PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Just as bad as these guys are their accomplices who not only shill these altered cards, but through a variety of other methods influence hobbyists into thinking graded cards deserve outrageous premiums. These accomplices are responsible for the REAL monetary damage and are likely long-time hobby insiders who know how typical hobbyists think.

If people choose to pay big money for graded cards (or ungraded cards, or stamps, or art, or wine, for that matter) that is their prerogative. Those that pump graded cards—the Gary V. types—are not criminals and are not "just as bad" as the PWCCs and Gary Mosers of the hobby. I only speak for myself, but I'm not uncovering altered cards to affect the graded market one way or the other. Market forces will determine that.

My goal is to expose fraud and corruption in the hobby that I love, as much as I can. I'll let the FBI and the lawyers decide if what I find is worth pursuing in criminal or civil matters.

[smackvay]

Originally Posted by superdan49

If people choose to pay big money for graded cards (or ungraded cards, or stamps, or art, or wine, for that matter) that is their prerogative. Those that pump graded cards—the Gary V. types—are not criminals and are not "just as bad" as the PWCCs and Gary Mosers of the hobby. I only speak for myself, but I'm not uncovering altered cards to affect the graded market one way or the other. Market forces will determine that.

My goal is to expose fraud and corruption in the hobby that I love, as much as I can. I'll let the FBI and the lawyers decide if what I find is worth pursuing in criminal or civil matters.

keep up the great work!!!

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by superdan49

If people choose to pay big money for graded cards (or ungraded cards, or stamps, or art, or wine, for that matter) that is their prerogative. Those that pump graded cards—the Gary V. types—are not criminals and are not "just as bad" as the PWCCs and Gary Mosers of the hobby. I only speak for myself, but I'm not uncovering altered cards to affect the graded market one way or the other. Market forces will determine that.

My goal is to expose fraud and corruption in the hobby that I love, as much as I can. I'll let the FBI and the lawyers decide if what I find is worth pursuing in criminal or civil matters.

Wonderful perspective, well said.
Cheers!

[Bruins1993]

Newsflash to the PSA sheep, a slabbed altered card, given numerical grade, negatively affects the value of unaltered cards in population.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by superdan49

If people choose to pay big money for graded cards (or ungraded cards, or stamps, or art, or wine, for that matter) that is their prerogative. Those that pump graded cards—the Gary V. types—are not criminals and are not "just as bad" as the PWCCs and Gary Mosers of the hobby. I only speak for myself, but I'm not uncovering altered cards to affect the graded market one way or the other. Market forces will determine that.



My goal is to expose fraud and corruption in the hobby that I love, as much as I can. I'll let the FBI and the lawyers decide if what I find is worth pursuing in criminal or civil matters.

People who pump up the graded market in order to maximize the profit of altered graded cards they knowingly own or introduce into the market are criminals just as much as those that alter the cards themselves.

To think that PWCC and Moser aren’t doing whatever they can to increase the value of their altered cards and manipulate the market is ridiculous. To think they’re not associated with people who do what they can to make the work of card doctors more profitable by creating market forces is equally ridiculous and not much different than shilling.

Granted this is beyond the scope of your work, but all these people are criminals.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by superdan49

If people choose to pay big money for graded cards (or ungraded cards, or stamps, or art, or wine, for that matter) that is their prerogative. Those that pump graded cards—the Gary V. types—are not criminals and are not "just as bad" as the PWCCs and Gary Mosers of the hobby. I only speak for myself, but I'm not uncovering altered cards to affect the graded market one way or the other. Market forces will determine that.

My goal is to expose fraud and corruption in the hobby that I love, as much as I can. I'll let the FBI and the lawyers decide if what I find is worth pursuing in criminal or civil matters.

Don't let Bruins1993 see this. His whole schtick is bashing the pumpers.

Arthur

[Pink Pussycat]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

People who pump up the graded market in order to maximize the profit of altered graded cards they knowingly own or introduce into the market are criminals just as much as those that alter the cards themselves.

To think that PWCC and Moser aren’t doing whatever they can to increase the value of their altered cards and manipulate the market is ridiculous. To think they’re not associated with people who do what they can to make the work of card doctors more profitable by creating market forces is equally ridiculous and not much different than shilling.

Granted this is beyond the scope of your work, but all these people are criminals.

Well said... they are building an empire for the TPG grading market (under completely false pretenses). If the all-powerful Roman Empire could fall, so eventually can PSA.

[pip]

Really sad but probably true. An increasing number of collectors are going to find themselves victims to massive card doctoring fraud. Just posted on Net54:

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by pip

Really sad but probably true. An increasing number of collectors are going to find themselves victims to massive card doctoring fraud. Just posted on Net54:

Yes it is, but if people start looking at the actual cards in the slabs now before making a purchase...and not just completely trusting the label...that’s a really great thing for the hobby overall.

That is, until the criminals start influencing people to just start only looking at labels again.

[pip]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Yes it is, but if people start looking at the actual cards in the slabs now before making a purchase...and not just completely trusting the label...that’s a really great thing for the hobby overall.

