1997-98 Jordan PMG Green 006/100

[buybuymj]

I see why PSA graded it as altered and explained the right edge looks irregular.

Damn it, if this was in person it would take only few seconds to explain. This will take my time way more instead.

Here's pics of two Green, 001/100 and this 006/100.









When you take a closer look at the right edge, you can tell centering of both cards are pretty similar. Still, you can tell 006/100 is slightly more right centered on the back. That's pretty obvious when you focus at these red boxes, there's still little space on 001/100 at the right edge, between black and gray color, while there's no space on 006/100, focus on between bottom black half-circle and gray colored edge.









Then what, since 006/100 is slightly more right centered than 001/100, 006/100 must have more space on the left edge of back, the right edge of front in other words.

Instead, 006/100 has even less space than 001/100 on that opposed edge as well. Again, you can tell it when you focus on these red boxes.









No, it doesn't add up if it was not altered. These are exactly the same cards.

You remember famous trimmed Exquisite Limited Logos LBJ 05/50 from BNC's LBJ Exquisite altered thread that its top edge was trimmed? With very irregular cutting on the top edge? You could notice that the trimmed white top edge was very unnatural.









Again, focus on these red boxes, you can notice the same kind of cutting here.






Ironically, there's only one area on the front where the edge has seamless white showing which is irregular, and that's the same area.






I think these are enough reasons that PSA graded it as altered.

[theLUCKYshow]

buybuymj always bringin' it!

I didnt realize some of these cards were only partially trimmed along the edges. I always thought they trimmed the entire length of the edge.


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[KhalDrogo]

buybuymj is completely right again. The distance between the PSA slab and that edge varies as you move along the edge, with it measuring shortest over the area he marked. Was it a bad trim job that someone stopped because they messed up?

Also, PWCC "attests" that this card is not trimmed.

[TMILL]

great analysis buybuy!

[Soleternity]

Great, thorough breakdown. There's clearly a slight curve on part of the front right/back left edge.

Is that enough to designate it "altered"? No, not without more evidence.

To get such a clean, slight curve like that, the plausible possibilities range from:
-factory miscut
-damaged during packaging
-trim-job-gone-awry that stopped halfway through
-someone trimmed a curve into the edge

None of the trimming explanations make sense. It is irrational to trim this card in that manner. It adds no value. There is no way the card looks better now than it did before the slight curve was added. And with all the chipping/wear already present along all the edges and corners, it makes no sense to focus on just one spot on an edge.

I'd assume PSA has reason beyond the presence of a slight curve to designate it "altered." They should make a statement on this grade. Especially after PWCC essentially called them out for it.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Soleternity

Great, thorough breakdown. There's clearly a slight curve on part of the front right/back left edge.

Is that enough to designate it "altered"? No, not without more evidence.

To get such a clean, slight curve like that, the plausible possibilities range from:
-factory miscut
-damaged during packaging
-trim-job-gone-awry that stopped halfway through
-someone trimmed a curve into the edge

None of the trimming explanations make sense. It is irrational to trim this card in that manner. It adds no value. There is no way the card looks better now than it did before the slight curve was added. And with all the chipping/wear already present along all the edges and corners, it makes no sense to focus on just one spot on an edge.

I'd assume PSA has reason beyond the presence of a slight curve to designate it "altered." They should make a statement on this grade. Especially after PWCC essentially called them out for it.

I do agree with your last statement. It's absurd for Brent to make that claim when their whole schtick is that they aren't graders and they rely on third party companies to judge condition.

I do think a failed trim job is pretty plausible. The right and top edges could be trimmed 1/64" and still slip by PSA or BGS. They could do the left edge too if they got greedy. Could turn a PSA 5 into a 7, or a BGS 6 into an 8.

[UltimateDeron]

BuyBuyMJ: Good work. Do you think 1/100 is trimmed too? The left side has so much space in the PSA holder. It looks much thinner than 6/100.

