Messi's brother doing his on-card signing during 2017-18

[AnthonyCorona]

I signed a bunch for Mike Trout, I dunno what the big deal is


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[fadster]

Originally Posted by Mitch

But they don't look different over time - it's two different autographs that are consistently the same for each style. So it's seemingly less sloppiness and a but more odd than that.

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This is the issue with putting it down to variation. His auto seems very consistent, apart from we're meant to belive a one year period in 2018 when he suddenly started signing differently, before reverting to his old sig without skipping a beat.

Also a little surprising to hear the number of people saying they either knew about this or suspected it was the case. Especially someone from BGS when BGS have graded some of the suspect autos.

[jonycards]

The one from Gold looks so bad man..

[Anish]

Originally Posted by Gin&Juice

Why are we surprised that sigs look different over time and across products? If I sign my name 200 times, sig 1 looks different than sig 200. And if I come back and sign again a year later, the sigs will look different again. Sometimes the paper is tilted a bit, sometimes you take a little more time and complete a loop, sometimes you scribble a bit more.

To be honest, other than the slant of the L (is it backwards or straight heading into the loop at the bottom), the Messi sigs essentially look the same. Is the slant in the one letter enough to conclude that one is a forgery? Maybe, but I don’t think it is so obvious. Would certainly want more info to be convinced.

Yeah, exactly. There’s variation in the eminence ones as well in how LEO is written.

Could there be forgery? Sure. But what has been shown here is extremely weak evidence.

The Luka Doncic “real” and “fake” autos looked completely different and several “experts” said they were from different people. Turns out they are all variations of Luka’s signature. Much ado about nothing, just like this.

[MonsterTruck20]

Originally Posted by Anish

Could there be forgery? Sure. But what has been shown here is extremely weak evidence.

What do you need? A picture of his brother signing the cards?
The pattern is completely different. Anyone who collects Messi autographs should be able to see that.

[Ianhatcher]

I'm surprised no one noticed that before. How does a person's signature change and then go back to what is was previously unless someone else signed for them? That looks pretty bad to me.

[49ersSF]

I just checked my Messi auto on the 2017 Leaf Q. It looks like Messi signed that one

[Anish]

So…




One is fake and one is real?

[Gin&Juice]

So, take a look at the last two Obsidian Private Signings that have finished on EBay (one 11/30 and the other 12/16). Is it the consensus that one is fake and one is real?

[MonsterTruck20]

Originally Posted by Anish

So…




One is fake and one is real?

Yes, that is a perfect example of the different signing patterns. It is not just the looped vs triangular L. There is so much more wrong with the sig on the second card.

Look at the LEO, specifically the L. He usually does not use two strikes for the L. This was done better in some of the other fakes, but awful in this case.

In addition, the M usually ends fading ever so slightly to the right or at least straight when Leo signs. All the sigs with the triangular pattern fade strongly to the left.




There are so many clear signs that those cards were signed by two different people.

[YayNJ]

hands up who in this thread is a qualified graphologist?

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by YayNJ

hands up who in this thread is a qualified graphologist?

My brother is, but he's got me to post here about it as he can't be bothered.

[WHyFLy]

Unfortunately, as much as we can keep debating on whether or not it is fake, given the evidence of how the market reacted to Luka's signature, there will be no effect on his market. Unless we definitively have a forgery such as the Dak Auto Pen Machine incident, this will just be another "well it makes you wonder" type of incident.

[MonsterTruck20]

Originally Posted by WHyFLy

Unfortunately, as much as we can keep debating on whether or not it is fake, given the evidence of how the market reacted to Luka's signature, there will be no effect on his market. Unless we definitively have a forgery such as the Dak Auto Pen Machine incident, this will just be another "well it makes you wonder" type of incident.

I followed the Doncic debate and given how simple his signature is, there was never going to be any consensus.

Messi has a very unique signature with clear, distinct and conclusive patterns.

