eBay Authenticity Guarantee limit now $500

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by kon jelly

Why would any seller opt out? It essentially makes every one of their sales non-refundable. At least until they start charging it would be pretty foolish to not take advantage of the program as a seller.

1) Because they don't trust EBay/CSA to not mishandle/damage their cards
2) Because they don't think CSA "graders" know what they're doing
3) Because the program is unpopular with buyers and may cause fewer buyers to be interested in their listings

I know quite a few sellers have pulled some of their high-value listings off EBay for precisely this reason.

And there are quite a fewer buyers like me who are avoiding "authenticity guaranteed" listings for the same reason.

In my case, pretty much the only high-priced cards I collect are pack-issued HOFer/future HOFer autos, which are obviously already known to be authentic. And since I collect almost exclusively raw (so I can keep my cards in binders for easy display), I really don't care too much about minute differences in condition.

I've bought literally thousands of cards on EBay over the past 23 years.....I think I've had to return one card in all that time due to condition issues....

[Bambino22]

I think I just dinged the corner of my Marco orange heritage. Trying to put it in a proper top loader from this stupid flex.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by mfw13

1) Because they don't trust EBay/CSA to not mishandle/damage their cards
2) Because they don't think CSA "graders" know what they're doing
3) Because the program is unpopular with buyers and may cause fewer buyers to be interested in their listings

I know quite a few sellers have pulled some of their high-value listings off EBay for precisely this reason.

And there are quite a fewer buyers like me who are avoiding "authenticity guaranteed" listings for the same reason.

In my case, pretty much the only high-priced cards I collect are pack-issued HOFer/future HOFer autos, which are obviously already known to be authentic. And since I collect almost exclusively raw (so I can keep my cards in binders for easy display), I really don't care too much about minute differences in condition.

I've bought literally thousands of cards on EBay over the past 23 years.....I think I've had to return one card in all that time due to condition issues....

There’s zero difference between their handling your cards than BGS, PSA, SGC or any other TPG. Mishandling cards is generally not a topic of conversation when discussing TPGs.

Given its success rate, I’m delighted to have this program just like most others. It provides a professional feel. The people who don’t like it are those who need to flip their cards as soon as they get them and people obsessed with control. Other people that don’t like the program are those who knowingly sell bad merchandise, those who worry they do.

Surely auction houses and others that sell items of the same value will publicly complain to try to drive more business to themselves.

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Nobody is disputing that....but the program should be opt-in, not mandatory.

Sellers can opt in for their own protection, and buyers could have the option to have the card reviewed if they so choose.

But it shouldn't be mandatory....

Originally Posted by mfw13

1) Because they don't trust EBay/CSA to not mishandle/damage their cards
2) Because they don't think CSA "graders" know what they're doing
3) Because the program is unpopular with buyers and may cause fewer buyers to be interested in their listings

I know quite a few sellers have pulled some of their high-value listings off EBay for precisely this reason.

And there are quite a fewer buyers like me who are avoiding "authenticity guaranteed" listings for the same reason.

In my case, pretty much the only high-priced cards I collect are pack-issued HOFer/future HOFer autos, which are obviously already known to be authentic. And since I collect almost exclusively raw (so I can keep my cards in binders for easy display), I really don't care too much about minute differences in condition.

I've bought literally thousands of cards on EBay over the past 23 years.....I think I've had to return one card in all that time due to condition issues....

Cant really have it optional for both parties, what happens if the seller opts in, and buyer opts out, or vice-versa.

Im more agreement with the other poster about seller's lack of incentive to opt-out. The concept of final sale is huge for a seller, and I personally feel a lot more comfortable selling high dollar raw cards because it cuts out possible shenanigans.

For (1), since these are authenticators from CSG handling your card, and not some random guy (which would be the case without the program- your end buyer- who handles it and then has the option, up to 3 days later, to file INAD), Im not really concerned. Imo the chances of a professional authenticator/grader messing up a card are much, much less than some buyer attempting shenanigans wanting to return a card (which you hear about all the time on ebay).

(2) is along the lines of (1), but without damage, if you mean they reject something for a bogus reason (this is very uncommon territory here- the reason is usually just seller error- when people post about theirs being rejected, it's usually because of that), then what happens...they just send it back? Not the end of the world for a seller.

