Wander Franco Rookie Card Debate (2021 Bowman's Best vs. 2022 RC logo cards)

[Jblaw1]

Originally Posted by zworykin

I don't know - if we had a summer associate at my firm demonstrate this level of reasoning/arguing ability, there's a real possibility we wouldn't invite them back full time...

This made me actually laugh out loud.

[cardsin47]

This whole thing is kinda’ a funny, sad mess. We have some pretty bright minds on this Forum, ( note I said “some” …. ) and collectively we can’t agree on what should be the simplest of definitions - what is a Rookie Card?

I know it puts me in a tricky situation financially if I have to go out and buy both Prospect and RC Wax of all the young / talented Players each year, because I don’t know which will be considered “the” RC 5+ years from now. Since I PC Wax for baseball, football, basketball, hockey and soccer, I am buying about 50% Baseball now to cover all these options, while it only makes up for 20% of my collecting interest. With the other 4 Sports, this isn’t an issue — a RC is universally a RC, and it’s not debated. ( with an exception for Soccer because of all the Leagues and Stickers )

This isn’t a complaint - it’s still good to be Me, but man having to buy multiple cards of everyone I like, not knowing which will be ‘considered’ a prospect or rookie gets expensive!

[StateEx]

Originally Posted by zworykin

I don't know - if we had a summer associate at my firm demonstrate this level of reasoning/arguing ability, there's a real possibility we wouldn't invite them back full time...

Some good lawyer humor here. Thanks for the laugh.

[hotcalsun]

Originally Posted by Pacmeyer

Some lawyers just like using at least 4 times the number of words needed to get their point across.

When you bill by the minute, word count matters.

[zworykin]

I know, I know, everybody gets an offer... but it's nice to dream.

[jhssketchcards]

I’m going to write to SCOTUS Jackson and ask her to define a RC…


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[JoshMN]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

I’m going to write to SCOTUS Jackson and ask her to define a RC…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Alito is the Justice that would most likely know something about baseball cards.

[pewe]

I can't believe every argument we had in the beginning of this thread is being rehashed a 2nd time...

...have/are RC definitions changed
...does Topps / MLB / MLBPA decide what the hobby thinks is a RC
...does the broader hobby care about what BO thinks
...was this a dramatic top-down conspiracy fitting of a TV-show
...is pewe always correct

[eastbayak]

With 2021 Bowman's Best cards/wax tanking, anyone doubling up?

[pewe]

Originally Posted by eastbayak

With 2021 Bowman's Best cards/wax tanking, anyone doubling up?

I've debated buying some wax, which I normally don't do... but prices haven't gone down

And I only collect one player, and his cards also haven't declined in price, so I've been holding off, hoping things might come down before I add some more.

Overall I'm a bit sad BB'18 remain pricier than I'd prefer

[eastbayak]

Originally Posted by pewe

I've debated buying some wax, which I normally don't do... but prices haven't gone down

And I only collect one player, and his cards also haven't declined in price, so I've been holding off, hoping things might come down before I add some more.

Overall I'm a bit sad BB'18 remain pricier than I'd prefer

Wax has actually come down some. I know this because I bought at higher prices (at the low-end of what was available on eBay when I picked up such boxes) than they're currently listed.

On a side note, you can probably work an off-eBay deal with some of the current listings to save an extra 10% (and whatever sales tax that may be applicable).

I'm actually debating picking up another box or two (off-eBay though).

[pewe]

Originally Posted by eastbayak

Wax has actually come down some. I know this because I bought at higher prices (at the low-end of what was available on eBay when I picked up such boxes) than they're currently listed.

On a side note, you can probably work an off-eBay deal with some of the current listings to save an extra 10% (and whatever sales tax that may be applicable).

I'm actually debating picking up another box or two (off-eBay though).

I haven't been watching the auctions, but I do see they've been selling a bit lower than the BIN. The BIN sales still seem to be stuck in the low $400s... but auctions have been $350-375 for some time now.

I've been most interested to buy a sealed case... They haven't come below $3K, though. I kept hoping I might grab one in the $2500 range.

