Luis Gonzalez: cheat?

[oldgoldy97]

I’m just glad steroids have been eliminated from the earth, just like measles.

[Chrominator]

No, absolutely not.

Sometimes, one just gets dialed-in and does things that shouldn't be possible.

[caulaflour]

Not sure if anybody's mentioned that the year Boggs hit his -1987 - was an extremely well-documented juiced ball year. Look at the totals so many guys hit that year that never did it any other year.

Speaking of the juiced ball: that's the only explanation for Luis if it's not steroids. As others pointed out, 57 is too high by so much to just be attributed to "luck."

[daveyc1]

well, I have never heard any actual evidence that he did use. there is no admission of using from him.

I am going to say no until I hear some actual evidence. Statistical record/anomalies are not proof.

if that were the case, Tony Gwynn and Randy Johnson sure did some amazing things in thier post age 35 seasons...

[88horsepower]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Then give Sosa a pass as well.

Sosa has all but admitted outright that he used.

"There were times I did whatever I could to recover from injuries in an effort to keep my strength up to perform over 162 games,"

"I never broke any laws. But in hindsight, I made mistakes and I apologize."

He knows we all know. So, no, I don't give Sosa a pass. But I will give someone a pass who never once failed a test, wasn't named on the Mitchell Report, and has denied ever using.

[TeeBee12]

As a solid golfer, which is eerily similar to hitting home runs by catching the ball in the screws, going on a run outta the blue, without scathing evidence, I like to give the benefit of the doubt. There are most certainly times where Id post a 75, 76, 76, 71, 78, 73, 72, 73, **65**, 78, 77, 71, 85.

Sometimes, just like NBA JAMS, players catch fire. Dont know much about Luis Gonzalez. I was collecting Juan Gonzalez. I do remember & noticed Rafael Palmerio’s “catching of fire” and would have voted “most likely” overriding my own “benefit of the doubt” notion but Luis’? More input needed if I truly cared to dive down that rabbit hole.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by daveyc1

well, I have never heard any actual evidence that he did use. there is no admission of using from him.

I am going to say no until I hear some actual evidence. Statistical record/anomalies are not proof.

if that were the case, Tony Gwynn and Randy Johnson sure did some amazing things in thier post age 35 seasons...

Tony Gwynn and Randy Johnson were already established stars in their 20s. Gonzalez never was until he went to the Diamondbacks in his 30s. That doesn't happen.

So many players were using steroids in 2001.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by 88horsepower

Sosa has all but admitted outright that he used.



He knows we all know. So, no, I don't give Sosa a pass. But I will give someone a pass who never once failed a test, wasn't named on the Mitchell Report, and has denied ever using.

So you would have given him a pass 2 years ago before he said this?

[rfgilles]

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...onzalu01.shtml

Go look at his numbers in his 20s when he what should have been the prime of his career.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by TeeBee12

As a solid golfer, which is eerily similar to hitting home runs by catching the ball in the screws, going on a run outta the blue, without scathing evidence, I like to give the benefit of the doubt. There are most certainly times where Id post a 75, 76, 76, 71, 78, 73, 72, 73, **65**, 78, 77, 71, 85.

Sometimes, just like NBA JAMS, players catch fire. Dont know much about Luis Gonzalez. I was collecting Juan Gonzalez. I do remember & noticed Rafael Palmerio’s “catching of fire” and would have voted “most likely” overriding my own “benefit of the doubt” notion but Luis’? More input needed if I truly cared to dive down that rabbit hole.

Did you ever start randomly driving balls an additional 50 feet?

[daveyc1]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Tony Gwynn and Randy Johnson were already established stars in their 20s. Gonzalez never was until he went to the Diamondbacks in his 30s. That doesn't happen.

Randy Johnson was breaking down (back) and ended up having his greatest seasons post age 35. pretty strange, huh?

Tony gwynn also had his greatest seasons post age 34, and his best power seasons. also strange...

I am not saying they took steroids, because there is no evidence that I know of, I am saying that simply looking at a players statistical record is not proof that he used PED.

Look at how effective Nolan Ryan was at an advanced age. His trainer was also tom house. super suspicious, no?

again, not evidence that nolan used ped, just using him as an example.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by daveyc1

Randy Johnson was breaking down (back) and ended up having his greatest seasons post age 35. pretty strange, huh?

Tony gwynn also had his greatest seasons post age 34, and his best power seasons. also strange...

I am not saying they took steroids, because there is no evidence that I know of, I am saying that simply looking at a players statistical record is not proof that he used PED.

