LeBron James sets the record for most assists by a forward in NBA history

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Interesting that no one here has even mentioned defense.

Jordan: 9 time First team All-Defense
Lebron: 5 time First team All-Defense 1 time Second team (and counting)
Magic: 0 Time All-Defense

This is why Magic will never quite be on the same level and Jordan/Lebron

Defense is such a huge part of the game and most people don't even acknowledge it.

Defense is a huge part but it's not like Magic was a matador. He was an average defender. To say Magic isn't on the same level as Lebron is laughable. Go through the man's career accomplishments. He is a top player of all time and any list.

[xavieronly1]

Originally Posted by GC1980

Defense is a huge part but it's not like Magic was a matador. He was an average defender. To say Magic isn't on the same level as Lebron is laughable. Go through the man's career accomplishments. He is a top 5 player of all time and any list.

Any list? MJ, Russell, Chamberlain, Jabbar.. already top 4. That does not even count Big O, Larry Bird. Top 5 on ANY list? Top 10, yes. Not Top 5.

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by xavieronly1

Any list? MJ, Russell, Chamberlain, Jabbar.. already top 4. That does not even count Big O, Larry Bird. Top 5 on ANY list? Top 10, yes. Not Top 5.

I put him over bird and robertson but you basically proved my point, that being there is no way in hell you can claim Magic is not on the level of LBJ. Even by your contrarian post, you can easily argue him in that 5th spot.

I even edited my post to make you happy

[asujbl]

Another thread that turns into a giant argument when LeBron just turned 30 years old. Good stuff.

The fact is people want to pick on LeBron just because it's fun. Today is the perfect day as it marks "games played" with single digits

Player A - 890 Career games, 49.6%, 6,357 Rebounds, 6,142 Assists, 1,516 Steals, 706 Blocks, 24,402 Points

Player B - 897 Career games, 49.6%, 8,974 Rebounds, 5,695 Assists, 1,556 Steals, 755 Blocks, 21,791 Points

Those are probably my 2 favorite players of all time.

The simple fact is they are as close as you can be - one of them is 30 - one of them retired with those stats.

You can play the "what if" game all you want but at the end of the day LeBron is going to end up being Top 5 unless he simply quits or gets hurt.

[xavieronly1]

Originally Posted by GC1980

I put him over bird and robertson but you basically proved my point, that being there is no way in hell you can claim Magic is not on the level of LBJ. Even by your contrarian post, you can easily argue him in that 5th spot.

I even edited my post to make you happy

I agree that Lebron is no where near the top 5 list. Just Kobe and Duncan already did more than Lebron (as of today).

But the amazing part is that, Lebron's career still has another 10 years to go. And it all depends on how his coach/team uses him. I think he can drop 20/5/5 on daily basis even at age 40.

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by xavieronly1

I agree that Lebron is no where near the top 5 list. Just Kobe and Duncan already did more than Lebron (as of today).

But the amazing part is that, Lebron's career still has another 10 years to go. And it all depends on how his coach/team uses him. I think he can drop 20/5/5 on daily basis even at age 40.

It all depends on how his body holds up. 10 years would be what, a 23 year career? It's possible but i would think more like 5-7 left in his tank with another 3 prime years.

Top 5 is a tough group and would require prime play, great team success and perfect health. I would say he is a lock for top 10 though and that is a major accomplishment. I am not a fan but the man is that good.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by GC1980

Defense is a huge part but it's not like Magic was a matador. He was an average defender. To say Magic isn't on the same level as Lebron is laughable. Go through the man's career accomplishments. He is a top player of all time and any list.

Fair point... let me revise my statement:

Magic is not on the same level as Jordan

When it is all said and done, barring any unforeseen catastrophic setbacks, Magic won't be on the same level as LeBron.

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Fair point... let me revise my statement:

Magic is not on the same level as Jordan

When it is all said and done, barring any unforeseen catastrophic setbacks, Magic won't be on the same level as LeBron.

It's possible. I may also be biased because I am a huge Magic fan. I feel he is a special case because of his forced retirement. If we knew then what we know now, he could have likely played a few more seasons. Our knowledge of the HIV in 1990 was in it's infancy. He averaged 19.4/12.5/7 in his final full season. Even after the 5 year lay off the guy came back and dropped 14.6/6.9/5.7.

Magic essentially retired at 31 and is still a top 10 all time player. Being on his level means being arguably a top 5, lock for a top7-10 player to ever play. The only level higher IMO is the MJ level.

OK, enough Magic jocking for me hahaha.

[xavieronly1]

Originally Posted by GC1980

It all depends on how his body holds up. 10 years would be what, a 23 year career? It's possible but i would think more like 5-7 left in his tank with another 3 prime years.

