Jordan's premier card growth

[Hoopsfanatic]

Comparing these two uber-high powered cards - the 84 Star XRC and the 86 Fleer RC in these polls is, IMO, nothing more than a popularity contest in which the Fleer should win. It is a card in clearly, the most widely collected mainstream basketball set. The PSA and BGS registries obviously backs this up. There is no dispute there.

But the POP report data provided by PSA and BGS reveals something that some people just do not get or realize. It is the sheer FACT that the 1984-85 Star 101 XRC in "Mint" 9 is not just rarer, but WAY WAY WAY more freaking rarer than the 1986-87 Fleer RC in "Gem Mint".

This is NOT a "51 Bowman vs. 52 Topps Commerce Comet" comparison here.

To put things in perspective, here are the numbers from the pop reports of the two main grading services (as of this writing, today, July 16, 2016)

1984-85 Star #101 XRC in MINT
BGS Mint 9 ....... 31

1986-87 Fleer #57 RC in GEM MINT
PSA Gem Mint 10 ........ 251
BGS Gem Mint 9.5 ....... 431
Total ........................ 682

682 to 31

That is an eye-popping ratio of 22 to 1.

Even if we were to take out the BGS 9.5's, that is still an incredible ratio of over 8 to 1. Logically speaking, the ratio is not going to change much over time as the Star is just naturally rarer, plain and simple. (estimate of 3,000-4,000 print run of Star vs. 100,000-200,000 Fleer).

I love the Fleer as much as the next guy. I have both cards (disclaimer, I have a 1986-87 Fleer in PSA 10 and a Star 1984-85 Star BGS 8). But, straight-up, I would trade ANYONE my 1986 Fleer 10 for a 1984 Star 9, anytime, everytime. Just PM me !

With 251 Fleers in a 10 and one popping up every week on the Bay (as well as all the hundreds of BGS 9.5 out there for potential crossovers), I can replace the PSA 10s. A Star 101 in Mint 9 ? Well, you can count the number that has been publicly offered in the last two years in one hand.

Another thing people just do not realize, is how hard it is to find that card decently well "centered". Seriously, all you just ask yourselves, have you seen one ?

I get all the arguments in regards to the demand for both cards. But in my opinion, the HUGE discrepancy in the pop numbers are so staggering , the supply side of the equation and how difficult it is to find a Star XRC in MINT grade can not be ignored. Especially if one is talking about, growth, investments, long term, yadda yadda, yadda

[aro13]

If PSA ever decides to grade Star Company basketball and the Star RC gets added to registry sets the demand will be even greater for the Star card.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by aro13

If PSA ever decides to grade Star Company basketball and the Star RC gets added to registry sets the demand will be even greater for the Star card.

Does anyone know the particular reason why PSA refuses to grade them? I mean PSA grades everything under the sun from buy back autos to 18xx's tobacco cards. Makes no sense to me.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by aro13

If PSA ever decides to grade Star Company basketball and the Star RC gets added to registry sets the demand will be even greater for the Star card.

in PSA 10 only though

[Panthersfans]

Went with the Star. Just not many out there, much less at a 9.

[aro13]

Does anyone know the particular reason why PSA refuses to grade them? I mean PSA grades everything under the sun from buy back autos to 18xx's tobacco cards. Makes no sense to me.

I think they got burned early on when they graded them and had some buy backs. They then stopped grading them.

It is similar to the 1928 FroJoy's where PSA will not grade them.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by aro13

I think they got burned early on when they graded them and had some buy backs. They then stopped grading them.

It is similar to the 1928 FroJoy's where PSA will not grade them.

I can see that being a reason.

[devo]

Originally Posted by aro13

If PSA ever decides to grade Star Company basketball and the Star RC gets added to registry sets the demand will be even greater for the Star card.

Originally Posted by COMCMax

Star 101

The rise of the popularity might force PSA hands into grading them again. That would send them through the roof with the set registry nuts.

Sorry guys, but PSA will not be grading the Star 101 anytime soon. I spoke directly with Joe Orlando (President of PSA) about this over the phone about a month ago, and he said that while it would be great for the hobby if PSA started grading them again, it will not happen until his graders feel 100% comfortable grading them. He said that they have revisited this issue multiple times since he became the President of PSA in 2002, and they've never even come close to deciding to grade them again. It's just not happening.

[scqg]

Originally Posted by devo

Sorry guys, but PSA will not be grading the Star 101 anytime soon. I spoke directly with Joe Orlando (President of PSA) about this over the phone about a month ago, and he said that while it would be great for the hobby if PSA started grading them again, it will not happen until his graders feel 100% comfortable grading them. He said that they have revisited this issue multiple times since he became the President of PSA in 2002, and they've never even come close to deciding to grade them again. It's just not happening.

