GOAT Shares (or GOAT Number)

[GOATcards]

I love the smell of cognitive dissonance in the morning. It smells like...victory

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by rats60

Russell had the talent advantage every series his team played. His teams were stacked with HOFers yet still lost twice. Even in 1969 the Celtics had 5 HOFers, Russell, Havlicek, Sam Jones, Bailey Howell and Satch Sanders to the Lakers 3. The Celtics were always the more talented, deeper team.

Not to mention having Mr. Russell as their coach. I wonder if Red considered him a worthy successor

I wonder which player the other players would prefer as their teammate/leader, Russell or Wilt

I wonder whether quantity of HOFers on a team is as important as quality. Just a season or two ago the Fakers had 5 future HOFers on their team at once, only 2 of whom were integral to getting them to the WCF

No one today has heard of Satch Sanders, only a few have heard of Bailey Howell. (I don't even know jackpoop about Dolph Schayes aside from sharing the same first name with Dolph Lundgren who I think played the Russian in Rocky 3? [Oops, Rocky 3 was the one with the Hulkster])

They also won titles by winning 2 series instead of the modern day 4. It is a lot easier to 7 or 8 games instead of 15 or 16. The most wins it took for them to win a ring was 12.

So easy to do all that winning that your GOAT did how much winning? How much winning did your GOAT and the Logo do together, even after Mr. Russell left the scene. 1 chip in 5 seasons. He did block Kareem's skyhook some number of times though, that was neat

Bad, context-selective arguments seem to be your stock in trade

Originally Posted by Hellcat

What a waste of a thread! Now do a list off of pure basketball skill and talent it will be Jordan 1a and Kobe 1b then fill in the rest! These nerd formulas are so funny. Guys who never picked up a basketball much less can shoot one always compose these lists!

Since when did pure talent translate into greatness? Since when does pure talent get defined in terms of what MJ/Kobe are especially talented at? Who else has Jokic's talent for reading the court, the development of plays? Or Russell or Timmy's talent for leadership?

I seem to recall shooting around for maybe hundreds of hours as a kid, and learned in anything like challenging competition that I wasn't cut out for it.

Bad, context-selective arguments seem to be your stock in trade

[GOATcards]

All's I knows is, combine talent and longevity and do a fair timeline adjustment and the numbers say that Bron is easily the GOAT. He's far and away the leader in career regular season and playoff VORP. (MJ's playoff BPM however is still tops.) 4 Finals MVPs in the most competitive era yet is hard to beat. He was the best player in 3 Finals series he lost. (Okay so arguably Durant was tied with him as best in 2 of them.)

Numbers-wise I don't think there's a question. (Like with Ted Williams the analysts are left "filling in the gaps" of missed seasons for MJ.) It's other, less numbers-related issues that don't have a consensus sold on him as GOAT over MJ. I for one find it exceedingly difficult to reconcile the amount of his appearance on Shaqtin' a Fool with the status of Greatest of All Time. I might otherwise accept that his 2011 Finals choke was a learning-curve thing redeemed by monster Finals showings later. I might even consider his flopping reels to be contextualized somehow to the cynicism introduced by bad officiating. But the Shaqtin' showings are inexcusable, same with the Beard.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Not to mention having Mr. Russell as their coach. I wonder if Red considered him a worthy successor

I wonder which player the other players would prefer as their teammate/leader, Russell or Wilt

Red Auerbach tried to get Wilt on the Celtics. Out of high school he recruited Wilt to go to college in Boston so the Celtics would have his draft rights. After Wilt picked Kansas, meaning Philadelphia would have his draft rights, Auerbach traded for Bill Russell.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by rats60

Red Auerbach tried to get Wilt on the Celtics. Out of high school he recruited Wilt to go to college in Boston so the Celtics would have his draft rights. After Wilt picked Kansas, meaning Philadelphia would have his draft rights, Auerbach traded for Bill Russell.

Might Red's perspective have shifted by a few years later? Is that context that might have mattered to this point, and which makes no sense whatsoever not to bring up?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Might Red's perspective have shifted by a few years later? Is that context that might have mattered to this point, and which makes no sense whatsoever not to bring up?

No it doesn't because it is all speculation. Do you think Red's later opinions are going to be biased against a guy who said no to him? I have just posted facts. I am sorry you can't handle the truth.

Wilt did well with Alex Hannum and Bill Sherman as his coaches. Wilt clashed with others who Wilt thought were bad coaches.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

What a waste of a thread! Now do a list off of pure basketball skill and talent it will be Jordan 1a and Kobe 1b then fill in the rest! These nerd formulas are so funny. Guys who never picked up a basketball much less can shoot one always compose these lists!