[Ianhatcher]

I think like the Luka situation there are a lot of people that have a lot to lose on this and they will dismiss it and that is expected. Pretty sure the post of Soccer Breakers FC already got deleted or at least I can't find it. That's pretty telling when people suppress even having a discussion. Sounds like Twitter...

I was honestly thinking about buying a Messi this year but now I'll wait to see if Panini does Eminence this year. There is enough of a difference to turn me away as a buyer but will it effect the value much? Probably not without Messi or Panini saying it's true which isn't going to happen.

[gomiamigo]

Flawless confo'd real.

[rogermaris]

Originally Posted by Ianhatcher

I think like the Luka situation there are a lot of people that have a lot to lose on this and they will dismiss it and that is expected. Pretty sure the post of Soccer Breakers FC already got deleted or at least I can't find it. That's pretty telling when people suppress even having a discussion. Sounds like Twitter...

[djcuse]

Originally Posted by Ianhatcher

Pretty sure the post of Soccer Breakers FC already got deleted or at least I can't find it. That's pretty telling when people suppress even having a discussion.

The person who made the post on FB "Matt Burton" is also the
twitter user @autographsforme who originally asked Steve Grad the question.
That tweet has now since been deleted as well.

[SupermanBrandon]

...and Beckett still slabs them?

[MonsterTruck20]

Haven't seen a slabbed one yet but as long as they only slab the card without authenticating or even grading the autograph one can hardly blame them.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by MonsterTruck20

Haven't seen a slabbed one yet but as long as they only slab the card without authenticating or even grading the autograph one can hardly blame them.

Yes, you can. If their job is to authenticate the card, then they should authenticate the entire card. Same goes with the wiped off, then re-signed Trout and Pujols autos in PSA holders. Authenticators should not be allowed to limit their scope and let stuff like faked autographs and swapped patches go through just because they don't care to look. That's so weak.

[WHyFLy]

Originally Posted by MonsterTruck20

I followed the Doncic debate and given how simple his signature is, there was never going to be any consensus.

Messi has a very unique signature with clear, distinct and conclusive patterns.

I am pretty sure the distinction between Luka's autos were also very conclusive, but you will not a market discussion about this because way to many people have a lot to lose on this type of issue. As a result, until there is some sort of definitive response by Panini or Messi himself, this will result in the same ending as the Luka discussion: No Effect of Market.

With that being said, can this detour people from buying Messi autos in 17-18? Absolutely!

[Gin&Juice]

PSA has authenticated the auto that is being questioned: https://www.ebay.com/itm/28460224390...p2047675.l2557

BGS has given it a 10 auto grade several times: https://www.ebay.com/itm/20378499792...oAAOSwNgVh2RYf


https://www.ebay.com/itm/14434970773...Cclp%3A2047675

[MonsterTruck20]

Originally Posted by Gin&Juice

PSA has authenticated the auto that is being questioned: https://www.ebay.com/itm/28460224390...p2047675.l2557

BGS has given it a 10 auto grade several times: https://www.ebay.com/itm/20378499792...oAAOSwNgVh2RYf


https://www.ebay.com/itm/14434970773...Cclp%3A2047675

Unbelievable

[WHyFLy]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

Yes, you can. If their job is to authenticate the card, then they should authenticate the entire card. Same goes with the wiped off, then re-signed Trout and Pujols autos in PSA holders. Authenticators should not be allowed to limit their scope and let stuff like faked autographs and swapped patches go through just because they don't care to look. That's so weak.

You cannot compare swapped patches and wiped/re-signed autos to this situation. Those are proven 100% counterfeits or altered cards. The only comparison to this type of situation is the Luka situation or the Dak Auto-Pen. There is no conclusive consensus on this yet, all speculation. Until we have a definitive response by Panini or Messi, all of this can be suspected but not proven guilty. As a result, we will not see an effect on market. Additionally, the amount of money that is being questioned here is way to much and would be a nightmare. I don't expect we will see anything come to the spotlight and this will be another under the rug situation.

All that will happen is this will detour people from buying 17-18. Some people will avoid buying but majority will still buy even if questioned.