LeBron market falling?

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

You want facts: 6-0. Jordan always found a way for his team to win. He was the consummate teammate that got results. People wanted to play with him.

There’s a problem with another fact: 4-6. The most individual talent in history but couldn’t create a team to win around him, could only join other talent. Lexcuses, lexcuses.

The least you could do is use honest comparisons. On its face, 6-0 vs. 4-6 isn't an honest comparison because we all know that not all else is equal.

Try something that isn't specious on its face. Try an argument a Bill James might use, free of all the partisan BS

Perhaps the best we can do is to use a thought experiment: does Bron placed in the same situation as MJ come away with 6 rings, or 4 rings with vice versa. Does MJ choke away a ring in 2011? About the only thing we declare with any degree of certainty is the '11 choke, since MJ didn't do playoff chokes. MJ also didn't do Shaqtin' highlight reels.

Those two things right there would be tie-breakers if all else were equal. They might end up breaking toward MJ even if Bron was in the lead up until then. Those are key blemishes on a GOAT candidacy. I don't know what MJ's blemishes are, other than less competitive era than today (which he can't help). He did get a lot better support in Chicago than Bron got in Cleveland in the 1st run there. That is definitely not all else being equal.

If I were doing a draft of these players, I'd ask why I should take Bron at #1 with his blemishes given the resume of Mike. Otherwise I don't know how I'd separate them, and I don't know if anyone else does, either.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Braswell10

It’s not black and white though. The Warriors and Spurs teams were better than any team from the 90s.

These threads are just repeating the same ideas over and over again. I’m convinced you guys just like to see your post count increase.

it is true, anyone holding the 0-2 Finals record against the Durant Warriors against Bron is a seriously screwed-up arguer who shouldn't be taken seriously about anything

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Bron turned Kyrie into a head case and AD into a zombie.

I take it you don't want any credibility

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

You can’t defend the actions of a millennial!

[boxbuster7]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

#notatruelaker

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Buyers2Block

Also, lets look at the 90's -- and the Finals opponents MJ faced:

1. RAINMAN -- go look him up. There is NOBODY in the NBA today, in the 6'10" range, as athletic as Shawn Kemp. For those who know, you know.

2. The GLOVE -- one of the All-Time greats in Defense - HOFer.

3. Barkley, Drexler, Magic, Malone, Stockton, etc. - were as a skilled (Magic, Stockton) and/or athletic as anyone in the history of the game.

I think if one were to compare levels of competition, it might make sense to look at how stacked the '92 Dream Team was, and compare it with a hypothetical Dream Team today. We should also eliminate barriers such as nationality when constructing a full "Dream Team of a given time," so that Hakeem could unironically make the Basketball Dream Team for 1992.

In '92 the Dream Team including legacy celebrity legends would include Bird. You get Hakeem, DRob and Ewing as Centers. Magic Michael Stockton Drexler as guards. Faceplant Chuck Pippen Bird and Mullin at Forward

Should we do a hypothetical Dream Team for Bron's age-28 prime or for today? If it's today, the Dream Team looks something like

Centers - Jokic Embiid AD (one healthy starter and 2 glassy backups, hmm)
Guards - Luka Steph SGA Ant?
Forwards - Giannis Tatum Bron KD Kawhi

Seems like the '24 Dream Deam draws from a larger pool of talent while also being more injury-prone

My key takeaway from the "we done with the 90s" argument is that the scrubs in MJ's day were not as good as today's scrubs, but scrubs weren't a key factor in who he faced in the Finals. He faced a number of Dream Teamers in the Finals, and was teamed with one of them. I don't see how the quality of scrubs affected much the '97 and '98 Finals (where the opposing team had two Dream Teamers of their own, and Elo ratings of ~1750 or better).

Which of the two Dream Teams would win in a matchup? We'd have to assume that some combo of Troel AD and Kawhi would be missing some playing time. The original Dream Team had a basically-retired Bird. But it would have been the key stars that most determined the outcomes - MJ then, Joker today (or Embiid if he had full playing time). And some combination of 3-4 others I'm guessing - the 1st team all-NBA, MVP-balloting guys

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

You can explain that to your homeboy then. It's plain as day for me that Steve Kerr isn't in the same stratosphere as those other guys. Blue obviously thinks different because what would be the point in saying Jordan had the luxury of playing with a guy that could win a 3 point contest in practice? How can anyone say with a straight face that Steve Kerr was the greatest shooter of the 90s because of percentages, yet averaged 6 ppg for his career as a bench player? That's beyond stupid, but it's exactly what he meant because he asked if lebron played with Curry. As if in some world Kerr and Curry are in the same category...

when I think of '90s volume shooters, Reggie Miller comes to mind

[GOATcards]

Gretzky >

Originally Posted by eastbayak

Montana > Brady > Mahomes > PippenJordan > LeBron

/Thread

Fixed it for you

?

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

NN

You think I read this trash thread?

[rhigh2390]

Another lebron coach bites the dust...

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...ns-sources-say

[KhalDrogo]

Now that Darvin is out, LeBron will be able to win another title.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

Another lebron coach bites the dust...

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...ns-sources-say

It’s not fair, he never gets a hall of fame coach that wins rings for him, waaaaahhhhhh!!!