That is, until the criminals start influencing people to just start only looking at labels again.

I'll tell you what would be useful. A phone app or small device that could scan a graded card and then compare the size to the standard size for that particular year/series. Data could be saved and collated among users over time such that both an acceptable and unacceptable tolerance could be determined. That way, some of PSA's and Beckett's bias and subjectivity could be effectively eliminated.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by pip

I'll tell you what would be useful. A phone app or small device that could scan a graded card and then compare the size to the standard size for that particular year/series. Data could be saved and collated among users over time such that both an acceptable and unacceptable tolerance could be determined. That way, some of PSA's and Beckett's bias and subjectivity could be effectively eliminated.

What you're describing, was also recently posted on Net54 and sounds promising, both in theory and the individual working on the program.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=277221

Computer authentication, is being developed.

[pip]

Originally Posted by auburn35

What you're describing, was also recently posted on Net54 and sounds promising, both in theory and the individual working on the program.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=277221

Computer authentication, is being developed.

I was referring to something that could be used at card shows. Also, the HAL 9000 vision of a computer program that can detect card alterations is a pipe dream. There's too much natural variation within vintage sets to implement such a protocol. Size, however, is a valid variable.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by pip

I'll tell you what would be useful. A phone app or small device that could scan a graded card and then compare the size to the standard size for that particular year/series. Data could be saved and collated among users over time such that both an acceptable and unacceptable tolerance could be determined. That way, some of PSA's and Beckett's bias and subjectivity could be effectively eliminated.

Why not just have just PSA state what the acceptable tolerances are?

Of course, none of this really matters. The card doctors will just find out what the tolerances are and adjust accordingly. While that’s happening, hobbyists will just bicker back and forth about what tolerances are proper (with input from the unknown card doctors screwing everything up) and everything continues to fall apart as all starts to become too frustratingly complicated.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by pip

I was referring to something that could be used at card shows. Also, the HAL 9000 vision of a computer program that can detect card alterations is a pipe dream. There's too much natural variation within vintage sets to implement such a protocol. Size, however, is a valid variable.

This person has a great track record with this technology, so I'm optimistic, he'll be able to implement a useful and reliable service. The post's even mentioned going to a phone app, might be possible.
Vintage is a problem, as you'll need to find enough unaltered items to use as good references but I've worked with vision inspection systems from the early 90's, running on MS-DOS that can quickly learn and then accurately inspect items.
Technology is there, you just need to set the variables (size would be a great start) to inspect.

[pip]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Why not just have just PSA state what the acceptable tolerances are?

Of course, none of this really matters. The card doctors will just find out what the tolerances are and adjust accordingly. While that’s happening, hobbyists will just bicker back and forth about what tolerances are proper (with input from the unknown card doctors screwing everything up) and everything continues to fall apart as all starts to become too frustratingly complicated.

Because there are no standard acceptable tolerances that are uniformly applied. Available evidence supports the contention that tolerances are submitter specific. TPGs cannot police themselves.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by pip

Because there are no standard acceptable tolerances that are uniformly applied. Available evidence supports the contention that tolerances are submitter specific. TPGs cannot police themselves.

True, but neither can hobbyists.

The good intentions of honest hobbyists will be overthrown by the scam artists, card doctors and those with too much $$$ to lose interjecting their feedback.

It truly is a lost cause.

[superdan49]

Cross-posting from one of the Will Jaimet threads to ensure it is seen for restitution purposes. It was first sold through PWCC:

Originally Posted by superdan49

PSA Cert #:29043106

1967 Topps Wacky Packs #33 Grave Train PSA 8 to PSA 10
Alteration types: Corners sharpened
Set Registry status: In a user's private registry set

Sold on 3/27/2017 as a PSA 8 by eBay seller takklotz to t***9 (masked VCP ID for Will Jaimet's qut9 eBay account) for $300.00
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 9/26/2018 as a PSA 10 for $3,938.00
Final price: $3,938.00
Value gain: $3,638.00


Although the seller of the PSA 8, takklotz, did not post a reverse image, this card was identified using the unique size and shape of the areas around the perforations, in addition to a single print spot on the right front border. Corndog had found a few of these high-grade, altered Wacky Packs cards linked to Will Jaimet before, which you can view here and here. With this Grave Train card, it is the same M.O. as the two uncovered by Corndog: Jaimet buys a PSA 8 example, sharpens a corner or two, and voila!, the altered card is now graded a PSA 10. The pink boxes show the sharpened corners, and there is also a detailed image composite below.

Here is what BO member ken161 said about this set (which he used to avidly collect) and PWCC's recent brokering of numerous high-grade examples:




PSA 8: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/n...3/193980/PSA/8
PSA 10: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1755581

[superdan49]

I will be cross-posting any Will Jaimet-sourced cards which were sold through PWCC in this higher profile thread as well to ensure they receive the attention from the proper authorities.