Pure talent and skill,top 10 in no particular order,Wilt,Oscar,Jordan,Kareem,Kobe,Magic,Russell,Bird,DR.J,West.Nobody still playing should be on the list.Though if someone put James on kinda hard to argue.

[GOATcards]

RealGM POY Shares for 2023-24 season


Top 5
Jokic - .765
Doncic - .659
SGA - .647
Tatum - .259
Brunson - .147

[Hellcat]

Then for the non-nerds we who played the game and use our eyeballs to judge the list would be vastly different. MJ 1a Kobe 1b those 2 players are easily the most talented to ever lace them up.

[Kingofkings1281]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

Then for the non-nerds we who played the game and use our eyeballs to judge the list would be vastly different. MJ 1a Kobe 1b those 2 players are easily the most talented to ever lace them up.

[robert0629]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

Then for the non-nerds we who played the game and use our eyeballs to judge the list would be vastly different. MJ 1a Kobe 1b those 2 players are easily the most talented to ever lace them up.

The curious case of Kobe Bryant…

I don’t agree with you labeling him 1B, but I was once in the camp that thought he was overrated, now I believe he’s being underrated. He was once being compared to Jordan, but now somehow a number of fans are leaving him off their top 10 lists.

Three all time Laker greats (West, Magic, and Shaq) are on record saying that Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time. If you Google “greatest Laker of all time”, you will find that most of the lists have Kobe at the top. Both Magic and Kobe played their entire careers for the Lakers. So if Kobe was a better Laker than Magic (Magic believes he is), it stands to reason he’s also the better overall player. Why then do so many fans have Magic ahead of Kobe on an all time NBA greatest players list?

There’s a narrative that Kobe was somehow carried by Shaq in those first three championships. It’s as if nobody wants to give Kobe any credit for the Lakers’ Threepeat. But the only one you can really make that argument for would be the first one against Indiana. Shaq absolutely dominated in that series with an average Game Score of 30.6. Kobe had an average Game Score in that series of just 9.7, and missed one game.

However, the same can not be said for the other two championships. Shaq was still the best player, but Kobe was more than just a sidekick. In the WCF in 2001, Kobe was the best player on the court leading the Lakers to a four game sweep against a Spurs team that had the home court advantage and was led by Tim Duncan. His 25.4 average Game Score for the series led all players, and was the only one over 20. He also led all players in ppg with 33.3, and apg at 7.0. Although not as dominant in the 2002 WCF, there’s no way the Lakers beat the Kings in that series without Kobe.

I think part of the problem is the Lakers played some pretty weak opponents in the Finals, so there’s this perception that Shaq could've won without Kobe. But getting there was a lot tougher than most fans remember. They had to beat a 59 win Trailblazers team in a series that went seven games. The 61 win Kings team also took them to seven games. They also had to beat two 58 win Spurs teams. It’s pretty obvious the Lakers were not threepeating without Kobe. Shaq has even said that Kobe carried the load on many occasions during that Lakers’ run.

It’s also worth noting that Shaq couldn’t win anything before teaming up with Kobe, despite having Penny Hardaway and some decent supporting casts. In fact he was swept three times in the playoffs as a member of the Magic. The only championship he ever won without Kobe was with the Heat. But in this series, Wade had arguably a top 10 all time Finals performance with an average Game Score of 25.4. He led all scorers by a mile in that series averaging 34.7 a game. Shaq meanwhile posted a very mediocre average Game Score of just 9.6. That’s actually a tick below Kobe’s average Game Score of 9.7 in their first championship together. And yet I’ve never heard anyone not give Shaq full credit for this championship despite clearly being carried by Wade.

Kobe on the other hand led his teams to two championships without Shaq. Despite getting strong contributions from Pau Gasol, Kobe was the best player on these teams. Let’s also throw in the fact that he beat two teams that defeated LeBron’s Cavs in the playoffs.

Fans need to stop underrating Kobe. He is absolutely a top 10 player, and a convincing argument can be made that he belongs in the top 5. I have a feeling that certain media personalities are the reason that Kobe is being underrated. In order to push this LeBron is the GOAT narrative, they needed to show that he had surpassed Kobe. They did a pretty good job of convincing many fans that there’s this huge gap between the two players. In my opinion that gap isn’t as big as some think. I give LeBron the edge, but I think it’s much closer than others seem to think.

