A Very Important Paypal Dispute Learning Experience

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

You guys are wasting your time. He will never concede even an inch to you.

Because I will always side on responsibility for what I sell. I just think it's very entertaining that people are trying so hard to defend selling counterfeit goods to people.

[Southpas2013]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Lol, buyers do not have to live by your rules. If they want to buy the card for whatever reason and take it out of the case they are allowed to do that. There is literally no policy in place that protects you from selling counterfeit goods because they are in PSA cases. If the card is a counterfeit the buyer can send it back to you for a full refund. Who's to say you aren't the counterfeiter? So scammers selling counterfeit PSA cards are completely protected now.

Keep defending selling counterfeit goods to people. Great look for you! Lmao.

I did not say that all. I said if it is fake then refund must happen and card confiscated so that it cannot be re-sold.

It's not my rules, it will be a rule in a court of law to prove a case either way, as a seller or buyer. In this case, the buyer has to prove the card was fake. If he has taken it out of the case then there is no way to prove to the judge that this was in fact the card he bought.

Please tell me how you can prove that the RAW Jordan card is the exact same one that was in the slabbed case? Go ahead, i'll wait.

If it is kept in the slab , there is a higher chance of proving it is the same item. Because yes someone can still make a fake slab with a fake card in there.

Best thing to do here, lesson learned for all for all of you, to protect yourself:
** If you are buying an expensive card in an old PSA label, send the entire slab to them and have them re-authenticate the card and slab and re-slab with their new labels that are supposed to be counterfeit proof. If it comes back real you're good, if it is deemed fake provide the paperwork and get your refund. Keep yourself protected .

[Blake711]

Originally Posted by Southpas2013

what is worth point? good tool to look up sales?

Here is an example. Its a pay site to search history of card sales.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=268


pgisback - you never responded to my last question. Also you keep making the accusation the card was faked and that we are okay with counterfeits. No one on here has said they were cool with counterfeits. Also its never been proven what was sent was a fake. You are simply going off what they buyer said. The op has a right to prove what he sent was legit. Its basically innocent till proven guilty. You just let the buyer be judge, juror and executioner of the OPs card. Most people think the op got screwed coming and going on this, not that we are cool with scammers selling fakes.

[Southpas2013]

Take the "L" pgis, take the "L".

[Southpas2013]

Originally Posted by Blake711

Here is an example. Its a pay site to search history of card sales.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=268

thanks man

[h00perstar34]

More I think about it Wouldn’t you be able to tell the difference with an altered slab? If he had any notion of it being a fake wouldn’t you send it into PSA and get market value for the card if they graded it being fake?

[hairyangryfella]

Originally Posted by pgisback

The guy he sold it to bought a 1986 Fleer MJ sold as authentic and received a counterfeit 1986 fleer mj. You as a seller are more responsible for determining whether or not the card in the PSA holder is authentic than the buyer. If the buyer does not care for PSA and just wants the contents, they are allowed to purchase your item and take the contents out. If he learns you sold him a counterfeit MJ, he can return it.

All I'm saying, is it doesn't surprise me the usual suspects who argue with me on everything, believe they can sell counterfeit goods to people and not be responsible for them. That doesn't surprise me at all.

STILL didn't answer my question based on your accusation, but deflect away!

My main concern here is the Pandora's Box opened by PayPal just giving a refund on a cracked out case.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Southpas2013

I did not say that all. I said if it is fake then refund must happen and card confiscated so that it cannot be re-sold.

It's not my rules, it will be a rule in a court of law to prove a case either way, as a seller or buyer. In this case, the buyer has to prove the card was fake. If he has taken it out of the case then there is no way to prove to the judge that this was in fact the card he bought.

Please tell me how you can prove that the RAW Jordan card is the exact same one that was in the slabbed case? Go ahead, i'll wait.

If it is kept in the slab , there is a higher chance of proving it is the same item. Because yes someone can still make a fake slab with a fake card in there.

Best thing to do here, lesson learned for all for all of you, to protect yourself:
** If you are buying an expensive card in an old PSA label, send the entire slab to them and have them re-authenticate the card and slab and re-slab with their new labels that are supposed to be counterfeit proof. If it comes back real you're good, if it is deemed fake provide the paperwork and get your refund. Keep yourself protected .

Buyers are not responsible for authenticating the stuff you are selling. That is your responsibility, lmao. The fact you think it's the buyers responsibility is not surprising. You do think you can sell counterfeit goods to people and not be responsible... so there's nothing else you can say that would really surprise me.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by hairyangryfella

STILL didn't answer my question based on your accusation, but deflect away!

