Keeper Champions- Official Fantasy Thread - Page 24

nateyad · 01-09-2019, 03:45 PM

I'll say apply to next year's draft.

Ray27Ray52 · 01-09-2019, 06:11 PM

As mentioned before I will abstain from voting on the draft order. I'm happy that I have the 1st pick as I said before though I don't think I deserve it.

I've been on the line with Mike Trout and he is looking forward to being a member of my squad. He is just waiting on word from the rest of the league.

ksmith31 · 01-09-2019, 07:06 PM

adopt later

Cornerstore · 01-10-2019, 05:30 PM

Next year. Because im going to have the last pick next year in that case and I like winning chips and picking at the turn

Hollywood42 · 01-11-2019, 02:09 PM

ESPN is back already! I've reactivated the league for 2019. Set it to not allow FA adds until after our draft. Any trades can now be handled directly through ESPN now. We'll stick to our timeline of figuring out details and setting a keeper date and drafting

Speaking of, it sounds like most people want the new draft order rule to apply after this season. As a result, our draft order for 2019 is as follows:

1. Ray27Ray52
2. Firerunner4
3. Diem
4. Viking6
5. Poonchka
6. seanbros
7. Hollywood42
8. nateyad
9. 7jacfire
10. Cornerstore
11. ksemmel
12. ksmith

Next on the docket is to discuss if we want to adjust our scoring system so that pitchers and hitters are more evenly weighted. It turned out to be much more slanted towards the pitchers than I intended. I'll post more details about what exactly this would look like when I'm home tonight, but one possible easy fix would be to make runs scored and RBIs each worth 1.5 points each. Doesn't have too big an impact on things, but it'd even it out. I'll provide some much more in depth details later on with what this would look like so we can get a better idea

This is also something we can plan to change after the 2019 season, since I know lots of people, myself included, have already made big trades for keepers with our current scoring in mind. But I'm guessing most people would like the scoring to be adjusted at some point

Ray27Ray52 · 01-11-2019, 05:34 PM

I'd like to see Runs and RBI's change to 1.5 points each. I'd also like to see K's for hitters be only -.5 points instead of a full point. I think that would balance the scales without changing the dynamic to a hitting league.

Hollywood42 · 01-11-2019, 05:43 PM

I'll definitely run the numbers, but messing with strikeouts too much can start changing things pretty significantly fast. Working on some graphs and such now

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray27Ray52

I'd like to see Runs and RBI's change to 1.5 points each. I'd also like to see K's for hitters be only -.5 points instead of a full point. I think that would balance the scales without changing the dynamic to a hitting league.

Hollywood42 · 01-11-2019, 07:19 PM

Ok, here's 2 examples. I plotted the top 250 hitters and top 250 pitchers against each other. You can see the charts here- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...71&single=true

The first chart is using our current scoring system. As you can see, pitchers are significantly more valuable until around the top 25 mark where they break even and from there batters are slightly more valuable

The second chart is using our current scoring system except hits and RBIs (both for hitters) are both worth 1.5 points each instead of 1 each. This is a lot closer at the top, but the break even point is about the top 10 mark, at which point hitters start to become significantly more valuable than pitchers

I dunno, the first breakdown makes a lot more sense to me. I'm wondering if our scoring system isn't the problem, it's more that people haven't adjusted to it yet. There's a few people that recognized that the top pitchers are ultra valuable and adjusted accordingly, while others had pitching staffs that were pretty iffy. If we switch to the second system, it looks like pitchers are going to be completely devalued, and then we have the same issue but the other way around

Honestly, I think the first breakdown gets it pretty close to what it should be. The top few pitchers have to be worth a ton, because after the first 5 or so, there's a huge dropoff. If we make the top pitchers worth the same as the top hitters, pitchers are going to be completely worthless after the top 20 or so. But if we bite the bullet and let the top few pitchers be worth a ton, the breakdown is pretty much as it should be. And honestly, that reflects the real world pretty well too- there's a few pitchers that are the elite of the elite, but after them there's a fairly substantial dropoff, and high quality pitching exists in far fewer numbers compared to high quality hitting