The guys who can help PSA on Star are all in BO. PSA just dont wanna do it lol.

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by scqg

The guys who can help PSA on Star are all in BO. PSA just dont wanna do it lol.

I would think most Star cards are already in BGS slabs so if PSA were to grade Star cards, most of their submissions would be for BGS crossovers which would inevitably lead to grading discrepancies between the 2 companies. Since there aren't thousands of Star cards in existence PSA wouldnt get nearly as many submissions than say Fleer. There is also increased liability given the value of Star cards and the risk of paying for a graded counterfeit, which is what caused them to stop grading Star cards in the first place when a counterfeit was incorrectly graded as authentic by one of their graders

Strictly from a business standpoint it would not be profitable for PSA to grade Star cards at this stage in the game. They have cut their nose to spite their face regarding grading Star cards and disserviced the hobby as a result

They will just continue to grade Fleer cards as there are literally thousands of them with additional revenue coming from resubmissions, crossovers, and re-encapsuation of older submissions to their newer hologram cases.......$$$$$$$

You are also seeing early 90s Fleers MJs now getting slabbed with PSA 10s and then sent to these consignment firms

Seems like the latest, greatest trend in this hobby as everyone makes money on this game

Though it is pretty pathetic how PSA (A Professional Sports Authenticator btw....LOL!) views this more as a business than instilling integrity into this hobby by grading Star cards alongside BGS

Its a complete joke

[Patriot12]

Originally Posted by tommywillsburg

buy back all day everyday, only 23 in the world and signed by jordan

not like you can pickup one even if you wanted to

any company can buy back 23 more and do it again

[exoticprince]

Originally Posted by Patriot12

any company can buy back 23 more and do it again

Any company ? Upper deck owns exclusive right to MJ. If they never decide to do it again it's not happening. Unless upper deck get bought by someone else

[Patriot12]

Originally Posted by exoticprince

Any company ? Upper deck owns exclusive right to MJ. If they never decide to do it again it's not happening. Unless upper deck get bought by someone else

Out of the three cards listed, the buyback of the Fleer 57 RC can be bought, signed and inserted into packs at anytime in the future.

The Star 101 PSA 9 & Fleer 57 PSA 10 are set in stone along with any other MJ rare serial numbered insert & signed jersey cards that were originally pulled from packs.

There are so many possibilities that the future holds

[exoticprince]

Originally Posted by Patriot12

Out of the three cards listed, the buyback of the Fleer 57 RC can be bought, signed and inserted into packs at anytime in the future.

The Star 101 PSA 9 & Fleer 57 PSA 10 are set in stone along with any other MJ rare serial numbered insert & signed jersey cards that were originally pulled from packs.

There are so many possibilities that the future holds

It's always a big "if" upper deck will ever do a buyback of the rookie again. First one in 06/07 was 20th anniversary. Next one will be 50th anniversary ? . It's just not known if they'll ever do it again.

On the fleer psa 10's, they are growing and growing by the week, and many bgs 9.5's can easily cross to psa 10's. See what the psa 10 pop report will be in 1 year. They've reached over 250 and still growing. The bgs 9 xrc is more rare and a different story.

[Jnb0123]

Personally give me a BGS 10 Fleer Rookie over all of these.

[aro13]

Sorry guys, but PSA will not be grading the Star 101 anytime soon. I spoke directly with Joe Orlando (President of PSA) about this over the phone about a month ago, and he said that while it would be great for the hobby if PSA started grading them again, it will not happen until his graders feel 100% comfortable grading them. He said that they have revisited this issue multiple times since he became the President of PSA in 2002, and they've never even come close to deciding to grade them again. It's just not happening.

Thanks for the information. He also said they would never consider half-grades so there is hope

I would think most Star cards are already in BGS slabs so if PSA were to grade Star cards, most of their submissions would be for BGS crossovers which would inevitably lead to grading discrepancies between the 2 companies.

BGS has graded 489 #101 Jordan Star Company cards - there are still plenty out there left to be graded.

Strictly from a business standpoint it would not be profitable for PSA to grade Star cards at this stage in the game.

That is probably the bottom line. PSA is in business to make money. If they felt it would be profitable they would grade Star Company. To this point, they feel it is not worth it.

[ThoseBackPages]

"many bgs 9.5's can easily cross to psa 10's."

Easily? LOL

"See what the psa 10 pop report will be in 1 year.""