My main concern here is the Pandora's Box opened by PayPal just giving a refund on a cracked out case.

It also opens up the door for scammers selling counterfeit goods to be protected. And luckily, buyers are allowed to return counterfeits you sell them whether they are in a case or not.

[Blake711]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Buyers are not responsible for authenticating the stuff you are selling. That is your responsibility, lmao. The fact you think it's the buyers responsibility is not surprising. You do think you can sell counterfeit goods to people and not be responsible... so there's nothing else you can say that would really surprise me.

So with your logic why can't OP just tell buyer tough sh#& I bought it from abc in 2016 go talk to him. He is the one that should have authenticated it. Where does the buck stop?

[Southpas2013]

Originally Posted by Jasondr91

It does seem since the postal service was used, this is straight up mail fraud. USPS contacted? With the value of the Jordan, that’s got to matter. I’m so sorry to hear this. Lastly, if the item was professionally slabbed as authentic, him cracking it from its iriginal sold state seems to kill his bogus claim. The card isn’t traceable without the serial number. The card slabbed had a PSA serial number. So thisbidiot can pull this scam over and over.

Yup. This is the consensus on here. Even as a buyer, I would send it in slabbed to get verified by PSA to protect myself because I would be worried if I break it, I wouldn't get a refund. Unreal.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Blake711

So with your logic why can't OP just tell buyer tough sh#& I bought it from abc in 2016 go talk to him. He is the one that should have authenticated it. Where does the buck stop?

Because that's not how it works. When you sell something to a buyer, you are responsible, not the person you bought it from. They are responsible for selling it to you. But keep trying to deflect responsibility. The fact there are so many of trying to figure out ways to sell counterfeit goods without being responsible, is scary as heck.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Southpas2013

Yup. This is the consensus on here. Even as a buyer, I would send it in slabbed to get verified by PSA to protect myself because I would be worried if I break it, I wouldn't get a refund. Unreal.

The funny thing is PSA wouldn't send it back to you slabbed if they determined it was counterfeit. Now that's irony if I've ever seen it, lol.

[Southpas2013]

Originally Posted by h00perstar34

More I think about it Wouldn’t you be able to tell the difference with an altered slab? If he had any notion of it being a fake wouldn’t you send it into PSA and get market value for the card if they graded it being fake?

that would seem like the logical thing to do, but in a scammers case he can't get a real card and his money back.

[Southpas2013]

Originally Posted by pgisback

The funny thing is PSA wouldn't send it back to you slabbed if they determined it was counterfeit. Now that's irony if I've ever seen it, lol.

Exactly, and they shouldn't send it back, that's my whole point.

[Southpas2013]

Originally Posted by Blake711

Here is an example. Its a pay site to search history of card sales.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=268


pgisback - you never responded to my last question. Also you keep making the accusation the card was faked and that we are okay with counterfeits. No one on here has said they were cool with counterfeits. Also its never been proven what was sent was a fake. You are simply going off what they buyer said. The op has a right to prove what he sent was legit. Its basically innocent till proven guilty. You just let the buyer be judge, juror and executioner of the OPs card. Most people think the op got screwed coming and going on this, not that we are cool with scammers selling fakes.

haha right?

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Southpas2013

that would seem like the logical thing to do, but in a scammers case he can't get a real card and his money back.

It's hilarious how you guys are coming up with what buyers should or shouldn't know when it comes to counterfeits that the seller doesn't even know is a counterfeit. If the seller doesn't know it's counterfeit than there is no reasonable expectation that the buyer would know. And if there is a real expectation the buyer should know it's counterfeit than there is a real expectation the seller should know, which would mean the seller should know they are selling counterfeit goods and not sell it. Lol. Logic at it's finest.

[ewilkens]

This has been an interesting read, and I'm going to ignore the "who's financially responsible" argument and focus on some lessons learned and see what I and maybe others can apply... So for now I'm going to concede that the OP bought and sold a fake PSA slab.

I also have a PSA 8 Jordan. Like the OP, I bought graded and trusted that PSA had authenticated it, so I didn't pore over the card, just checked a few of the major red flags. And now this thread has me wondering the following questions:

-I bought this card roughly 10 years ago, does worthpoint or ebay (or anything else) go back that far?
-How can I verify my slab is legit?
-How did (someone here) search for completed listings with the PSA serial number, or did you just look through each listing and match up the number?
-If I send to PSA will they confirm it is legit, and if it's not legit, what recourse would I be left with?