I think this is just something the league will have to adjust to. TBH it shouldn't take long for things to settle in as well. If everyone knows the top few pitchers are super valuable, they'll start being taken in the 1st and 2nd rounds and get tossed back into the player pool nearly every year

This all makes sense, honestly. This is pretty much the same scoring I've used in several different leagues, and while pitching has been valuable, this felt like pitching was wayyy valuable. I think it might just be a couple teams that took advantage of it while others didn't realize it which made the issue look worse than it was

Ray27Ray52 · 01-11-2019, 07:58 PM

Good stuff Hollywood. What about if instead of adding points to hitting you were instead to take away a small percentage for pitching. Would that even things up? Like say, and I am just making up numbers here, IP are 1 point and you were to make it a .5 point. Would that do anything?

Hollywood42 · 01-11-2019, 08:16 PM

I'm guessing that'll be too drastic a difference, but I'll run it and see what happens. IP is one of the biggest sources of points for pitchers, so even a minor change will probably have a big effect

The problem is that any way to lessen the value of the tier 1A pitchers is also going to have a significant impact on all the other pitchers as well. Depth pitchers compared to depth hitters is actually balanced pretty well as is. Depth pitchers aren't quite as valuable, but that makes sense because there's more decent hitters than decent pitchers. I don't really want to lessen the value of depth pitchers any more because then hitters are going to become much more valuable, and pretty much all teams are going to be stuck throwing crap pitchers out there and hoping for the best

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray27Ray52

Good stuff Hollywood. What about if instead of adding points to hitting you were instead to take away a small percentage for pitching. Would that even things up? Like say, and I am just making up numbers here, IP are 1 point and you were to make it a .5 point. Would that do anything?

Edit- We current used 1 out recorded = 1 point for pitchers, I changed it to be 1 out recorded = 0.75 points, and made that chart and added it to my sheet. Should be able to see it at the link above. Might need a few minutes to refresh. But with that one, the top hitter and top pitcher are about equal, but hitters become significantly more valuable than pitchers almost immediately. This change basically ruins the values of all pitchers

ksmith31 · 01-11-2019, 08:31 PM

Sounds like we keep it the same and the league pays better attention to the scoring system.

Ray27Ray52 · 01-11-2019, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollywood42

I'm guessing that'll be too drastic a difference, but I'll run it and see what happens. IP is one of the biggest sources of points for pitchers, so even a minor change will probably have a big effect

The problem is that any way to lessen the value of the tier 1A pitchers is also going to have a significant impact on all the other pitchers as well. Depth pitchers compared to depth hitters is actually balanced pretty well as is. Depth pitchers aren't quite as valuable, but that makes sense because there's more decent hitters than decent pitchers. I don't really want to lessen the value of depth pitchers any more because then hitters are going to become much more valuable, and pretty much all teams are going to be stuck throwing crap pitchers out there and hoping for the best

Edit- We current used 1 out recorded = 1 point for pitchers, I changed it to be 1 out recorded = 0.75 points, and made that chart and added it to my sheet. Should be able to see it at the link above. Might need a few minutes to refresh. But with that one, the top hitter and top pitcher are about equal, but hitters become significantly more valuable than pitchers almost immediately. This change basically ruins the values of all pitchers

I'm convinced. Leave it as it is. Nice work Hollywood. Appreciate you going above and beyond.

Hollywood42 · 01-11-2019, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray27Ray52

I'm convinced. Leave it as it is. Nice work Hollywood. Appreciate you going above and beyond.

Hollywood42 · 01-11-2019, 08:49 PM

It might take a year or two, but it'll even out. Especially once some of the better keeper-valued pitchers sift down and have to get tossed back into the pool. But I think even this year it won't seem so bad now that people know how exactly it works. Like I said, several other leagues I'm in use something pretty similar to what we have here, and while you do need to be aware of how you're balancing your hitters and pitchers, it works well

Ray27Ray52 · 01-11-2019, 08:51 PM

I'm now strongly considering going with a pitcher for my 1st pick. Argh, so many decisions.