[eastbayak]

Originally Posted by pewe

I haven't been watching the auctions, but I do see they've been selling a bit lower than the BIN. The BIN sales still seem to be stuck in the low $400s... but auctions have been $350-375 for some time now.

I've been most interested to buy a sealed case... They haven't come below $3K, though. I kept hoping I might grab one in the $2500 range.

I'm not sure how much you're watching these boxes but prices have softened and there's a number of active listings in the $300s (one is currently as low as $360).

You're unlikely to grab a case at $2500 since that'd be $312.5 per box and sealed cases get a premium too.

[pewe]

Originally Posted by eastbayak

I'm not sure how much you're watching these boxes but prices have softened and there's a number of active listings in the $300s (one is currently as low as $360).

You're unlikely to grab a case at $2500 since that'd be $312.5 per box and sealed cases get a premium too.

I want that sealed case premium

[zworykin]

Originally Posted by pewe

I want that sealed case premium

Indeed, I'd love to add another to the stash, but there's too much other stuff to spend money on right now. Like gasoline...

[eastbayak]

Originally Posted by zworykin

Indeed, I'd love to add another to the stash, but there's too much other stuff to spend money on right now. Like gasoline...

Simple solution, don't drive!

[Pacmeyer]

Originally Posted by eastbayak

With 2021 Bowman's Best cards/wax tanking, anyone doubling up?

Can you buy a box for less than release day cost? If you can't answer yes then it's not tanking.

I only have 2 boxes so it's nice if prices go up but it matters little if they go down. The tanking talk is just tiresome because we all know, despite you having some 21 BB, you're still holding your nose at it.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by Pacmeyer

Can you buy a box for less than release day cost? If you can't answer yes then it's not tanking.

I only have 2 boxes so it's nice if prices go up but it matters little if they go down. The tanking talk is just tiresome because we all know, despite you having some 21 BB, you're still holding your nose at it.

I can’t speak to wax since I don’t collect any, but as far as singles go, prices are a little down. Nothing that I would call tanking though. I think most of this has to be with player performance. Guys like Wander, Witt, Tork, and Adley, have all had sluggish starts to their season and have seen their prices all around take a hit. The one that’s held its value the best? J-Rod’s BB49, and he coincidentally has had the best start to his season. I think some of Wander’s dip also has to do with people going after ‘22 RC logo cards as well.

[eastbayak]

Originally Posted by Pacmeyer

Can you buy a box for less than release day cost? If you can't answer yes then it's not tanking.

I only have 2 boxes so it's nice if prices go up but it matters little if they go down. The tanking talk is just tiresome because we all know, despite you having some 21 BB, you're still holding your nose at it.

Tanking was a poor choice of words. Price softening would've been better.

I do want the product to succeed because I prefer to be in the green than red.

But you're right, I was never fully sold on the product as it was mostly hyped by a subgroup of collectors. I was willing to take a gamble on it though.

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

I can’t speak to wax since I don’t collect any, but as far as singles go, prices are a little down. Nothing that I would call tanking though. I think most of this has to be with player performance. Guys like Wander, Witt, Tork, and Adley, have all had sluggish starts to their season and have seen their prices all around take a hit. The one that’s held its value the best? J-Rod’s BB49, and he coincidentally has had the best start to his season. I think some of Wander’s dip also has to do with people going after ‘22 RC logo cards as well.

You're right about the player performance aspect. I picked up (and still have) some Witt and noticed the correlation between sluggish start and eBay sales (as one would normally expect).

I'm wondering if any members jumped ship between only collecting BB21 to collecting both BB21 and 22 RCs.

Definitely wish I picked up some J-Rod parallels when I picked up some Witts.

[towerymt]

Originally Posted by eastbayak

Definitely wish I picked up some J-Rod parallels when I picked up some Witts.

He's still cheap

[brewtown107]

Originally Posted by BigSeph

This has nothing to do with printing errors, foul language, a Marlboro ad in the background, etc. You are really taking a huge logical leap here to equate a product not only produced but released in wide distribution, with specific errors on single cards. The difference between this and, say, the Alex Gordon card I posted earlier, is that this alleged error with 21 BB was never corrected.