A few other things to add: Kobe scored the most points in NBA history in a single decade, and he did it in the 2000's which was the most difficult decade to score points in. He was also instrumental in returning Gold to Team USA in 2008 after both Duncan and LeBron failed to do so in 2004.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by robert0629

There’s a narrative that Kobe was somehow carried by Shaq in those first three championships. It’s as if nobody wants to give Kobe any credit for the Lakers’ Threepeat. But the only one you can really make that argument for would be the first one against Indiana. Shaq absolutely dominated in that series with an average Game Score of 30.6. Kobe had an average Game Score in that series of just 9.7, and missed one game.

However, the same can not be said for the other two championships. Shaq was still the best player, but Kobe was more than just a sidekick.

This kind of thing is interesting because in a way it just points to a difference in timing. Shaq, if he had had a mentor or partner such as he provided to Kobe, could have had a ring earlier in his career and then had another series of championships when he did.

But Kobe lucked out and had Shaq and was a great student, then great leader outright in his own right. So we cannot really say that either player was better. I like the fact that they shared the limelight, unlike say MJ. Is that better? You're trying to quantify something that is like a philosophic difference.

Definitely Kobe and Shaqs approach evolved the game in a way that seems to work better for a lot of teams, from the Warriors (Splash Brothers) to the current Celtics (Tatum and Brown). The Pacers actually take that to a next evolutionary level of having different stars every quarter, or at least every game. Why Haliburton collectors are constantly scratching their heads.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

With a more aggressive 1%-per-year adjustment, this is the result:

Bron - 10.264
Mike - 6.992
Kareem - 5.826
Timmy - 5.512
Magic - 4.909
Mr. Russell - 4.821
Shaq - 4.751
Larry - 4.057
Chef - 3.899
Kobe - 3.803
Wilt - 3.596
Joker - 3.512
Karl - 3.394
Hakeem - 3.197
Doc - 3.028
KG - 3.020
KD - 2.906
Giannis - 2.721

After the '24 POY shares are tallied, the significant change is with Joker:

Bron - 10.264
Mike - 6.992
Kareem - 5.826
Timmy - 5.512
Magic - 4.909
Mr. Russell - 4.821
Shaq - 4.751
Joker - 4.315
Larry - 4.057
Chef - 3.899
Kobe - 3.803
Wilt - 3.596
Karl - 3.394
Hakeem - 3.197
Doc - 3.028
KG - 3.020
KD - 2.906
Giannis - 2.721

since obviously this cannot be, the 1%-per-year timeline adjustment must be off, and/or this is just a ranking from ~14-18 RealGM gatekeepers who are obviously biased toward the no-defense-playing, 1-ring-only Joker; best to leave the voting up to the chatbots from now on

[Torro]

I guess Kobe is like Mantle in baseball, all time top 10 but one of the icons in the hobby

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

Then for the non-nerds we who played the game and use our eyeballs to judge the list would be vastly different. MJ 1a Kobe 1b those 2 players are easily the most talented to ever lace them up.

My only wish is that I can one day meet hellcat irl on the court so I could literally dunk on him just like I virtually dunk all over his Kobe homer posts

[Torro]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

After the '24 POY shares are tallied, the significant change is with Joker:

Bron - 10.264
Mike - 6.992
Kareem - 5.826
Timmy - 5.512
Magic - 4.909
Mr. Russell - 4.821
Shaq - 4.751
Joker - 4.315
Larry - 4.057
Chef - 3.899
Kobe - 3.803
Wilt - 3.596
Karl - 3.394
Hakeem - 3.197
Doc - 3.028
KG - 3.020
KD - 2.906
Giannis - 2.721

since obviously this cannot be, the 1%-per-year timeline adjustment must be off, and/or this is just a ranking from ~14-18 RealGM gatekeepers who are obviously biased toward the no-defense-playing, 1-ring-only Joker; best to leave the voting up to the chatbots from now on

Bron by far top1, Timmy at 4th and Joker in front of Kobe makes this list a joke, is that the purpose of it or you really serious? Have you ever heard anyone saying that Tim Duncan is the GOAT?

[Hellcat]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

My only wish is that I can one day meet hellcat irl on the court so I could literally dunk on him just like I virtually dunk all over his Kobe homer posts

You could only be so lucky! I don't think we will ever cross paths though I'm in alot higher tax bracket! I dont ever make it to the hood! You could probably give me a tour though huh?!

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

You could only be so lucky! I don't think we will ever cross paths though I'm in alot higher tax bracket! I dont ever make it to the hood! You could probably give me a tour though huh?!

