thing I thought was [the ball] hit the baserunner, and it was somewhere around close. I was just going to get up and pick it up, as I'm trying to get back up, I get pushed back down, because he was going over me."

"I don't understand it. I don't understand it. I have to dive for that ball. I'm not in the baseline. I feel like if he's in the baseline, he's at my feet."

If doesn't know the rules the it is his fault.

MarshallCutler6 · 10-27-2013, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by groundsupport

If doesn't know the rules the it is his fault.

Agreed, as has been stated at least 20 times in this thread, Craig established the baseline. Middlebrooks is a professional baseball player, he should know the rules.

speedyjg13 · 10-27-2013, 12:03 PM

can we get over the obstruction call and look forward to game 4 already?

8lakers24 · 10-27-2013, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedSoxFan28

Middlebrooks thought on it:
"I tried to get up," Middlebrooks said. "His hands were on top of me. I felt something [pushing] on top of me, when I saw the replay, I saw it was his hands. What am I supposed to do?"

"I was just trying to push myself up. The first thing I thought was [the ball] hit the baserunner, and it was somewhere around close. I was just going to get up and pick it up, as I'm trying to get back up, I get pushed back down, because he was going over me."

"I don't understand it. I don't understand it. I have to dive for that ball. I'm not in the baseline. I feel like if he's in the baseline, he's at my feet."

so whats your point? he still got in craigs way

MetDude · 10-27-2013, 12:06 PM

Lost in all of this....
Playing to maintain a tie on the road in the 9th inning of a WS game makes no sense to me.
Sox shoulda pinch hit for workman in the top of the ninth.

Were they completely out of bench players ?

babybull · 10-27-2013, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetDude

Lost in all of this....
Playing to maintain a tie on the road in the 9th inning of a WS game makes no sense to me.
Sox shoulda pinch hit for workman in the top of the ninth.

Were they completely out of bench players ?

They had Napoli and Berry left.

MetDude · 10-27-2013, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babybull

They had Napoli and Berry left.

Thanks!

If had been the 7th inning,
I would totally get saving napoli in the hopes of using him with RISP.
With 1 out in the top of 9th inning, it makes no sense to me.

RedSoxFan28 · 10-27-2013, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8lakers24

so whats your point? he still got in craigs way

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarshallCutler6

Agreed, as has been stated at least 20 times in this thread, Craig established the baseline. Middlebrooks is a professional baseball player, he should know the rules.

Yes, I understand.... With there being 6 feet of baseline and he has 4-5 feet of baseline to run in he runs in the only foot Middlebrooks is in?

Quote:

Originally Posted by groundsupport

If doesn't know the rules the it is his fault.

I believe he doesn't understand what else he could have done on that play.
"So it sounds like the only way Middlebrooks could have avoided obstruction would have been to secretly be Nightcrawler from the X-men."

I do agree with the call when you look at the current rule on obstruction, but I don't completely like/agree the rule. Middlebrooks left Craig room to run, plenty of it within the baseline, but Craig decided to run where he was. Craig has the right to run there, but the fielder gave him room to run and Craig chose to run where the down fielder was.

Anyways onto game 4, hopefully Buchholz can pitch well and the bats can get going against Lynn.

mnvikingstwins · 10-27-2013, 01:02 PM

Once again, this is one of the drawbacks of being an umpire as there are so many people that have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junior Griffey

Yes, Craig was 2 ft inside the baseline. You can't lean into a pitch, you shouldn't be able to intentionally draw an obstruction call either.

Meaning he still was within the painted baseline by a foot, but defined his new baseline when he got up. Nice try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfisher27

So Craig's first steps were back to second base. Technically he should have touched third again before advancing home. That was a full step.

Sure. That's exactly how the rules work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfisher27

Bases loaded walk to end the game, you're awarded first base, you still have to touch first base

He was already out by the play, so he's awarded home by the obstruction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedSoxFan28

How does the run count if Craig never touched home? I know he was awarded home, but if he never touches it doesn't count, right?