Hollywood42 · 01-11-2019, 08:52 PM

It's a tough balance. Top couple pitchers are worth a lot, but they break down so much more frequently than most hitters. Plus even the top pitchers can ruin your week with one bad outing, whereas someone like Trout will almost certainly get you a safe 20+ points per week

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray27Ray52

I'm now strongly considering going with a pitcher for my 1st pick. Argh, so many decisions.

Ray27Ray52 · 01-11-2019, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollywood42

It's a tough balance. Top couple pitchers are worth a lot, but they break down so much more frequently than most hitters. Plus even the top pitchers can ruin your week with one bad outing, whereas someone like Trout will almost certainly get you a safe 20+ points per week

I hear that. Trout is the safe pick as well as probably Scherzer. I have only done periphery research so far. But I'm gearing up here soon to make my final decisions on how I want my ideal roster to look.

Hollywood42 · 01-11-2019, 09:13 PM

Actually, one thing we could do if we wanted to is just change quality starts from +5 to +4. That'll knock pitchers down a little bit without destroying the value of depth pitchers since the best pitchers will be getting 23-38 quality starts while pitchers closer to the 30-40 range will probably be getting closer to 15 QS

This could actually be exactly what we're looking for. It'd knock off 20-30 points from the top pitchers but only 10-15 from the lesser pitchers. Plus it's a pretty small change that wouldn't impact things too much or make it very difficult at all for people to adjust

I've added the plot of hitting points as is vs. pitching with QS being worth 4 points instead of 5, and it's not all that different from our current system. I added our current pitching points to the same plot as well so it's easier to see the difference. It's subtle, but I think it accomplishes what we're looking to do. This one would have my vote if we're going to make a change

Ray27Ray52 · 01-11-2019, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollywood42

Actually, one thing we could do if we wanted to is just change quality starts from +5 to +4. That'll knock pitchers down a little bit without destroying the value of depth pitchers since the best pitchers will be getting 23-38 quality starts while pitchers closer to the 30-40 range will probably be getting closer to 15 QS

This could actually be exactly what we're looking for. It'd knock off 20-30 points from the top pitchers but only 10-15 from the lesser pitchers. Plus it's a pretty small change that wouldn't impact things too much or make it very difficult at all for people to adjust

I've added the plot of hitting points as is vs. pitching with QS being worth 4 points instead of 5, and it's not all that different from our current system. I added our current pitching points to the same plot as well so it's easier to see the difference. It's subtle, but I think it accomplishes what we're looking to do. This one would have my vote if we're going to make a change

Boom. That gets my vote as well.

nateyad · 01-11-2019, 09:38 PM

I will give the change from +5 to +4 my vote as well.

ksmith31 · 01-12-2019, 02:17 PM

Can we see the draft from 2018? I can't remember where I picked some of my players last year for keeper purposes.

Hollywood42 · 01-12-2019, 03:32 PM

On the league home page in the upper right of the middle section, there's a dropdown where you can select a season. Change that to 2018 and then the draft recap is under the league tab

Are we doing where someone was originally drafted no matter if they were added or dropped, or if some was drafted in, say the 20th and then dropped and later re-added, do they now cost a 15th round as a FA add? I can't see the transactions on a player anymore so that aspect will be difficult to dig up

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksmith31

Can we see the draft from 2018? I can't remember where I picked some of my players last year for keeper purposes.

ksmith31 · 01-12-2019, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollywood42

On the league home page in the upper right of the middle section, there's a dropdown where you can select a season. Change that to 2018 and then the draft recap is under the league tab

Are we doing where someone was originally drafted no matter if they were added or dropped, or if some was drafted in, say the 20th and then dropped and later re-added, do they now cost a 15th round as a FA add? I can't see the transactions on a player anymore so that aspect will be difficult to dig up

I was under the impression if they got drafted that is their keeper value regardless if they got dropped and I am pretty sure we discussed this and agreed to this on an earlier page.