The FF Ripken was corrected. The Alex Gordon card was hunted down by Topps and very few escaped into the wild. There was no recall on 21 BB.



As was the 2007 Alex Gordon but, again, Topps attempted to destroy or mutilate any they could find before they were packed out. That violated the MLBPA/Topps codified agreement on production of baseball cards when that Alex Gordon was packed out. And they attempted to correct that error.

No one has attempted to correct this error on 21 BB if it was indeed an error, so again, your logic is faulty.



You literally made this up and posted it. The worst arguments are the ones where a guy literally makes up some crap and says there, that's why I'm right. Please point to one baseball card publication in the history of mankind that says what you have said here today. Go ahead and prove that your definition here exists anywhere in a hobby publication. Who's the ultimate appeal when you offer this argument? You made it up? Ok then? Would you like to tell us all what is and is not a rookie card on every product released hereafter since you've made yourself the ultimate arbiter of the rookie card definition?



It's not really rational if you literally made up this "standard" out of thin air.

The moon is made of cheese. This is a rational and reasonable argument, even if you decide you don't agree with it.

The earth is balanced on the back of a cosmic turtle deep at the bottom of our solar system. This is a rational and reasonable argument, even if you decide you don't agree with it.



I'd like to take your argument seriously but it can't just be something you made up.

This is just the arrogant and clueless response that I expected from you. I wonder if anyone who actually knows the definition of RC has a response that is less idiotic than yours.

[BigSeph]

Originally Posted by brewtown107

This is just the arrogant and clueless response that I expected from you. I wonder if anyone who actually knows the definition of RC has a response that is less idiotic than yours.

Arrogant would be making up some RC standard out of thin air (an error can't be a RC) and then saying it like it's a fact.

[oplum29]

Originally Posted by pewe

I can't believe every argument we had in the beginning of this thread is being rehashed a 2nd time...

...have/are RC definitions changing NOPE
...does Topps / MLB / MLBPA decide what the hobby thinks is a RC NOPE
...does the broader hobby care about what BO thinks YES
...was this a dramatic top-down conspiracy fitting of a TV-show YES a 30-30
...is pewe always correct NO COMMENT

there you have it

[brewtown107]

Originally Posted by BigSeph

Arrogant would be making up some RC standard out of thin air (an error can't be a RC) and then saying it like it's a fact.

Hush child, the adults are talking.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by BigSeph

Arrogant would be making up some RC standard out of thin air (an error can't be a RC) and then saying it like it's a fact.

This is the perfect example that you don't understand AT ALL and that you have ignored everything I've said in this thread.

Every single definition of RC is made up. There is not some sanctioning body with actual authority on this issue. You put stock in Beckett. Fine. Some choose to put stock in the licensing bodies and the card manufacturers. Fine. Some reject all of that and go with what they see is most accurate given the state of the hobby, the nature of the sport, the history of the concept of rookie card, or any other reason they deem relevant. But in the end, it's ALL made up.

So it's fine to want someone to refute the definition you accept in order for them to change your mind. But no one needs to do that. It's perfectly fine for your definition to differ from mine, even if you think yours has more hobby history or perceived authority behind it. The annoying part is that you insist everyone agree with you or you get EXTREMELY defensive.

If tomorrow the majority of collectors decided only purple cards could be considered true rookie cards, then regardless of the history of rookie card definition, that's how those cards would be traded in the market. The market doesn't care about your history. It only cares about current general perception. What is the prevailing opinion at the time. It doesn't care the reasons for that opinion like you do. I certainly understand how frustrating it can be to have an opinion that you feel is the best and most logical and have the majority of people disagree. If we didn't think our position was the best one, we wouldn't hold that position. But until you recognize that with no actual authority to appeal to, you are at the hands of general public opinion, which can be completely irrational at times, you will never see the real picture here.

So while no one really needs to convince you to change your position, if you want your personal definition to be the one widely accepted, it is on YOU to convince them. Not vice versa. If your definition is so logical and foolproof, people will agree with you in the end. We'll just have to wait and see. I have my opinion on whether the hobby will be convinced in the future, but I guess we won't know for sure until much later.