Top 5 is a tough group and would require prime play, great team success and perfect health. I would say he is a lock for top 10 though and that is a major accomplishment. I am not a fan but the man is that good.

To crack top 5, he needs to win at least 3 more rings. Individual stat is not going to help him to boost his "rank".

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by GC1980

It's possible. I may also be biased because I am a huge Magic fan. I feel he is a special case because of his forced retirement. If we knew then what we know now, he could have likely played a few more seasons. Our knowledge of the HIV in 1990 was in it's infancy. He averaged 19.4/12.5/7 in his final full season. Even after the 5 year lay off the guy came back and dropped 14.6/6.9/5.7.

Magic essentially retired at 31 and is still a top 10 all time player. Being on his level means being arguably a top 5, lock for a top7-10 player to ever play. The only level higher IMO is the MJ level.

OK, enough Magic jocking for me hahaha.

I think most would agree - but compare Magic to LeBron - right now

Magic played 906 games in his career. So as of today he's got 16 more games under his belt then LeBron does

49.6% vs. 52%
6,357 vs. 6,559 Rebounds
6,142 vs. 10,141 Assists
1,516 vs. 1,724 Steals
706 vs. 374 Blocks
24,402 vs. 17,707 Points

What does that mean? Nothing specific necessarily... both obviously had some differences in their game.

But what it does mean is that Magic can be compared to LeBron right now. Today. In 2015.

Sure there are MVP and Title differences. Those of course matter. LeBron needs to add additional rings. I don't think anyone denies that.

But at the same time we'd all agree Magic is a Top 10 player of all time. No doubt.

But you can also match the 2 guys up and LeBron has at least 5-10 more years to go barring something crazy.

That's why people don't appreciate what LeBron is doing.

[pingbling23]

Magic was a beast, but his legacy and how we perceive him is highly due to him being on some of the best teams in history, attributing to 5 titles. Not a slight on magic at all, just something to think about.

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by asujbl

I think most would agree - but compare Magic to LeBron - right now

Magic played 906 games in his career. So as of today he's got 16 more games under his belt then LeBron does

49.6% vs. 52%
6,357 vs. 6,559 Rebounds
6,142 vs. 10,141 Assists
1,516 vs. 1,724 Steals
706 vs. 374 Blocks
24,402 vs. 17,707 Points

What does that mean? Nothing specific necessarily... both obviously had some differences in their game.

But what it does mean is that Magic can be compared to LeBron right now. Today. In 2015.

Sure there are MVP and Title differences. Those of course matter. LeBron needs to add additional rings. I don't think anyone denies that.

But at the same time we'd all agree Magic is a Top 10 player of all time. No doubt.

But you can also match the 2 guys up and LeBron has at least 5-10 more years to go barring something crazy.

That's why people don't appreciate what LeBron is doing.

I don't think anyone can debate that LBJ isn't doing historic things and isn't going to go down as a top 10 player (assuming he roughly doubles his current ring count). Bottom line is the Finals success Magic enjoyed along with his role in revolutionizing the game and redefining what a PG was (btw, this is a huge reason i would say LBJ is so special as well,he redefines his position. Magic just was a more extreme example.) makes him stand a bit higher.

LBJ has quite a few years to pad his resume. Magic's career was tragically cut short. We can only judge him on what he did in his time on the court and it was flat out nasty.

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by GC1980

I don't think anyone can debate that LBJ isn't doing historic things and isn't going to go down as a top 10 player (assuming he roughly doubles his current ring count). Bottom line is the Finals success Magic enjoyed along with his role in revolutionizing the game and redefining what a PG was (btw, this is a huge reason i would say LBJ is so special as well,he redefines his position. Magic just was a more extreme example.) makes him stand a bit higher.

LBJ has quite a few years to pad his resume. Magic's career was tragically cut short. We can only judge him on what he did in his time on the court and it was flat out nasty.

I agree with all this for the most part - although LeBron is going tobe Top 5, not Top 10, if he doubles his ring count.

I'm simply saying that LeBron, statistically, can be compared favorably to Magic and Bird right now. Today. And he still has a half decade to go.

He can also be in the discussion with Bird as far as MVP's and Rings. Magic he has to catch. We all know that.

I'm not knocking any player, Bird is my favorite "non cleveland" player of all time, but people don't really appreciate what LeBron is doing. Some do of course.

It's just easier to knock him.

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

Magic was a beast, but his legacy and how we perceive him is highly due to him being on some of the best teams in history, attributing to 5 titles. Not a slight on magic at all, just something to think about.