See above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedSoxFan28

Middlebrooks thought on it:
"I tried to get up," Middlebrooks said. "His hands were on top of me. I felt something [pushing] on top of me, when I saw the replay, I saw it was his hands. What am I supposed to do?"

"I was just trying to push myself up. The first thing I thought was [the ball] hit the baserunner, and it was somewhere around close. I was just going to get up and pick it up, as I'm trying to get back up, I get pushed back down, because he was going over me."

"I don't understand it. I don't understand it. I have to dive for that ball. I'm not in the baseline. I feel like if he's in the baseline, he's at my feet."

He was still in the baseline no matter how you put it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedSoxFan28

Yes, I understand.... With there being 6 feet of baseline and he has 4-5 feet of baseline to run in he runs in the only foot Middlebrooks is in?

I believe he doesn't understand what else he could have done on that play.
"So it sounds like the only way Middlebrooks could have avoided obstruction would have been to secretly be Nightcrawler from the X-men."

I do agree with the call when you look at the current rule on obstruction, but I don't completely like/agree the rule. Middlebrooks left Craig room to run, plenty of it within the baseline, but Craig decided to run where he was. Craig has the right to run there, but the fielder gave him room to run and Craig chose to run where the down fielder was.

Anyways onto game 4, hopefully Buchholz can pitch well and the bats can get going against Lynn.

Runner has the right to any/all part of the baseline. Craig absolutely does not have to run around Middlebrooks, as that would be the point of obstruction if you get in the way of the runner so that he needs to take a less direct route to his base.

MetDude · 10-27-2013, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedSoxFan28

Yes, I understand.... With there being 6 feet of baseline and he has 4-5 feet of baseline to run in he runs in the only foot Middlebrooks is in?

I do agree with the call when you look at the current rule on obstruction, but I don't completely like/agree the rule. Middlebrooks left Craig room to run, plenty of it within the baseline, but Craig decided to run where he was. Craig has the right to run there, but the fielder gave him room to run and Craig chose to run where the down fielder was.

Even if Craig circles around Middlebrooks and no contact is made its still obstruction. the runner is not required to take several extra steps to avoid the fielder. the runner has the right to the basepath. all of it. not part of it. The onus is on the fielder to get out of the way. Fault, intent and pointing out there was nothing middlebrooks could really do is not relevant.

As for the rule itself, without it fielders would "accidentally" obstruct runners every single time they had a chance.

mainerunr · 10-27-2013, 01:50 PM

FWIW, I dont blame middlebrooks, there was nothing he could do. The location of the throw was the fault, he had to lay out to try to get it and in doing so, put himself in a no-win position. Salty should have held the ball (didn't we JUST see a throw from home to third give away a run in Game 2...) with a weak batter up next.

At any rate, the Sox need to be fired up tonight, they win tonight and its a best of 3 with 2 in Fenway...

IamRalpho · 10-27-2013, 02:10 PM

I love conspiracy theories as much as everyone, but the Red Sox themselves blew this game. John Farrell totally melted down and for the 2nd game in a row, they threw it away.

No blame for the umps at all, Red Sox did themselves in.

Zoop · 10-27-2013, 03:04 PM

Turning the page in the name of rationality...

Buchholz was in pain throwing his warm-up yesterday but it looks like he is going to gut it out. Curious as to which Lance Lynn will arrive at Busch tonight. I'm guessing a crappy one, leading to a slugging contest between the two clubs.

Any word on Craig, by the way? I can't find the results to his tests anywhere.

RedSoxFan28 · 10-27-2013, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mainerunr

FWIW, I dont blame middlebrooks, there was nothing he could do. The location of the throw was the fault, he had to lay out to try to get it and in doing so, put himself in a no-win position. Salty should have held the ball (didn't we JUST see a throw from home to third give away a run in Game 2...) with a weak batter up next.

At any rate, the Sox need to be fired up tonight, they win tonight and its a best of 3 with 2 in Fenway...

Fault, intent and pointing out there was nothing middlebrooks could really do is not relevant.

