PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Betsy?

Warm.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Cards Purchased by Moser: 490
Total Spent: $423,629
Total Sold through PWCC & StevenNovella: $1,332,327
Total Profit: $908,698
ROI: 214.50%

Lol. This is just one guy (and what we currently know of his past transactions).

Yikes.

We're just scraping the tip of the iceberg.

[palmetto7]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Lol. This is just one guy (and what we currently know of his past transactions).

Yikes.

We're just scraping the tip of the iceberg.

Agree....if Boda has caught even 10 percent of this particular situation which is highly unlikely that would be.....ohhhh....close to 10 million

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Warm.

Are you thinking it's Brent (Gary) Moser?

[SetBuilder]

pspa123 may be on to something. Just checked the numbers and between 2007-2014, Moser made 145 purchases, and 143 were trimmed and only 6 had alterations other than trimming.

Out of those 6, only 4 were cleaned or bleached in some way (less than 3%), and the other 2 had pressed out creases. Four of the 6 were also trimmed along with the cleaning and/or pressing.

In the end, only 2 of his 145 purchases between 2007-2014 (less than 1.5%), were cleaned and/or pressed with no trimming.

Then, from 2015-2019, the number spikes dramatically. Out of Moser's 346 purchases in that time period, 157 of them had alterations other than trimming (45% of his buys).

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by palmetto7

Agree....if Boda has caught even 10 percent of this particular situation which is highly unlikely that would be.....ohhhh....close to 10 million

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

If I'm in the possession of some slabbed vintage, I'd be doing all I can to scour for historical records to ensure I get in a chargeback claim before PWCC declares insolvency.

I truly doubt they have enough reserve funds to cover this entire fiasco.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

If I'm in the possession of some slabbed vintage, I'd be doing all I can to scour for historical records to ensure I get in a chargeback claim before PWCC declares insolvency.

I truly doubt they have enough reserve funds to cover this entire fiasco.

They don’t have enough to cover just what BODA has found.

I’d LOVE to see who the top 20 PSA submitters have been year after year. Would Moser crack that? Top 5?

I’d hope the majority can see exactly what is going on here.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

They don’t have enough to cover just what BODA has found.

I’d LOVE to see who the top 20 PSA submitters have been year after year. Would Moser crack that? Top 5?

I’d hope the majority can see exactly what is going on here.

Guys within the 'big' network, independent operators, and guys that probably dabbled for awhile, hit their target, and got out completely (months, years, decades ago).... still yet to be discovered.

The well goes deep.

[SetBuilder]

The highest gaining card in this thread, by percentage terms, was a PSA 4.5 1948 Leaf Sid Luckman that Moser purchased for only $179.46, trimmed into a PSA 8, and sold for $35,100.

A colossal 19,459% ROI.

That's going to be tough to beat.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

The highest gaining card in this thread, by percentage terms, was a PSA 4.5 1948 Leaf Sid Luckman that Moser purchased for only $179.46, trimmed into a PSA 8, and sold for $35,100.

A colossal 19,459% ROI.

That's going to be tough to beat.

Is there a way to find out who currently owns it via set registry?


Wonder what they think about all of this, or if they're indifferent because it keeps them on the slab clecters pedestal.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

The card alterations really started to ramp up in 2016-17, and peaked in 2018. Steep drop so far this year because of this scandal.

But this is misleading in that it represents the “floor” or minimum value only that was so far discovered.

This is likely just a drop in the bucket.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

But this is misleading in that it represents the “floor” or minimum value only that was so far discovered.

This is likely just a drop in the bucket.

That's only for the 551 cards discovered in this thread.

Did you want me to make one for all of the cards yet to be discovered?

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

They don’t have enough to cover just what BODA has found.

I’d LOVE to see who the top 20 PSA submitters have been year after year. Would Moser crack that? Top 5?

I’d hope the majority can see exactly what is going on here.

I don't think he's been submitting himself.

[rcmb3220]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

The card alterations really started to ramp up in 2016-17, and peaked in 2018. Steep drop so far this year because of this scandal.

Not that much of a drop in pace since the year is only 7/12 through.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

pspa123 may be on to something. Just checked the numbers and between 2007-2014, Moser made 145 purchases, and 143 were trimmed and only 6 had alterations other than trimming.

Out of those 6, only 4 were cleaned or bleached in some way (less than 3%), and the other 2 had pressed out creases. Four of the 6 were also trimmed along with the cleaning and/or pressing.

In the end, only 2 of his 145 purchases between 2007-2014 (less than 1.5%), were cleaned and/or pressed with no trimming.

Then, from 2015-2019, the number spikes dramatically. Out of Moser's 346 purchases in that time period, 157 of them had alterations other than trimming (45% of his buys).

Read very closely Betsy's email that was posted by SKurtis the other day. This is not why I believe what I believe -- but it is consistent with it

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

That's only for the 551 cards discovered in this thread.



Did you want me to make one for all of the cards yet to be discovered?

Yes, please, I’ll expect it on my desk in the morning.

I suggest labeling the graph with the “551 cards discovered in thread” wording just so it’s not taken out of context. It could be a problem if the media were to misunderstand the graph and use it somewhere!

[ninjacookies]

We have to take into consideration the tremendous sudden spike in vintage prices the past few years and how that may have served as incentive. I still believe this price hike was a coordinated effort by several conservationalists as well as PWCC themselves. This was right around the time people outside the hobby such as Gary Vee started coming in and hoarding while simultaneously praising these graded cards as a legit investment vehicle. It all felt very Bitcoinish.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by pspa123

I don't think he's been submitting himself.

For how long? Dude was outed on the CU boards as far back as 2003.