[anusinha]

Wow, it does look like a small chunk of that right edge is chopped off

[2010GBPackers]

The balls by Brent to go over PSA's head on this one and [guarantee] that the card was not altered. Wow! He has to know the collecting community would be looking at this card very hard. Thanks to buybuymj for the fantastic breakdown.

[Soleternity]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I do agree with your last statement. It's absurd for Brent to make that claim when their whole schtick is that they aren't graders and they rely on third party companies to judge condition.

I do think a failed trim job is pretty plausible. The right and top edges could be trimmed 1/64" and still slip by PSA or BGS. They could do the left edge too if they got greedy. Could turn a PSA 5 into a 7, or a BGS 6 into an 8.

PWCC has assumed the role of condition assessment to some extent. They've been affixing the PWCC-HE and PWCC-HQ stickers to cards that they think are exemplary examples for a given grade since at least 2016. The logical implication of that is they inspect every card that comes in, and the elite few (in their opinion) get the sticker. Thus, they are, whether explicitly or by omission, judging/grading the condition of every card that they list.

Here's a question I'd like for PSA to answer: How much evidence is needed, and how strongly must that evidence suggest alteration, before designating a card as altered? Publishing their standard would be helpful. Zero chance it happens.

I agree that there are financial gains to be realized by converting this card from, say, PSA 5 to 7. This alteration in no way would've achieved that kind of bump, so I agree that the likeliest trimming explanation is that it was a botched job.

With that said, a botched job--the likeliest of the trimming explanations--strikes me as highly improbable. I can't imagine a rational person endeavoring to trim this copy. Even if they perfectly cleaned up the front right edge, it would have made little difference to the overall grade. Look at the other 3 edges and the corners. It wouldn't have bumped the overall grade from PSA 5 to 7. So, were they planning to trim all edges? They'd be crazy to do that. Look at how deep the chipping runs. After trimming all four edges, or even two edges, they would've needed to take off so much cardboard from the card that it would've been plainly altered to the naked eye. I just can't see a rational person attempting that.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

The balls by Brent to go over PSA's head on this one and [guarantee] that the card was not altered. Wow! He has to know the collecting community would be looking at this card very hard. Thanks to buybuymj for the fantastic breakdown.

I’ve PM’d PWCC Marketplace for a comment.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

See but where you’re wrong at is you’re trying to decide your appreciation level just based on the cards themselves. What you gotta do is you gotta, you gotta imagine the kajillion billion yen the pmg’s are worth and how that’ll make you feel knowing you’re a big baller shot caller owning one.

Then you’ll understand why you actually like the beat to crap edges and plain single color background better.

Trust me I lift.

God Bless.

[AbraCalabro]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

The balls by Brent to go over PSA's head on this one and [guarantee] that the card was not altered. Wow! He has to know the collecting community would be looking at this card very hard. Thanks to buybuymj for the fantastic breakdown.

He will agree with PSA's assessments when it's convenient to his bottom line and challenge them when it's not.

The card being discussed here was doctored, it was originally a SGC4 and became a PSA7 after the doctoring.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...&postcount=409

It was sold in SGC4 form for 6600 dollars and then sold for $52,351.00 as PSA7.

SGC4 sale:
https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...maggio-rookie/

here is a link to the PSA7 auction, item description has to be clicked to see the pics:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1936-Goudey...orig_cvip=true

here is a link to the item description:
http://vi.vipr.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayI...1&secureDesc=0

PWCC is dirty too.

I wouldn't be surprised if this pmg green was a botched alteration.

Oh yeah, forgot to add this:



Be cautious, if you're bidding.

[ehp6737]

Originally Posted by Lee42

I am always in the minority........but I actually think the base card looks better than the Red and the Green.

Sure its not numbered but its a cool card and I love the different colours on it and the design which gets lost in the red and green of the PMG!!

I have the best of both worlds....sort of...hahaha.

Pop 1 base card with a PMG stamp on the back (no serial number though).