Agreed I blame Salty, if he didn't throw it this never would have happened

Anyone have lineups for tonight's game?

SeanieTheMan · 10-27-2013, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoop

Turning the page in the name of rationality...

Buchholz was in pain throwing his warm-up yesterday but it looks like he is going to gut it out. Curious as to which Lance Lynn will arrive at Busch tonight. I'm guessing a crappy one, leading to a slugging contest between the two clubs.

Any word on Craig, by the way? I can't find the results to his tests anywhere.

Me too buddy. I have zero confidence in Lynn. By far our worst pitcher. I'm expecting him to get rocked by the Red Sox well offense. Although it makes me a bit more confident that Buchholz seems to be very fatigued. I really wish Matheny would let Miller pitch.

hagausaf · 10-27-2013, 03:45 PM

exactly why does STL refuse to hand Miller a start in the playoffs

marl1220 · 10-27-2013, 03:49 PM

Think of it this way. It's the sporting universes way of getting even with New England area sports fans for the "tuck" play several years ago back. It's a rule, regardless of how "fair" it is.

WCTYSON · 10-27-2013, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanieTheMan

Me too buddy. I have zero confidence in Lynn. By far our worst pitcher. I'm expecting him to get rocked by the Red Sox well offense. Although it makes me a bit more confident that Buchholz seems to be very fatigued. I really wish Matheny would let Miller pitch.

Actually Lynn and Miller have very similar numbers on the season.

Noah0298 · 10-27-2013, 03:59 PM

Miller needs to get the ball at some point tonight. Lynn is most likely not going to last more than 5 or 6, and with Martinez out for the most part, Miller needs to be the one to get through a few innings rather than Axford/Mujica. I still believe Rosenthal would be ready for a save situation if need be.

Let's hope for a homerun tonight for the Cards! Too much to ask?

xplainer · 10-27-2013, 04:00 PM

I don't have much faith in either starting pitcher tonight.

So, probably both go deep and it ends 3-2.

JohnRyno · 10-27-2013, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoop

Turning the page in the name of rationality...

Buchholz was in pain throwing his warm-up yesterday but it looks like he is going to gut it out. Curious as to which Lance Lynn will arrive at Busch tonight. I'm guessing a crappy one, leading to a slugging contest between the two clubs.

Any word on Craig, by the way? I can't find the results to his tests anywhere.

Big mistake, homeboy.

Does anyone else feel like the playoffs(aka Winter League MLB) should be in aug/sept? I absolutely hated pitching in the spring/fall. I never had a rubber arm, but even guys that do have to feel like total azz after pitching in the winter...at night.

10-27-2013, 11:38 AM	#601
MetDude Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Brooklyn NY Posts: 4,751	I was pointing and shouting "obstruction" before jim joyce even raised his arm. In looking at the replay afterward the only doubt I had was whether or not craig had maybe just barely been out of the basepath. As for middlebrooks, the intent is not relevant. But anyone who has ever played competetive football or hockey or baseball knows full well that there is the possibility that it was intentional. Its a split second thing. You know youre about to lose, you know the runner has to jump over you and you also have to get up. What would you do? Absolutely nothing ? or lift your legs "in the process of getting up" and "accidentally" trip the runner in the hopes the ump blatantly screw up? Its not relevant to the call but to dismiss the possibilty outright is naive. __________________ 2008 Topps Chrome Red Refractor SET #'d/25 98.8% complete! NEED THESE 4 - PLEASE LMK!!! 55 Orlando Hudson,150 Homer Bailey,191 Edinson Volquez, MHRC536 Mantle HR #536

10-27-2013, 11:52 AM	#604
RedSoxFan28 Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Maine Posts: 12,550	Middlebrooks thought on it: "I tried to get up," Middlebrooks said. "His hands were on top of me. I felt something [pushing] on top of me, when I saw the replay, I saw it was his hands. What am I supposed to do?" "I was just trying to push myself up. The first thing I thought was [the ball] hit the baserunner, and it was somewhere around close. I was just going to get up and pick it up, as I'm trying to get back up, I get pushed back down, because he was going over me." "I don't understand it. I don't understand it. I have to dive for that ball. I'm not in the baseline. I feel like if he's in the baseline, he's at my feet." __________________ #FreeBrady