(3) This is probably the biggest argument to be made of the 3, however for a seller who wants protection, in say a $2k card sale.....yea maybe a few buyers might pass it by (buyers which the sellers might not want to sell to anyway, since they are that much set against a 3rd party)- the seller simply values the protection more and waits for someone who will pay and is ok with it, not a huge problem for the seller. Further, you have to consider there are some people who specifically check for the the AG check to make a purchase- you might not, but you have to realize many others out there do look for it (it makes it appear 'legit' to these buyers, and gives them piece of mind when purchasing say, a highly counterfeited vintage card). So if anything, you have to weigh this increase in buyers against the ones that are turned away. Not as simple as just saying you lose out on buyers.

All in all, I think this program, as-is, is great from the sellers perspective, and provides great protection. There is zero reason I'd opt out as a seller. As a buyer, for me it's been an annoyance, but tolerable. I've done many AG transactions from both sides, so have a good idea of it.

Originally Posted by chris_ac

There are times where I see the value in this. If you could excuse yourself from it voluntarily, then most would and the same damaged cards keep flowing through but the loopholes to exact a return have been closing also. I know you guys are itchy trigger fingers on INADs but the couple times I ever tried, I had hoops to jump through to demonstrate how the damage affected the value. Many here swear you just file any arbitrary reason and the return moves through (and sellers here have cried when the buyer just changed his mind) but if we remove this new authenticity service and ebay themselves were to just make all sales final on cards, as in no INADs on sports cards anymore. Then you get a pile of raw banged up cards as the net result, was it all worth it due to the principal of not bowing to the mandatory service?

It's not perfect just like the grading companies, but the final alternative of just making sales final and you leave the card no matter the condition arrived in could make it rougher. Doesn't matter if you flee to FB or here, too many sellers swear there card is mint+ when it is not. I've seen this ebay service actually find stuff in a new purchase you would not be happy with. And yes, then you rebuttal with "but I want to make that decision in-hand, not them" and of course not eventually having to pay for it on top of.

Not really following a lot of this, so apologies if Im misreading, but if you mean Ebay would do final sales without the AG program, that simply wont happen. You need a 3rd party intermediator for the concept of final sale. Otherwise someone can sell a 50k Jordan card, send a common 1988 topps base, and the buyer then cannot return for INAD because sale is final. That wouldnt work.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

For (1), since these are authenticators from CSG handling your card, and not some random guy (which would be the case without the program- your end buyer- who handles it and then has the option, up to 3 days later, to file INAD), Im not really concerned. Imo the chances of a professional authenticator/grader messing up a card are much, much less than some buyer attempting shenanigans wanting to return a card (which you hear about all the time on ebay).

The thing is, even more so than with PSA, you have no idea whether or not the "graders" from CSG are in fact qualified....in fact, given that grading cards is not exactly a hugely popular job, they may in fact be pretty close to some "random guy off the street".

It's not like well-trained professional sports-card graders are growing on trees....we have no idea what level of training these "graders" receive and/or what their qualifications are.

There are quite a few people on these boards who I would trust more than some random guy from CSG....

[chris_ac]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

Not really following a lot of this, so apologies if Im misreading, but if you mean Ebay would do final sales without the AG program, that simply wont happen. You need a 3rd party intermediator for the concept of final sale. Otherwise someone can sell a 50k Jordan card, send a common 1988 topps base, and the buyer then cannot return for INAD because sale is final. That wouldnt work.

Yes they would keep the INAD claim process but in a world where they have to be the intermediary, then all possible deceit excuses need to removed to justify any internal authentication claim/guarantee (even those do not technically exist anymore). The example you use of the ole switch-a-roo, ebay could still make sales final and when you claim the item is wrong item they tell you to file a police report for fraud. I know your cc company can help you file chargebacks for the extremes but I just had to clear a purchase with my cc for an ebay purchase and the suspicious safety net kept kicking in after I actually talked to a live person 3 times to say the buy was legit. Point is, ebay could tell you to handle it and not their problem anymore. I've seen multiple examples of the wrong card received and the seller (and ebay kept the money) and you are told to involve the police which quite frankly is a joke. Doubly worse due to the pandemic, getting your local PD to help with a stolen sports card, much less outside your state, is next 0.0000001% of their priorities. Next could be a class-action against ebay stating they are complicit in this fraud but has anyone had the money/lawyers to actually do that yet?