Absolutely agree. He was the leader of some of the greatest teams ever and that is a big piece of his legacy. That's why even though they have not "organically" come together, you can't completely discredit LBJ for teaming up with superstars. It's a blemish on his "personality" but all the greats had strong teams. You just have to lead the team both on and off the court and win. This is where LBJ needs to grow, IMO, in order to be on Magic's level. Not the other way around.

[dasiegel]

Originally Posted by kairi-2008

When he retires, we will say he was the greatest.

I won't, and I'm sure many won't. But he is by far the best all around player since the Big O.

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by dasiegel

I won't, and I'm sure many won't. But he is by far the best all around player since the Big O.

This is the problem with these threads.

How do you know you won't? Do you know what he's going to do for the next 5-7 years?

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by asujbl

This is the problem with these threads.

How do you know you won't? Do you know what he's going to do for the next 5-7 years?

It would take an unreal 5-7 years to top MJ for most. He could rattle off like 4/7 rings and retire with 6, that would still only pull him even in title count. Add in the all defensive teams and scoring titles and 6 Finals MVP's and it just shows how strong MJ's hold on the top spot is.

[dasiegel]

Originally Posted by asujbl

This is the problem with these threads.

How do you know you won't? Do you know what he's going to do for the next 5-7 years?

Well it's a good point to say how do I know... but what I'm responding to is what I have seen thus far and in reaction to the hundreds of threads that laud him as the best already.

I think Lebron is the hands down best player in the NBA today but I have seen him talked about as the best already, top 5 already etc. I guess I just resent it. I think he will go down as one of the best but I have seen a lot of his flaws over the years that would stop him from being my #1. Most notably the finals v. Dallas. He also went through a time where he couldn't hit FTs, where he wasn't considered clutch, where he was too deferential.

I have seen him play on stacked man made teams and of course he did great, he won some titles, got two rings, awesome stuff! But he wouldn't pass some of the greats in my book if he quit playing today.

I'm against the people who say there is NO WAY he could EVER be the best of all time and have MJ locked in their # spot, that's not fair. But the people who have him there already as just as guilty on the other side.

Another factor here is that everyone forgets about the guys from the past because of whats going on "right now." About 6 years ago people were asking if Kobe was the best player of all times and what if he got a 7th ring, etc. Just not willing to crown the King yet.

[dbird3312]

Originally Posted by GC1980

I don't think anyone can debate that LBJ isn't doing historic things and isn't going to go down as a top 10 player (assuming he roughly doubles his current ring count). Bottom line is the Finals success Magic enjoyed along with his role in revolutionizing the game and redefining what a PG was (btw, this is a huge reason i would say LBJ is so special as well,he redefines his position. Magic just was a more extreme example.) makes him stand a bit higher.



LBJ has quite a few years to pad his resume. Magic's career was tragically cut short. We can only judge him on what he did in his time on the court and it was flat out nasty.

If lebron retired today, he is a top 10 player. Right? Avg 27, 7, and 7 for your career with 2 rings, 5 appearances, 4 MVPs, twice finished second in the dpoy voting. It took scottie 17 years to get his assists and lebron is in his 12th or 13th year?

He is the best all around player of all time. If he wasn't such a willing passer he would average 30 every year. How does that not make you a top 10 already?

[groundsupport]

I don't ever remember Magic taking 4th quarters off in the NBA Finals.

Just Saying.

[tristan20]

Originally Posted by groundsupport

I don't ever remember Magic taking 4th quarters off in the NBA Finals.

Just Saying.

Yeah because he had a guy named Kareem

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by tristan20

Yeah because he had a guy named Kareem

except when he didn't and Magic decided to take over the finals as a rookie playing center. 42pts and 15 Rebs in a deciding game 6...as a rookie.

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?story...60&src=desktop

Teammate help is not an argument you should use to knock magic and support Lebron. Just sayin.

[nickha2]

Originally Posted by kairi-2008

When he retires, we will say he was the greatest at building an all-star team to get his rings.

Fixed it for you

[coclarkson]

lebron's post game is non existent. i would still take larry bird as my starting forward before lebron. bird could pass just as good as lebron, he could dominate in the post, plus he was a phenomanal shooter and rebounder. also led the celtics to the finals 5 times winning 3 titles

also i was kinda surprised to see kevin garnett is 5th all time in foward assists

[pingbling23]

Originally Posted by coclarkson

lebron's post game is non existent. i would still take larry bird as my starting forward before lebron. bird could pass just as good as lebron, he could dominate in the post, plus he was a phenomanal shooter and rebounder. also led the celtics to the finals 5 times winning 3 titles

also i was kinda surprised to see kevin garnett is 5th all time in foward assists

Hmm, actually lebron has been quite successful when he uses his post game. I feel like we will see more of it in the coming years as he gets older and slower. Also, you won't see someone playing in the post as much when they are running the point.