QUICK EDIT: I don't have scans hi-res handy, and probably won't for the duration of this thread as my phone is all I have to take pics with and my old scans are fuzzy

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Blake711

pgisback - you never responded to my last question. Also you keep making the accusation the card was faked and that we are okay with counterfeits. No one on here has said they were cool with counterfeits. Also its never been proven what was sent was a fake. You are simply going off what they buyer said. The op has a right to prove what he sent was legit. Its basically innocent till proven guilty. You just let the buyer be judge, juror and executioner of the OPs card. Most people think the op got screwed coming and going on this, not that we are cool with scammers selling fakes.

Everything I talk about is the real life scenario that a card is counterfeit. If a seller can prove they were sent back a card that they didn't send the buyer, then 100% have at it. What you guys are doing is defending selling counterfeit goods, which is sketch as heck.

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by pgisback

The better question is, if you bought those two McDavids from me and wanted to send them to PSA, cracked them out, and PSA returned them saying I sent you two counterfeit McDavids, you would just say "Oh well, I cracked the slabs, these worthless counterfeits are all mine now". Lmao.

But in your scenario. If I thought you were pulling a scam on me, I would gather up all the evidence and pursue it. If I thought I truly had two counterfeit mcdavids, I would turn my attention to who I bought them from. Because what possible case can I have against you if I truly sent you two counterfeit McDavids? That you took the counterfeits out of the case? That's sketchy as all hell.

I wouldnt make that mistake. I would never crack them out of the BGS case in the first place. If I got them RCR'd in the slab and they said they were fake, I would return them to you in their slabs for a refund. I wouldnt crack them out period.

If I cracked them out and they are raw, would you accept them back for a full refund? Lets say PSA told me they were altered and or counterfeit. Would you be ok with me sending back two non serialed card that possibly not be the ones in the slab for a full refund unslabbed?

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

I wouldnt make that mistake. I would never crack them out of the BGS case in the first place. If I got them RCR'd and they said they were fake, I would return them to you in their slabs for a refund. I wouldnt crack them out period.

If I cracked them out and they are raw, would you accept them back for a full refund? Lets say PSA told me they were altered and or counterfeit. Would you be ok with me sending back two non serialed card that possibly not be the ones in the slab for a full refund unslabbed?

I was just using your hypothetical scenario. I don't crack cards out either, but I know if I did and you sent me a counterfeit I would send it back because you sold me a counterfeit card worth nothing.

The fact you think I'm the bad guy in that scenario and should take the loss because I took the counterfeit out of a case I didn't want to keep it in, is the scary thing.

[pgisback]

It is so sketchy that some of you guys think buyers are more responsible for what you are selling than you are. Yikes.

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by pgisback

I was just using your hypothetical scenario. I don't crack cards out either, but I know if I did and you sent me a counterfeit I would send it back because you sold me a counterfeit card worth nothing.

The fact you think I'm the bad guy in that scenario and should take the loss because I took the counterfeit out of a case I didn't want to keep it in, is the scary thing.

The only thing scary here is you think its impossible for someone to switch out raw cards on you. It happens all the time. Especially when there is no serial numbering and the raw card is available a dime a dozen at any time.

Simple fact of the matter is if the card and the slab it is in gives you any doubt, just return it. Dont go cracking the card out. Simply return what you are not comfortable with. Do not alter...just return it. Why make matters worse when they can be avoided?

[hairyangryfella]

Originally Posted by pgisback

It also opens up the door for scammers selling counterfeit goods to be protected. And luckily, buyers are allowed to return counterfeits you sell them whether they are in a case or not.

At this point it's clear that you have accused me of 'coming up with ways to scam' and refuse to address that despite multiple attempts, so you're a coward and a joke.

Originally Posted by pgisback

Because that's not how it works. When you sell something to a buyer, you are responsible, not the person you bought it from. They are responsible for selling it to you. But keep trying to deflect responsibility. The fact there are so many of trying to figure out ways to sell counterfeit goods without being responsible, is scary as heck.

So what you're saying here is that any card that has moved on to a second seller absolves the first of any and all responsibility? I bet BNC is happy to hear that...

[SanAntonioSpurs]

There's clearly some really stupid people in this thread.... I know I shouldn't be, but I'm shocked at some of what I've read. Some people must just have a need for attention because they can't possibly believe what they're typing. I also can't believe people are taking the time to reply to all the stupidity either.