This thread involves the angst over this service but removing and telling ebay to do what then? Very little biz decisions/money-making "features" use rationale or logic hence us individuals in this thread going why, why, why and the "I'm staying away" talking points. If you can venture for your collection in-person without ebay or find your wishlist on FB etc. That's great. But to keep on topic to ebay and this service that we all assume is here to stay, it has some qualities that I've seen work while the bad stories will always show out. Just like the TPG's as echoed already.

There are some on this forum who would like truly final sales on sports cards but yes full audience retail requires some sort of way to get your money back in the legit case of wrong item or real damage before first use. But generally not required either depending your shopping choices and place you live.

[DynaEtch]

I agree it looks like the AG program is here to stay, and if someone still wants to use eBay, they are simply stuck with it, so kind of a moot point.

In terms of removing INAD, that won’t happen without the Authenticity Guarantee, EBay’s money back guarantee for not just trading cards, but most categories, has been around for some time, and isn’t changing. It’s not just switch-a-roos, which alone are enough to make the INAD needed, but also condition issues etc. Its not practical to require buyers to have to file police reports for every chipped corner or unmentioned indentation on a baseball card. If eBay somehow got rid of the AG program, which I don’t think will happen anytime soon, it would presumably go back to regular INAD claims. They wouldn’t get rid of that. Although it does tie up their claim/return handling department with all the INAD claims that happen- one of the reasons the AG program was created in the first place. It streamlines a lot of that and takes out some of the nonsense.

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by mfw13

The thing is, even more so than with PSA, you have no idea whether or not the "graders" from CSG are in fact qualified....in fact, given that grading cards is not exactly a hugely popular job, they may in fact be pretty close to some "random guy off the street".

It's not like well-trained professional sports-card graders are growing on trees....we have no idea what level of training these "graders" receive and/or what their qualifications are.

There are quite a few people on these boards who I would trust more than some random guy from CSG....

We can agree to disagree. I just don’t see much evidence at all of CSG authenticators messing up cards, whereas I do know there are plenty of stories of buyers filing claims for return for bogus reasons. I’m not convinced that CSG is damaging cards when authenticating to the point of it being any significant risk to consider. Without them, you are shipping to a buyer, who could certainly damage the card just the same.

My overall stance- I feel much more comfortable as a seller selling with AG for a high dollar card. I would not opt out of this as a seller, because of the extra protection it provides.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

I agree it looks like the AG program is here to stay, and if someone still wants to use eBay, they are simply stuck with it, so kind of a moot point.

I’m not stuck with anything.

[CaptSpaulding]

I cannot wait to hear how supportive buyers are the the AG Program once they will be footing the bill. If cards take the same path that watches took, the fee will be passed onto the buyer.

Everyone loves free stuff...especially today but what about when you have to pay for it? Still love it?

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I’m not stuck with anything.

Explain?

Take it you mean you just don’t purchase expensive cards on eBay?

[pip]

Originally Posted by mfw13

The thing is, even more so than with PSA, you have no idea whether or not the "graders" from CSG are in fact qualified....in fact, given that grading cards is not exactly a hugely popular job, they may in fact be pretty close to some "random guy off the street".

It's not like well-trained professional sports-card graders are growing on trees....we have no idea what level of training these "graders" receive and/or what their qualifications are.

There are quite a few people on these boards who I would trust more than some random guy from CSG....

I'll answer this one for you. They're not. CSG's #1 grader--Andy Broome--is an incompetent fool. I know that first hand. It's not a stretch to think that those who work under him have even fewer skills than he does.

[kon jelly]

Originally Posted by pip

I'll answer this one for you. They're not. CSG's #1 grader--Andy Broome--is an incompetent fool. I know that first hand. It's not a stretch to think that those who work under him have even fewer skills than he does.

Take this with a serious grain of salt. Andy Broome was the senior vintage grader at BGS for 15+ years before he moved over to CSG. He's respected in the industry, regardless of any single opinion.