[buybuymj]

If the 006/100 was not altered this can't be explainable. This is also the way you can notice very easily that something's wrong with MJ's trimmed PMG Red BGS 9.5.





Is that enough to designate it "altered"? Of course, when you have a card with slightly curved edge and try to grade it, your card will be returned as altered most of the time. This is not Samsung's curved edge from my country, I never seen 1997-98 PMG with curved edge except this one. It could be just scan with a very slight chance, still the difference of red boxes above is obvious.

I don't think whoever tried to alter it, that curved edge was exactly what he wanted. Look, people didn't realize this right edge was slightly curved until I pointed it out, right? That's the trick of trimming, it's not that noticeable until you know something about that. Until you found a picture of that LBJ Exquisite LL 05/50 in original condition, it's really, really tough to notice that the card was trimmed later.

We don't know what was the 006/100's original condition. However if someone tried to recolor on that right edge and after some trying he quickly realized that it's very noticeable, then it's pretty plausible that he wanted to remove that part.

Listen, we already saw Kobe's PMG Red with recoloring, at least I saw it before from eBay. MJ's PMG Green was not that holy grail in 90s'. Two or three MJ PMG Green copies were pulled from my country in the past, of course it was one of the best cards at the time, but it was not that untouchable, not even close to today's value.

Remember, it's a card which was selling around $5k until mid 2000s'. That's even a lot less than the value of today's Kobe PMG Red. You think it's impossible to alter a card of this caliber like that? Of course in today's market. Is it that impossible to alter a $5k card, in the past? I'd say no.

Originally Posted by UltimateDeron

BuyBuyMJ: Good work. Do you think 1/100 is trimmed too? The left side has so much space in the PSA holder. It looks much thinner than 6/100.

I think I already checked 001/100 in the past, I don't think it's altered at all, the reason there's a lot of space on the left you're talking about is because these PMG cards are so thin. One of the most thin cards ever made. I don't know what to call these sides in the red boxes below in english, but these cards are too thin and they can enter that space, that's why you see a lot of space on the left but at the same time you don't see the right side in red box from PSA holder.

[GOLDPRIZM]

Originally Posted by chuckerrrr

Cant remember what number episode it is. Although it is with the Card Hobby Official guys in China.


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Thank you! Found it on episode #14 (around the 28 min mark). Pretty interesting, its hard to believe but I do know RB21 was the King of these PMG Greens back in the day so who knows.

@buybuymj- great work on all the detailed pics and info you added to this

[Sjpwa]

Buybuymj nice work you

[Sprewell8]

Card is already at 57k.

[Sprewell8]

I think it's going 1 million dollars

[pinguino17]

150K after a few hours.

Has PWCC officially lost all credibility as a legitimate cosigner and seller?

[sjay2k]

Great analysis by buybuymj.

Looks like PSA nailed it, the card is almost certainly (a) authentic, (b) trimmed.

It's a shame to see that such an iconic card was trimmed. I still think it goes 500-700k

[15ncounting]

Beautiful Work! It'll be great if someone can create an auction on eBay, put this info up so everyone can see or even send an email to PSA on how PWCC is trying to go above and beyond their assessment. Again, great great work, it is greatly appreciated!

[TheRoundMound]

Originally Posted by Sprewell8

I think it's going 1 million dollars

Beside all those great detective work in this thread, totally agree with you. If I would own that card I wont sell it under that price

[mrdallas]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I’ve PM’d PWCC Marketplace for a comment.

I am anxious/curious to hear what they have to say. Please post when they do if you don't mind.

I am not shocked that PWCC is trying to claim the card was not altered, I am more shocked that they "Attest" (be a witness to; certify formally) it isn't trimmed. With the $$ that this card will cost one can assume that the buyer has the means necessary to bring a lawsuit if they so choose if the card comes back as trimmed.

Unless the buyer simply does not care

[ih8ca]

If I was going to buy this card. I would fly up to Portland and view it.