Let’s say Moser doesn’t submit under his name anymore. I’d still like to see the data on the top 20 submitters.

So far BODA has marked 0.002% of the total pop report. While that doesn’t seem high, it’s actually astonishing considering how they are finding these cards. Give 312 and Corndog all the submission reports and watch how many turn up.

Why are these consignors paying restitution to their customers when they could just send the ones defrauded to PSA who would pay out under the guarantee?

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Read very closely Betsy's email that was posted by SKurtis the other day. This is not why I believe what I believe -- but it is consistent with it

For the record, here is the letter Peter is referring to:

Originally Posted by skurtis

Hi Scott,

Thank you for reaching out to us. The Gehrig you refer to hasn't been identified as having proof of alteration and was not associated with anyone now known to be problematic. It is possible this card was cleaned or otherwise conserved before being submitted for re-grading which is not uncommon in this market. In our opinion, you should feel confident owning this card as part of your collection.

That said, we are committed to ensuring that buyers feel happy with their purchases and safe buying from PWCC moving forward. We would be pleased to offer to purchase the Gehrig from you at what you paid for it. Please note that because this card has not been altered (trimmed, recolored, etc.) it does not fall under our Marketplace Guarantee; this is an offer to buy the card back from you as we want you to feel good about the cards that you own. Please let me know if you'd like us to buy this back and I will have a pre-paid shipping label sent to you immediately. We will issue you payment as soon as the card arrives in house.

We proactively reach out to all buyers of cards with proof of alteration. If you bought anything problematic from us you will hear from us. The cards you refer to have no evidence of alteration. This process is ongoing, so if anything you bought does have proof of alteration you will hear from us.

I don't know about specific discrepancies you refer to; but I would be happy to research if you could provide the lot number, eBay ID, etc. The data presented on VCP, our website, and our eBay Market Price Research tool is drawn from the same sources. The only known discrepancy is when eBay's backend website didn't properly record a purchase as shipped, sometimes, this data doesn't properly push through their API. Our Auction Archive shows all our past sales; anything that was not paid is deleted from the archive.

Thank you,

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Marketplace

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

For how long? Dude was outed on the CU boards as far back as 2003.

Let’s say Moser doesn’t submit under his name anymore. I’d still like to see the data on the top 20 submitters.

So far BODA has marked 0.002% of the total pop report. While that doesn’t seem high, it’s actually astonishing considering how they are finding these cards. Give 312 and Corndog all the submission reports and watch how many turn up.

Why are these consignors paying restitution to their customers when they could just send the ones defrauded to PSA who would pay out under the guarantee?

Because, I would guess, they submitted them.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Cards Purchased by Moser: 490

Total Spent: $423,629

Total Sold through PWCC & StevenNovella: $1,332,327

Total Profit: $908,698

ROI: 214.50%

It’s interesting to consider everything *else* that goes along with these numbers. The reduction in value of cards with lesser grades now that there’s an (artificially) higher graded card, the opportunity cost in that the money spent on these altered cards wasn’t used somewhere else, even the amount of money lost if the money used to buy these cards could have been put towards debt or other investments.

I don’t think Brent is paying back the purchase price PLUS interest, but he should for some of these big purchases...

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Because, I would guess, they submitted them.

Ok. Let’s say that’s the case. So what?

If Brent sent in, say an altered 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum Dimagio (completely random card I just picked) and then sold it to me. I find out it’s altered, take it to him and he tells me to contact PSA to get my refund. That would be the logical thing for these guys to do since PSA guarantees the grade on the slab.

Why would they pay out just because they submitted the card? It makes no sense to me. Brent isn’t guaranteeing anything.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Ok. Let’s say that’s the case. So what?

If Brent sent in, say an altered 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum Dimagio (completely random card I just picked) and then sold it to me. I find out it’s altered, take it to him and he tells me to contact PSA to get my refund. That would be the logical thing for these guys to do since PSA guarantees the grade on the slab.

Why would they pay out just because they submitted the card? It makes no sense to me. Brent isn’t guaranteeing anything.

Take it one step further beyond they submitted them. And then add in they're under federal investigation trying to position themselves to do damage control on sanctions.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Ok. Let’s say that’s the case. So what?

If Brent sent in, say an altered 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum Dimagio (completely random card I just picked) and then sold it to me. I find out it’s altered, take it to him and he tells me to contact PSA to get my refund. That would be the logical thing for these guys to do since PSA guarantees the grade on the slab.

Why would they pay out just because they submitted the card? It makes no sense to me. Brent isn’t guaranteeing anything.

Almost seems like a guilt move to me.

If the tinfoil hat theory proves correct and PWCC was well aware of many of these acts of 'conservation' prior to listing, then they may fear additional lawsuits from PSA if their personal tally keeps piling up.

I know if I'm PSA (despite being beyond negligent in many of these grading examples) and found out that PWCC was in on this, I'd be quite pissed with the bill I'm amassing.

I don't know. Just something to throw out there.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Ok. Let’s say that’s the case. So what?

If Brent sent in, say an altered 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum Dimagio (completely random card I just picked) and then sold it to me. I find out it’s altered, take it to him and he tells me to contact PSA to get my refund. That would be the logical thing for these guys to do since PSA guarantees the grade on the slab.

Why would they pay out just because they submitted the card? It makes no sense to me. Brent isn’t guaranteeing anything.

Because PSA and PWCC are now intertwined in a mutual business relationship.

PWCC could refuse refunds and invoke PSA’s guarantee, but if they do that then PSA kicks them to the curb after the losses begin to mount.

Essentially, PWCC is on the hook because they want to keep submitting to PSA in the future.