[pip]

Originally Posted by kon jelly

Take this with a serious grain of salt. Andy Broome was the senior vintage grader at BGS for 15+ years before he moved over to CSG. He's respected in the industry, regardless of any single opinion.

Respected by whom? Serious collectors? I think not. Here's a brief primer:

1. When Andy first started grading 1954 Topps baseball, he rejected them because they were all "missing" the top borders.

2. He has personally put tens of thousands of hand-cut 1960s to 1980s O-Pee-Chee hockey cards in holders with a numerical grade on them and no other notation of origin.

3. He has graded thousands of altered 1930s to 1970s vintage baseball cards as if they were legitimate. Many BVG 8s and nearly all BVG 9s from the 1950s and earlier--especially those of high value--are altered. BVG, under his watch, became the least reliable service for properly evaluating vintage.

4. I believe the very first T206 Honus Wagner graded by him was altered (rebacked).

He offered no accountability for his grades on either vintage or modern. The cacophony of errors was simply compounded:

As you’re aware, we’ve been a pretty major critic of @beckettcollect for a while now. Like all graders they aren’t perfect, but their continued unwillingness to address ongoing issues with their grading, or to communicate with collectors on any level, has seen a once great company slide down the ranks of preferred grading companies.

We first alerted you to major issues going on at BGS in mid 2020 when several fake bgs slabs hit the market. We complied lists of fake slabs to assist BGS in removing them from sale as quickly as possible, but they ignored us and others.

BGS supporters complained that we were going too hard on them. Supposed hobby leaders like Josh Luber called us out for being BGS haters and blocked us.

It’s been over 2 years since that time, and BGS have continued to close its eyes and ears to their issues in the hope that they would just go away. They haven’t.

As a result, they’ve fallen to the 4th most used grading service in the industry. The market has also spoken: you can regularly buy a BGS 9.5 at less than half the price of a PSA 10.

And they’re still making mistakes which they don’t take accountability for. Take the once highly desired Super Raves and Thunder Raves cards. BGS has destroyed the collectibility of this card as almost all of them graded by BGS are fake. We’ve been working with @90swax on these and we have only ever seen two copies of the Michael Jordan Thunder Rave card graded by BGS that was real.

The BGS fakes continue to show up in auctions, we report them to the relevant auction house, the auction house sends them back to BGS for review, and BGS doubles down by saying they’re real.

Accountability is a big word in our hobby, and BGS is distinctly lacking in this department. As a counterpoint, both PSA and SGC have also incorrectly graded fake cards, but when informed of their mistakes, they have paid the owners out.

The buck has to stop somewhere, and it looks like it has to stop with collectors. Collectors need to stop using BGS unless and until they get their head out of the sand and start treating collectors with some respect.

Source: https://www.instagram.com/p/CfrrCYuh22r/

[cardsin47]

Well again, on the Buyers side ( I’ve been selling very little ) - anything or people that come between the seller and me is a very unwelcome layer of additional risk. Risk of lost in the Mail, risk of damaged in the Mail, risk of theft from the Mail, and the big one - risk of authenticity “expert” mishandling leading to damage - I only buy raw if buying singles

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pip

Respected by whom? Serious collectors? I think not. Here's a brief primer:

1. When Andy first started grading 1954 Topps baseball, he rejected them because they were all "missing" the top borders.

2. He has personally put tens of thousands of hand-cut 1960s to 1980s O-Pee-Chee hockey cards in holders with a numerical grade on them and no other notation of origin.

3. He has graded thousands of altered 1930s to 1970s vintage baseball cards as if they were legitimate. Many BVG 8s and nearly all BVG 9s from the 1950s and earlier--especially those of high value--are altered. BVG, under his watch, became the least reliable service for properly evaluating vintage.

4. I believe the very first T206 Honus Wagner graded by him was altered (rebacked).

He offered no accountability for his grades on either vintage or modern. The cacophony of errors was simply compounded:



Source: https://www.instagram.com/p/CfrrCYuh22r/

Yikes pip. That does not read well. LOL. How much of Beckett's misses, of which I know there have been many in the BVG realm, were under Mark Anderson when he was head grader? Not trying to exonerate Andy. Personally he has been good to me with slabbing issues that even SGC would not bother doing the research on and the few times I have submitted ordinary vintage I have found the grades to be pretty accurate. as for his ability to detect alterations, I cannot speak to that and you clearly have a vantage point I don't.