Ray27Ray52 · 01-12-2019, 06:24 PM

I thought it was the opposite. LOL

If they were dropped they hold a Round 15 value.

ksmith31 · 01-12-2019, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray27Ray52

I thought it was the opposite. LOL

If they were dropped they hold a Round 15 value.

No we negated this to prevent any tom foolery of dropping Trout (for example) and someone picking him up and now getting him as a 15th rounder.

01-10-2019, 05:30 PM	#579
Cornerstore Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: King of Prussia, PA Posts: 5,060 chaagen333 cornerstore	Next year. Because im going to have the last pick next year in that case and I like winning chips and picking at the turn __________________ Go check out my COMC page - lots of great cards/deals out there! RIP PAPAJIM Follow me on IG Chris_Cards_And_More

01-11-2019, 02:09 PM	#580
Hollywood42 Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Minnesota Posts: 39,505 Hollywood42	ESPN is back already! I've reactivated the league for 2019. Set it to not allow FA adds until after our draft. Any trades can now be handled directly through ESPN now. We'll stick to our timeline of figuring out details and setting a keeper date and drafting Speaking of, it sounds like most people want the new draft order rule to apply after this season. As a result, our draft order for 2019 is as follows: 1. Ray27Ray52 2. Firerunner4 3. Diem 4. Viking6 5. Poonchka 6. seanbros 7. Hollywood42 8. nateyad 9. 7jacfire 10. Cornerstore 11. ksemmel 12. ksmith Next on the docket is to discuss if we want to adjust our scoring system so that pitchers and hitters are more evenly weighted. It turned out to be much more slanted towards the pitchers than I intended. I'll post more details about what exactly this would look like when I'm home tonight, but one possible easy fix would be to make runs scored and RBIs each worth 1.5 points each. Doesn't have too big an impact on things, but it'd even it out. I'll provide some much more in depth details later on with what this would look like so we can get a better idea This is also something we can plan to change after the 2019 season, since I know lots of people, myself included, have already made big trades for keepers with our current scoring in mind. But I'm guessing most people would like the scoring to be adjusted at some point __________________ Collecting the Twins All my PC wants/haves available at hollywood42cards.com

01-11-2019, 07:19 PM	#583
Hollywood42 Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Minnesota Posts: 39,505 Hollywood42	Ok, here's 2 examples. I plotted the top 250 hitters and top 250 pitchers against each other. You can see the charts here- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...71&single=true The first chart is using our current scoring system. As you can see, pitchers are significantly more valuable until around the top 25 mark where they break even and from there batters are slightly more valuable The second chart is using our current scoring system except hits and RBIs (both for hitters) are both worth 1.5 points each instead of 1 each. This is a lot closer at the top, but the break even point is about the top 10 mark, at which point hitters start to become significantly more valuable than pitchers I dunno, the first breakdown makes a lot more sense to me. I'm wondering if our scoring system isn't the problem, it's more that people haven't adjusted to it yet. There's a few people that recognized that the top pitchers are ultra valuable and adjusted accordingly, while others had pitching staffs that were pretty iffy. If we switch to the second system, it looks like pitchers are going to be completely devalued, and then we have the same issue but the other way around Honestly, I think the first breakdown gets it pretty close to what it should be. The top few pitchers have to be worth a ton, because after the first 5 or so, there's a huge dropoff. If we make the top pitchers worth the same as the top hitters, pitchers are going to be completely worthless after the top 20 or so. But if we bite the bullet and let the top few pitchers be worth a ton, the breakdown is pretty much as it should be. And honestly, that reflects the real world pretty well too- there's a few pitchers that are the elite of the elite, but after them there's a fairly substantial dropoff, and high quality pitching exists in far fewer numbers compared to high quality hitting I think this is just something the league will have to adjust to. TBH it shouldn't take long for things to settle in as well. If everyone knows the top few pitchers are super valuable, they'll start being taken in the 1st and 2nd rounds and get tossed back into the player pool nearly every year This all makes sense, honestly. This is pretty much the same scoring I've used in several different leagues, and while pitching has been valuable, this felt like pitching was wayyy valuable. I think it might just be a couple teams that took advantage of it while others didn't realize it which made the issue look worse than it was __________________ Collecting the Twins All my PC wants/haves available at hollywood42cards.com