10-27-2013, 12:06 PM	#609
MetDude Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Brooklyn NY Posts: 4,751	Lost in all of this.... Playing to maintain a tie on the road in the 9th inning of a WS game makes no sense to me. Sox shoulda pinch hit for workman in the top of the ninth. Were they completely out of bench players ? __________________ 2008 Topps Chrome Red Refractor SET #'d/25 98.8% complete! NEED THESE 4 - PLEASE LMK!!! 55 Orlando Hudson,150 Homer Bailey,191 Edinson Volquez, MHRC536 Mantle HR #536

10-27-2013, 02:10 PM	#616
IamRalpho Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Boston Posts: 17,699 IamSilly	I love conspiracy theories as much as everyone, but the Red Sox themselves blew this game. John Farrell totally melted down and for the 2nd game in a row, they threw it away. No blame for the umps at all, Red Sox did themselves in. __________________ If you have under 25 iTrader feedback or any negative, I will ask you to send first I do not ask for much, but please leave feedback if everything goes well with our deal.

10-27-2013, 03:04 PM	#617
Zoop Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 8,684 ZooperBowl	Turning the page in the name of rationality... Buchholz was in pain throwing his warm-up yesterday but it looks like he is going to gut it out. Curious as to which Lance Lynn will arrive at Busch tonight. I'm guessing a crappy one, leading to a slugging contest between the two clubs. Any word on Craig, by the way? I can't find the results to his tests anywhere. __________________ Lifelong St. Louis Cardinals fan. Lifelong Seattle Seahawks fan. Albert Pujols. Bret "Hitman" Hart. Yadier Molina. Ichiro. Instagram: ZooperBowl Life is too short to be mad on a message board.

10-27-2013, 11:50 AM	#603
xplainer Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: South Georgia Posts: 2,436	Looked it up. It was Carlos Gomez. Here is the Youtube: Brewers Braves Bench clearing brawl. Carlos Gomez fight. - YouTube

10-27-2013, 12:03 PM	#607
speedyjg13 Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 17,268	can we get over the obstruction call and look forward to game 4 already?

10-27-2013, 01:50 PM	#615
mainerunr Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,558	FWIW, I dont blame middlebrooks, there was nothing he could do. The location of the throw was the fault, he had to lay out to try to get it and in doing so, put himself in a no-win position. Salty should have held the ball (didn't we JUST see a throw from home to third give away a run in Game 2...) with a weak batter up next. At any rate, the Sox need to be fired up tonight, they win tonight and its a best of 3 with 2 in Fenway...

10-27-2013, 03:45 PM	#620
hagausaf Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Tampa Posts: 5,268 hagausaf	exactly why does STL refuse to hand Miller a start in the playoffs __________________ Selling everything. PM me who you want and Ill send you a list and prices

10-27-2013, 03:49 PM	#621
marl1220 Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 9,810	Think of it this way. It's the sporting universes way of getting even with New England area sports fans for the "tuck" play several years ago back. It's a rule, regardless of how "fair" it is.

10-27-2013, 03:59 PM	#623
Noah0298 Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,710 noah0298 Noah0298	Miller needs to get the ball at some point tonight. Lynn is most likely not going to last more than 5 or 6, and with Martinez out for the most part, Miller needs to be the one to get through a few innings rather than Axford/Mujica. I still believe Rosenthal would be ready for a save situation if need be. Let's hope for a homerun tonight for the Cards! Too much to ask? __________________ http://s1069.photobucket.com/albums/u462/Noah0298/ After 48 hours, If a PM hasn't been responded to, the deal is off.

10-27-2013, 04:00 PM	#624
xplainer Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: South Georgia Posts: 2,436	I don't have much faith in either starting pitcher tonight. So, probably both go deep and it ends 3-2.