It really doesnt matter what the pop report is. demand will always be high for the most iconic NBA card of all time.

[exoticprince]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

"many bgs 9.5's can easily cross to psa 10's."

Easily? LOL

"See what the psa 10 pop report will be in 1 year.""

It really doesnt matter what the pop report is. demand will always be high for the most iconic NBA card of all time.

1) Have you seen the quality of the recent psa 10's coming out ? There are many bgs 9.5's that are superior to the quality of many psa 10's tat have been coming out. This is a simple fact.

2) Are you aware of the increase in the number of psa 10's over the past year ?

Will demand be there. Of course there will. I am a long time MJ RC collector myself. Will it sustain at the 35k sales with the number of psa 10's that have been rolling out each month? The thread is about growth. How many people will pay more than 35k for a psa 10 when the pop report reaches 500 ?

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by exoticprince

1) Have you seen the quality of the recent psa 10's coming out ? There are many bgs 9.5's that are superior to the quality of many psa 10's tat have been coming out. This is a simple fact.

2) Are you aware of the increase in the number of psa 10's over the past year ?

Will demand be there. Of course there will. I am a long time MJ RC collector myself. Will it sustain at the 35k sales with the number of psa 10's that have been rolling out each month? The thread is about growth. How many people will pay more than 35k for a psa 10 when the pop report reaches 500 ?

1) No, i dont pay that much attention. Having said that, i dont think PSA's standards have dropped, and dont see it "easy" to crossover BGS 9.5's. Crack out and submit? Perhaps. But not straight crossovers.

2) No, i dont pay attention to that either! lol As a collector, this card is not ever going to be in my range, but i hear what you are saying as far as sustaining value as discussed in this thread.

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by exoticprince

1) Have you seen the quality of the recent psa 10's coming out ? There are many bgs 9.5's that are superior to the quality of many psa 10's tat have been coming out. This is a simple fact.

2) Are you aware of the increase in the number of psa 10's over the past year ?

Will demand be there. Of course there will. I am a long time MJ RC collector myself. Will it sustain at the 35k sales with the number of psa 10's that have been rolling out each month? The thread is about growth. How many people will pay more than 35k for a psa 10 when the pop report reaches 500 ?

100% correct in all respects

[ThoseBackPages]

I think another thing to keep in mind is how truly ICONIC his 86F is.

MOST extremely casual card fans know what his 86F looks like, some non-collectors would probably know what it is as well. Just like the Wagner and the Mantle.

His (hell ALL) Star Co NBA cards all tend to blend together outside those that collect basketball cards.

I know, i know, those that have Fleer will be die-hard about Fleer and vice-versa.

[aro13]

1) Have you seen the quality of the recent psa 10's coming out ? There are many bgs 9.5's that are superior to the quality of many psa 10's tat have been coming out. This is a simple fact.

2) Are you aware of the increase in the number of psa 10's over the past year ?

Will demand be there. Of course there will. I am a long time MJ RC collector myself. Will it sustain at the 35k sales with the number of psa 10's that have been rolling out each month? The thread is about growth. How many people will pay more than 35k for a psa 10 when the pop report reaches 500 ?

Many vintage collectors believe that PSA is grading tougher now then at any point in their history.

I do not follow modern POP reports too closely but the 86 Fleer cards I have followed have not risen in POP that much over the past year. Johnny Moore a notoriously tough card in PSA 10, sold for $11 K last year. You would have thought that would have brought a lot of Moore cards out of storage or cards looking for bumps. There were only 3 more Moore's graded a PSA 10 in the last year and they are still selling in the 11K to 13K range.

It is very possible a lot of the PSA 10's in the new holders are cards that were graded a while back but have been re-holdered by the sellers as they realize that the new holder is better security and the perception among many is that grading is tougher now.

[Vipertron]

Buyback!

[Jay9Suited]

Originally Posted by Patriot12

Out of the three cards listed, the buyback of the Fleer 57 RC can be bought, signed and inserted into packs at anytime in the future.

The Star 101 PSA 9 & Fleer 57 PSA 10 are set in stone along with any other MJ rare serial numbered insert & signed jersey cards that were originally pulled from packs.

There are so many possibilities that the future holds

Incorrect. Jordan has agreed to no longer sign Fleer RCs.

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by Jay9Suited

Incorrect. Jordan has agreed to no longer sign Fleer RCs.

I may be mistaken but I believe the agreement is he will not sign them in person or through his camp due to his contract with upper deck. It's does not restrict upper deck from having him sign them for a buyback program.