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Now that Darvin is out, LeBron will be able to win another title.

Paul Pierce was saying lebron's coaches last about 2.6 years, so he expected Ham to be gone lol

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

Paul Pierce was saying lebron's coaches last about 2.6 years, so he expected Ham to be gone lol

There’s a reason his nickname is “coach killer”!

[6celtics33]

But Spo and Lue are looked at as much better coaches now that he’s not weighing them down. So good luck in your future Ham.

[hermanotarjeta]

Who will be the next sacrificial victim?

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

Bahahaha. An afterthought to who?

So now it's

LeBron has more stats
LeBron is playing well at 39
LeBron is more thought of

Lol.

What's next. LeBron has more endorsements.

Talk about pathetic. Some of you guys clutch at the weirdest stuff.



We can tell you're hurting from this one.

Suck it.

WOW!!!

Your the crazy one. Need some Xanax, maybe some cimbalta? Maybe some valium?


Timmy is a beast, one of a kind no doubt.

But he doesn't move the needle.

Sorry you are so upset!

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Your lack of a #nodiddy clause makes me think this is more a veiled Skype invite vs. metaphoric vitriol.

His Baldness is forever the GOATse in my eyes.


But your level of persistent angst over an arbitrary fossil is both hilarious and heartwarming.

see my previous post. He sincerely needs psych meds.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

Brady > Jordan > LeBron

/Thread

YUP. 100%

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

I watched half of MJs career and all of lebrons. MJ>lebron. The anti lebron crowd on here are just too inept to articulate why. They are too emotional and use bad faith arguments to tear down lebron while ignoring critiques or facts surrounding mjs career. Lebron is the second best player I’ve ever seen and his resume puts him in that conversation. The gap is very close and arguments can be reasonably had that lebron is a better overall player and everything he has accomplished can be compared to mjs resume. It’s a reasonable debate at this point but mjs dominance outweighs lebrons imo.

It’s just how the anti lebron crowd frames their argument that I take issue with and used to waste my time with back and forths. You will never win debating with a true hater. They are irrational, emotional, and will spin anything into a negative because that’s who they are (they can change). That’s what I was, in a much smaller scale, with Kobe. I immaturely felt like he was a threat to mjs legacy and it caused me to miss out on a great career. Yeah I watched a ton of their games because I was a huge Shaq fan but I always had a bitter taste in my mouth watching Kobe for a large part of his career. I didn’t like lebron when he entered the league but watching the way he played the game made me change my opinion and I’m grateful I got to watch the career of a true goat of the game.

Great post. Agree.


I pity the poor haters when Lebron retires. They will go into a deep depression.

[BostonNut]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

Great post. Agree.


I pity the poor haters when Lebron retires. They will go into a deep depression.

Why?

Maybe then the flopping will start to dilute and we can get back the game we all loved growing up.

Side note, how many coaches has LeBron had in his career? It’s got to be reaching ten?

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

Why?

Maybe then the flopping will start to dilute and we can get back the game we all loved growing up.

Side note, how many coaches has LeBron had in his career? It’s got to be reaching ten?

See my previous posts.


Multiple times I've said MJ is the GOAT and IMO, it's not that close.


Lebron is flawed in many ways.


But for some reason, posters here have a massive chub against him. Why do they feel so threatened? I think TB is the GOAT, but you don't see me in the Patty threads raging against him.



edit: Anthony Davis was quoted about Darvin Ham and said "at times it doesn't look like we know what we are doing" yet, it's Lebron's fault that Ham got the ax? Maybe he was a crappy coach?


This again fits the Lebron hate narrative. Love it. He lives rent free in so many heads.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

Why?

Maybe then the flopping will start to dilute and we can get back the game we all loved growing up.

Side note, how many coaches has LeBron had in his career? It’s got to be reaching ten?

Yep.

Paul Silas
Brendan Malone
Mike Brown
Erik Spoelstra
David Blatt
Ty Lue
Luke Walton
Frank Vogel
Darvin Ham

His next head coach will be #10.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

See my previous posts.


Multiple times I've said MJ is the GOAT and IMO, it's not that close.


Lebron is flawed in many ways.


But for some reason, posters here have a massive chub against him. Why do they feel so threatened? I think TB is the GOAT, but you don't see me in the Patty threads raging against him.



edit: Anthony Davis was quoted about Darvin Ham and said "at times it doesn't look like we know what we are doing" yet, it's Lebron's fault that Ham got the ax? Maybe he was a crappy coach?
,

This again fits the Lebron hate narrative. Love it. He lives rent free in so many heads.

Mahomes is a likeable, even lovable guy. He’s humble, doesn’t have the hottest wife, and actually has some funny State Farm commercials. Plus, he’s a gracious winner and champion.

Bron is a megalomaniac, he wants so much to be loved that he tries too hard at it and it comes off as cringy. No one is threatened by Lebron, people are repulsed by him. He’s the worst qualities of a millennial.

Big difference.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

Why?

Maybe then the flopping will start to dilute and we can get back the game we all loved growing up.

Side note, how many coaches has LeBron had in his career? It’s got to be reaching ten?

I can't wait to see the back of the guy.

The temper tantrums are worse than a 3 year olds.

He's had to have had the most fired. He's the GOAT at that.