I'm sure you are in a higher tax bracket than me but you know the only people who brag about their net worth online?

1) Small, insecure men
2) Broke people

Maybe you're just a small insecure man but you come off more as a wannabe, fake rich guy tbh

[Stifle]

Bill Russell was considered the greatest defensive player to ever play while Wilt was easily the 2nd greatest. Wilt Dominated Russell in head to head matchups in every category but FT% & Wins because Bill had a HOF cast of teammates while Chamberlin with GSW didn’t have a teammate that could make the Celtics roster.

Wilt is easily the greatest / Most Dominant Offensive player. Not only could he score but was able to lead the league in assists.

Before Blocked shots were kept, the Lakers scorekeeper had Wilt as averaging 8 blocks PER GAME for his CAREER as a Laker. Russell was a MVP 5 x & was ALL NBA 1st 3x but only Twice during Wilt’s playing career. Wilt was voted 7 X on the ALL NBA 1st during Russell’s career with the bulk occurring when Bill was at his best. Something to ponder.

MJ, Russell, LeBron and all the rest needed help in attaining rings. Nobody was greater than Wilt, but he landed on a franchise that made the Bulls and Cavaliers look like yearly contenders before MJ & LeBron.

[Hellcat]

Old head post above me! See Babe Ruth analogy he played against a bunch of plumbers and electricians. Now granted further down the timeline but still apropo.

[robert0629]

Originally Posted by Stifle

Bill Russell was considered the greatest defensive player to ever play while Wilt was easily the 2nd greatest. Wilt Dominated Russell in head to head matchups in every category but FT% & Wins because Bill had a HOF cast of teammates while Chamberlin with GSW didn’t have a teammate that could make the Celtics roster.

Wilt is easily the greatest / Most Dominant Offensive player. Not only could he score but was able to lead the league in assists.

Before Blocked shots were kept, the Lakers scorekeeper had Wilt as averaging 8 blocks PER GAME for his CAREER as a Laker. Russell was a MVP 5 x & was ALL NBA 1st 3x but only Twice during Wilt’s playing career. Wilt was voted 7 X on the ALL NBA 1st during Russell’s career with the bulk occurring when Bill was at his best. Something to ponder.

MJ, Russell, LeBron and all the rest needed help in attaining rings. Nobody was greater than Wilt, but he landed on a franchise that made the Bulls and Cavaliers look like yearly contenders before MJ & LeBron.

Why do you Wilt fans insist on lying about his teammates? In Wilt’s final season with the Warriors he went 10-28 for a .263 winning percentage before being traded midseason to the Sixers. The following season Rick Barry joined the Warriors. Playing with essentially the same group of players Wilt played with a year earlier, the Warriors went 35-45 for a .438 winning percentage. The following season they went 44-37 and made it all the way to the Finals. In the Finals they took two games from Wilt’s 68 win Sixers team that some Wilt fans claim is the greatest team of all time. In the sixth and final game of the series Barry’s Warriors held a 102-96 lead going into the fourth quarter. This series was much closer than some fans think.

If Barry could compete for an NBA Championship with these group of players, Jordan and LeBron would have had no problem doing the same.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Stifle

Bill Russell was considered the greatest defensive player to ever play while Wilt was easily the 2nd greatest. Wilt Dominated Russell in head to head matchups in every category but FT% & Wins because Bill had a HOF cast of teammates while Chamberlin with GSW didn’t have a teammate that could make the Celtics roster.

Wilt is easily the greatest / Most Dominant Offensive player. Not only could he score but was able to lead the league in assists.

Before Blocked shots were kept, the Lakers scorekeeper had Wilt as averaging 8 blocks PER GAME for his CAREER as a Laker. Russell was a MVP 5 x & was ALL NBA 1st 3x but only Twice during Wilt’s playing career. Wilt was voted 7 X on the ALL NBA 1st during Russell’s career with the bulk occurring when Bill was at his best. Something to ponder.

MJ, Russell, LeBron and all the rest needed help in attaining rings. Nobody was greater than Wilt, but he landed on a franchise that made the Bulls and Cavaliers look like yearly contenders before MJ & LeBron.

The season after Wilt won his 3rd straight MVP he goes to the Lakers joining West and Baylor. They lose to the retiring Russell's Celts. The Celtics had Hondo and I can't name who else. Russell was the player-coach so maybe he had more going on than Wilt did in that dept.