Originally Posted by superdan49

PSA Cert #:27597198

1967 Topps Wacky Packs #18 Schmutz Beer PSA 8 to PSA 9
Alteration types: Trimming
Set Registry status: In a user's private registry set

Sold on 3/26/2017 as a PSA 8 by eBay seller yepbg to t***9 (masked VCP ID for Will Jaimet's qut9 eBay account) for $350.00
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 10/29/2017 as a PSA 9 for $1,351.00
Final price: $1,351.00
Value gain: $1,001.00


This card came in via tip after a BO member saw my previous post. It is another Will Jaimet PSA 8 Wacky Packs purchase, followed by alteration, followed by grading with PSA, and finished up with auction at PWCC. The card's right edge was trimmed, which is best seen on the back by comparing the distance of the print spot from the PSA 8 to the PSA 9. As you can see in the detailed image below, that spot is significantly closer to the left reverse edge in the PSA 9 when compared to the PSA 8. Green circles mark print spots and unique paper patterns around the perforations, allowing for confirmation that the two image sets are of the same card. The red box shows the border that was trimmed. Please note: The images of the PSA 8 were taken from the earlier 10/8/2015 sale of this card at Clean Sweep Auctions. EBay seller yepbg did not include a photo of the card's reverse.



PSA 8: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/n...s/193993/PSA/8
PSA 9: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1569752

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

The dollar value of the cards here, plus the PWCC thread ($1.94 million by last count), the TriplesSs thread ($79,084) as well as the other threads scattered across all the subforums, already FAR exceeds PSA's reserves for guarantees.

They're going to have to drop their guarantee or they're going to be insolvent sooner than later.

Has anyone kept up on the total value of all the presented altered cards, originating from PWCC? This $1.94 million is the last number that I have found, from August.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Has anyone kept up on the total value of all the presented altered cards, originating from PWCC? This $1.94 million is the last number that I have found, from August.

We have not updated the spreadsheet since September when SetBuilder went MIA. His figures do not account for most of the Card-buyer/OCSI stuff, any of the Johnny Adams Jr. stuff, and now any of the Evan Mathis finds.

[Bowman1951]

Originally Posted by superdan49

We have not updated the spreadsheet since September when SetBuilder went MIA. His figures do not account for most of the Card-buyer/OCSI stuff, any of the Johnny Adams Jr. stuff, and now any of the Evan Mathis finds.

Interesting. Although he has logged in since on 11/1.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by Bowman1951

Interesting. Although he has logged in since on 11/1.

I just checked, 11/1 was his last login, but 9/16 was his last post. He took the spreadsheet project on himself (and did a great job, I should add). If anyone with that skill set wants to pick up where he left off, PM or e-mail me.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by superdan49

We have not updated the spreadsheet since September when SetBuilder went MIA. His figures do not account for most of the Card-buyer/OCSI stuff, any of the Johnny Adams Jr. stuff, and now any of the Evan Mathis finds.

That's what I was thinking, as SetBuilder hasn't been active, during the latest discoveries.
I received a follow up from the Oregon Department of Justice and thought it would be useful to provide them with an updated total.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by superdan49

PSA Cert #:27597199

1967 Topps Wacky Packs #20 Gadzooka Gum PSA 7 to PSA 9
Alteration types: Trimming
Set Registry status: None

Sold on 4/5/2017 as a PSA 7 by eBay seller 70topcat to t***9 (masked VCP ID for Will Jaimet's qut9 eBay account) for $92.99
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 10/29/2017 as a PSA 9 for $551.00
Final price: $551.00
Value gain: $458.01


This is another card found by the same tipster as the previous one. This PSA 9 has some of the most blatant trimming I've seen, as both left corners on the reverse look like ski jumps (see red arrows). The green boxes on the fronts are to show how much closer the wording in the upper right quadrant are to the edge in the PSA 9 than the PSA 7, which proves trimming. The yellow circles are print marks and unique markings around the perforations proving the two sets of images are of the same card.



PSA 7: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/n...0/193996/PSA/7
PSA 9: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1569753

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[superdan49]

Originally Posted by superdan49

PSA Cert #:42281253

1967 Topps Wacky Packs #25 Chock Full O' Nuts and Bolts PSA 8 to PSA 9
Alteration types: Trimming
Set Registry status: Brian's 1967 Topps Wacky Die Cuts

Sold on 3/26/2017 as a PSA 8 by eBay seller mass35nyc to t***9 (masked VCP ID for Will Jaimet's qut9 eBay account) for $269.99
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 1/28/2019 as a PSA 9 for $770.00
Final price: $770.00
Value gain: $500.01


Here is another Will Jaimet trimmed card from this classic non-sports set. Here he trimmed the right edge, which is clearly much skinnier in the PSA 9 holder than its previous incarnation as a PSA 8. The green circles are unique marks around the die-cutting and perforations, proving the two images are of the same card. EBay seller mass35nyc did not provide reverse scans, but the evidence of trimming here is nevertheless crystal clear.



PSA 8: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/n...5/193978/PSA/8
PSA 9: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1899757

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