01-11-2019, 08:49 PM	#589
Hollywood42 Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Minnesota Posts: 39,505 Hollywood42	It might take a year or two, but it'll even out. Especially once some of the better keeper-valued pitchers sift down and have to get tossed back into the pool. But I think even this year it won't seem so bad now that people know how exactly it works. Like I said, several other leagues I'm in use something pretty similar to what we have here, and while you do need to be aware of how you're balancing your hitters and pitchers, it works well __________________ Collecting the Twins All my PC wants/haves available at hollywood42cards.com

01-11-2019, 09:13 PM	#593
Hollywood42 Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Minnesota Posts: 39,505 Hollywood42	Actually, one thing we could do if we wanted to is just change quality starts from +5 to +4. That'll knock pitchers down a little bit without destroying the value of depth pitchers since the best pitchers will be getting 23-38 quality starts while pitchers closer to the 30-40 range will probably be getting closer to 15 QS This could actually be exactly what we're looking for. It'd knock off 20-30 points from the top pitchers but only 10-15 from the lesser pitchers. Plus it's a pretty small change that wouldn't impact things too much or make it very difficult at all for people to adjust I've added the plot of hitting points as is vs. pitching with QS being worth 4 points instead of 5, and it's not all that different from our current system. I added our current pitching points to the same plot as well so it's easier to see the difference. It's subtle, but I think it accomplishes what we're looking to do. This one would have my vote if we're going to make a change __________________ Collecting the Twins All my PC wants/haves available at hollywood42cards.com

01-09-2019, 03:45 PM	#576
nateyad Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: South Central, PA Posts: 3,116	I'll say apply to next year's draft.

01-09-2019, 06:11 PM	#577
Ray27Ray52 Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Posts: 22,676	As mentioned before I will abstain from voting on the draft order. I'm happy that I have the 1st pick as I said before though I don't think I deserve it. I've been on the line with Mike Trout and he is looking forward to being a member of my squad. He is just waiting on word from the rest of the league.

01-09-2019, 07:06 PM	#578
ksmith31 Banned Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 2,568	adopt later

01-11-2019, 05:34 PM	#581
Ray27Ray52 Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Posts: 22,676	I'd like to see Runs and RBI's change to 1.5 points each. I'd also like to see K's for hitters be only -.5 points instead of a full point. I think that would balance the scales without changing the dynamic to a hitting league.

01-11-2019, 07:58 PM	#584
Ray27Ray52 Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Posts: 22,676	Good stuff Hollywood. What about if instead of adding points to hitting you were instead to take away a small percentage for pitching. Would that even things up? Like say, and I am just making up numbers here, IP are 1 point and you were to make it a .5 point. Would that do anything?

01-11-2019, 08:31 PM	#586
ksmith31 Banned Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 2,568	Sounds like we keep it the same and the league pays better attention to the scoring system.

01-11-2019, 08:51 PM	#590
Ray27Ray52 Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Posts: 22,676	I'm now strongly considering going with a pitcher for my 1st pick. Argh, so many decisions.

01-11-2019, 09:38 PM	#595
nateyad Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: South Central, PA Posts: 3,116	I will give the change from +5 to +4 my vote as well.

01-12-2019, 02:17 PM	#596
ksmith31 Banned Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 2,568	Can we see the draft from 2018? I can't remember where I picked some of my players last year for keeper purposes.

01-12-2019, 06:24 PM	#599
Ray27Ray52 Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Posts: 22,676	I thought it was the opposite. LOL If they were dropped they hold a Round 15 value.