Why didn't the Lakers pull it out that time? West was the series MVP after all

“Those f—ing balloons are staying up there.” —WFR, 5/5/69

[GOATcards]

ChatGPT conversation about which players have the most compelling GOAT, top 3, top 5, etc. cases

Notable how the rankings change around depending on the specific prompts

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

After the '24 POY shares are tallied, the significant change is with Joker:

Bron - 10.264
Mike - 6.992
Kareem - 5.826
Timmy - 5.512
Magic - 4.909
Mr. Russell - 4.821
Shaq - 4.751
Joker - 4.315
Larry - 4.057
Chef - 3.899
Kobe - 3.803
Wilt - 3.596
Karl - 3.394
Hakeem - 3.197
Doc - 3.028
KG - 3.020
KD - 2.906
Giannis - 2.721

since obviously this cannot be, the 1%-per-year timeline adjustment must be off, and/or this is just a ranking from ~14-18 RealGM gatekeepers who are obviously biased toward the no-defense-playing, 1-ring-only Joker; best to leave the voting up to the chatbots from now on

Originally Posted by Torro

Bron by far top1, Timmy at 4th and Joker in front of Kobe makes this list a joke, is that the purpose of it or you really serious? Have you ever heard anyone saying that Tim Duncan is the GOAT?

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't dismiss a list or argument right off if it looks counter-intuitive; I would approach with skepticism and figure out why the discrepency between the intuitions and the list/arguments.

The RealGM gatekeepers have done a ranking that puts MJ at #3 and I don't think that their consensus view gets it right. I don't think when building a franchise around a player that Kareem is the better pick over MJ. Their ranking appears to weight longevity a lot more than I would. MVP Award Shares and Finals performances are more significant there, and it's well-known how much of Kareem's MVP Shares/Awards are era-dependent. (Their raw Player of Year shares also overrate him because of era effects for reasons I've mentioned earlier in the thread.)

Perhaps Tallboy (the chief curator of these projects at RealGM, I believe) can weigh in with insights if he's watching these days.

I'll try to keep things relatively short so I'll cut to the chase:

I think MJ has the most storied career of any of them. His 6-for-6 Finals showings is *with* nearly 2 full seasons taken off in the middle. He has no Finals chokes like LeBron, none of Bron's flop or blooper/Shaqtin' reels. I don't knock Bron in the least for team-hopping/ring-chasing, it's what anyone would do in his situation (Cavs game him bupkus to work with his first stretch there). But MJ, his highlight reels are the best, he didn't need longevity (career stat-padding) to prove himself, his Bulls had a higher strength rating in '93 than Hakeem's '94-95 Rockets by roughly 30 Elo points, his MVP Shares would very likely exceed Bron's if he didn't leave the league like he did, his (timeline-adjusted) POY Shares would be considerably closer. Even when he came back from baseball, he was dropping a double-nickle all of 5 games in. His career showed that his 63-point game against the '86 Celtics wasn't exactly a fluke.

His 2nd retirement also deprives him of more career accolades/stats/shares, and so? What more did he really need to do to prove his case?

Also of significance IMHO is his not feeling the need to crown himself the GOAT the way Bron did. When asked about the GOAT argument, MJ said "how do you compare across eras? Mr. Russell has 11 rings." Who knows what he's really thinking, but he basically lets his record speak for itself. This is also why I'm inclined to take Mr. Russell or Timmy in a hypothetical draft/build-around, their intangibles/personality are such that they don't need to do this self-crowning stuff. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe in the hypothetical timeline-adjusted league with hypothetical comparable supporting casts, Bron delivers more rings. MJ left that up to the imagination, Bron needs to tell you.

I don't think Joker's placement in the ranking above is a joke. Different eras. Ring counts these days especially need contextualizing. Bubblemurray showed up for all of 2 playoff runs, was injured for another 2 in between, and hasn't been voted All-Star or All-NBA. So there's that. The '23 playoff run showed what Joker is capable of with adequate support. We might not see a 3-time MVP again, given the talent (competition for awards/shares) the league has to draw from going forward.

[GOATcards]

possibly tangentially related, I picked up a few NBA books at impulse-buy retail price especially based on look, this is among them

https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/ti.../9780762496297

the 10 dynasties are: Mikan Lakers, Russell Celts, Magic Lakers, Larry Celts, Bad Boys, MJ Bulls, Shaq and Kobe Lakers, Timmy Spurs, "King Dynasty," and Steph Warriors (near-dynasties are the last chapter: Dr. J Sixers, Hakeem Rockets, West Lakers, Miami Heatles, Lew Alcindor Bucks, Frazier Knicks)