And lastly, are you seeing horror shows in holders on the vintage side with CSG? I am not looking that closely but what I have seen seemed pretty solid. I was actually surprised.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

Explain?

Take it you mean you just don’t purchase expensive cards on eBay?

I wouldn’t call $250/$350 expensive, but I avoid them now. Don’t sell them either. I’ve passed on plenty of cards I would have otherwise won at auction. Seller’s loss. The great thing about the hobby today is that there are so many other places to buy cards. Spending very little at eBay now, and more with actual auction houses.

[pip]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Yikes pip. That does not read well. LOL. How much of Beckett's misses, of which I know there have been many in the BVG realm, were under Mark Anderson when he was head grader? Not trying to exonerate Andy. Personally he has been good to me with slabbing issues that even SGC would not bother doing the research on and the few times I have submitted ordinary vintage I have found the grades to be pretty accurate. as for his ability to detect alterations, I cannot speak to that and you clearly have a vantage point I don't.

And lastly, are you seeing horror shows in holders on the vintage side with CSG? I am not looking that closely but what I have seen seemed pretty solid. I was actually surprised.

The bottom line is that Andy can't grade. As far as TPG graders go, he's below average.

I wouldn't submit vintage to CSG since I don't think they know what they're doing (I have some direct experiences here and I would put their accuracy at maybe 60%). Their modern graders are similarly inconsistent, based on what I've read on these forums.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pip

The bottom line is that Andy can't grade. As far as TPG graders go, he's below average.

I wouldn't submit vintage to CSG since I don't think they know what they're doing (I have some direct experiences here and I would put their accuracy at maybe 60%). Their modern graders are similarly inconsistent, based on what I've read on these forums.

How about that for a vote of confidence! Understood. Appreciate the perspective.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by pip

Respected by whom? Serious collectors? I think not. Here's a brief primer:

1. When Andy first started grading 1954 Topps baseball, he rejected them because they were all "missing" the top borders.

2. He has personally put tens of thousands of hand-cut 1960s to 1980s O-Pee-Chee hockey cards in holders with a numerical grade on them and no other notation of origin.

3. He has graded thousands of altered 1930s to 1970s vintage baseball cards as if they were legitimate. Many BVG 8s and nearly all BVG 9s from the 1950s and earlier--especially those of high value--are altered. BVG, under his watch, became the least reliable service for properly evaluating vintage.

4. I believe the very first T206 Honus Wagner graded by him was altered (rebacked).

He offered no accountability for his grades on either vintage or modern. The cacophony of errors was simply compounded:



Source: https://www.instagram.com/p/CfrrCYuh22r/

You literally just described PSA. lol

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[Giroux]

Had a recent purchase fail authentication for condition. Not sure what the exact issue was.

[Bambino22]

Originally Posted by Giroux

Had a recent purchase fail authentication for condition. Not sure what the exact issue was.

That is frustrating. Hopefully they can actually help if you contact them. Seams pretty clear they have not been giving buyers options to still buy the card when they reject for dumb reasons.

Don't think I'm being nitpicky.

- they say "here are the details". But provide no details on your case. Better to say "here is our general response"
- they state they reject for damaged packaging. They lead with that as first reason. That's ridiculous. They repackage it anyway, who cares if damaged packaging.
- they are basically putting down the seller you bought from, asking you to buy from a different seller.

[DynaEtch]

Doesnt have to be condition, could be anything.

A long shot, but the item specifics do say Graded: No, but they also say Professional Grader: Beckett (BGS), which is incorrect as it's a raw card. So maybe that could be the reason.

Or condition/authentic issue, cant really say.

[KhalDrogo]

Probably the BGS part. Can’t have the buyer upset that he gets a raw card when the description says it’s a BGS slab.

[Brobocop]

Sold a Red Refractor from one of the Japanese baseball packs I got with the MegaMix box. The card sold for a whopping $.01. I had to send it to the authenticators. Amazing.