Look at how effective Nolan Ryan was at an advanced age. His trainer was also tom house. super suspicious, no?

again, not evidence that nolan used ped, just using him as an example.

Uh no. You should go check their stats before posting. Again all 3 of those guys were established stars in their 20s. Gonzalez was not.

[oldgoldy97]

Bonds was always a star.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Uh no. You should go check their stats before posting. Again all 3 of those guys were established stars in their 20s. Gonzalez was not.

Gonzalez began his career in one of the worst HR parks in baseball history…the Astrodome. Most of his 20s were played there. He had a season and half at Wrigley then played a season in another notorious HR unfriendly park in Detroit. Then he went to a much better HR park in Arizona and started hitting more HRs. Like many players, he got progressively better, peaked with his best season at age 33 then had a steady decline.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

Bonds was always a star.

And after that, he was an asterisk.

[daveyc1]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Uh no. You should go check their stats before posting. Again all 3 of those guys were established stars in their 20s. Gonzalez was not.

johnson, i would say did not become an established star until his age 29 or 30 season.

wouldnt you agree that it is quite unusual for a pitcher to have his greatest seasons post age 35?? johnson had his greatest war, ip, k, era seasons all post age 35.

tony gwynn had his best string of seasons from age 33 to 37. again, strange, no?

wasnt the main ¨evidence¨ for gonzalez that he had his greatest season at age 33?

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

Bonds was always a star.

Correct. What's your point?

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by daveyc1

johnson, i would say did not become an established star until his age 29 or 30 season.

wouldnt you agree that it is quite unusual for a pitcher to have his greatest seasons post age 35?? johnson had his greatest war, ip, k, era seasons all post age 35.

tony gwynn had his best string of seasons from age 33 to 37. again, strange, no?

wasnt the main ¨evidence¨ for gonzalez that he had his greatest season at age 33?

Gwynn's best seasons were his age 26 and 27 seasons. He already had 4 batting titles in his 20s. Established superstar in his 20s.

Randy Johnson had already led the league in strikeouts and was 2nd in Cy Young as a 29 year old. He had also won a Cy Young before he went to Arizona.

Luis Gonzalez, was never an All-Star in his 20s nor hit more than 15 homers in a season.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Gonzalez began his career in one of the worst HR parks in baseball history…the Astrodome. Most of his 20s were played there. He had a season and half at Wrigley then played a season in another notorious HR unfriendly park in Detroit. Then he went to a much better HR park in Arizona and started hitting more HRs. Like many players, he got progressively better, peaked with his best season at age 33 then had a steady decline.

The Astrodome didn't seem to effect Bagwell much. Gonzalez hit 15 homeruns in Wrigley.

"Like many players he got progressively better"
Like who? Give an example of a player who got progressively better in their 30s.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Did you ever start randomly driving balls an additional 50 feet?

Yes as a close to scratch golfer I’ve absolutely had outliers where I drove a ball a whopping 16 yards past my usual driver distance.

[daveyc1]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Gwynn's best seasons were his age 26 and 27 seasons. He already had 4 batting titles in his 20s. Established superstar in his 20s.

Randy Johnson had already led the league in strikeouts and was 2nd in Cy Young as a 29 year old. He had also won a Cy Young before he went to Arizona.

Luis Gonzalez, was never an All-Star in his 20s nor hit more than 15 homers in a season.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Incorrect.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Yes as a close to scratch golfer I’ve absolutely had outliers where I drove a ball a whopping 16 yards past my usual driver distance.

And that happened consistently over the course of a year I'm sure.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

And that happened consistently over the course of a year I'm sure.

Um yeah 16 yards is nothing when it comes to the driver. If you’re going to make analogies at least know what you’re talking about otherwise you end up looking like an oaf like you do now.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Um yeah 16 yards is nothing when it comes to the driver. If you’re going to make analogies at least know what you’re talking about otherwise you end up looking like an oaf like you do know.

So over the course of a year, after years of playing at a high level, your drives increased an average of 16 yards? Sure.

I'm very impressed you are a scratch golfer though, and how it relates to Luis Gonzalez......

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

And after that, he was an asterisk.

Asterisks are used for exceptions. You have to be very naive to think PED users were the exception in that era. I was playing high level ball at that time. It was beyond ubiquitous. It was so rampant that as someone who has a reputation around here of requiring proof before jumping to conclusions, even I assume everyone was using until proven otherwise. It's just how it was. Andro was literally on the shelf at the store.