Patrick Mahomes Prices

[KardsC1]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHatesJazz

LMAO. Nice Try.

Brady won on every team he was on. Before him, the most super bowls a qb won was 4. And Allen could have won 10? Hahahahaha.

We are not debating golf or tennis…that fact that some people forget this a team sport with 3 phases is beyond me…you can play excellent ball as a qb and still lose if your defense is Swiss cheese…of course the qb plays a big role …but he is not the end all

[49erRCCollector]

Originally Posted by KardsC1

We are not debating golf or tennis…that fact that some people forget this a team sport with 3 phases is beyond me…you can play excellent ball as a qb and still lose if your defense is Swiss cheese…of course the qb plays a big role …but he is not the end all

Josh Allen is not winning more than Brady on those Pats teams. That's ludicrous.

[daveyc1]

Originally Posted by Grid

You are confusing hybrid play, with being less complex. Many of these top tier modern QBs aren't running because they cant throw very well. They are doing both.

No one is buying that Harbaugh is a lazy coach, and thats why Lamar runs. Or that McDermott needs to dumb down Josh Allen. So he lets him run. Eluding a pass rush and buying time is now a sought after commodity in QB play. That is the "Mahomes Magic" you've heard for the past 8 seasons.

Being mobile and illusive is exactly what you want in todays NFL due to the speed of the game. And that speed lead to all the changes I already mentioned.

Max Protect and Manning or Brees picking people off from a clean pocket just isn't today's NFL. And it has nothing to do with rushing QBs to play. Sorry to be the one to tell you this.

nah, you are looking at it backwards. this is not an evolution of QB play, it is a devolution.

Historically, when a quarterback was drafted, they had the basics/mechanics down. that is not the case generally anymore. at the NFL level, coaches do not have the time to teach mechanics/basics, so they work with what they have. athleticism.

mobility/elusiveness is not what you NEED to succeed in todays NFL, it is what you have to rely on because so many young players do not understand basic mechanics/film study/progressions. how many modern QB's bail on a play after locking in on the first option and it isnt open.

I am sure part of it is the importance of getting great play out of a highly drafted QB's first 4-5 seasons when they are on short money and the rest of the roster can be of highest quality. once the QB's get to that second contract and are making 20% of the cap things get harder. it is easier to run a simpler offense for an inexperienced player and not waste their first season learning on the bench. this strategy is not condusive to long extended careers for those QB's though.

look, it is not just me saying this. Manning and Brady say the same thing. I have a feeling those guys know more about the QB position than all of us on this message board combined.

lack of readiness of QB's coming out of college has had a HUGE effect on the league.

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by daveyc1

not accurate. this perspective has been discussed at length. A big reason we are seeing so many running QB's is because QB development has slowed considerably in recent years. This is happening in both college and the NFL, because it is easier for players to play on instinct and rely on athleticism than to develop mechanics/endlessly study film and playbooks.

but remember, athleticism is the first thing to go.

in years past, Qb's drafted were often given a year to learn the pro game before they were thrown into the mix. now they are expected to play right away. this is why we are seeing less complex college schemes like RPO in the pro game. guys running around waiting for a defense to break down. no development time for young players

Brady and Manning have expressed this very thing. It is the "dumbing down" of QB play/offense in the NFL.

I believe that current QB's like patrick, josh, lamar etc could definitely run an offense as complicated as Bradys patriots offense was, it would just take a LOT of time and effort to learn it and learn how to play in the pocket and learn how to shorten their mechanics to get the ball out fast.

for example, this season, here are some TTT (time to throw) stats (in seconds):
Maye 2.75
Allen 2.80
Mahomes 2.67
Allen had his fastest ttt game in his career this season with a 2.27

45 year old Tom brady AVERAGED 2.27 seconds ttt in his last season with the Bucs. the other guys, minus Maye, should be in their athletic primes.

It takes an extreme amount of study/practice and skill to get to that level. and an extreme amount of off season work with WR to keep the skill level high.

this style of play also helps out the OL in a BIG way. you can more easily squeak by with a sub par line if the QB can get rid of the ball.

It also should be stated.

Tom Brady wasn't stupid when he "picked" his next team.
Bucs:
-Weak division, although they won as a WC
-HOFer Mike Evans was in his prime
-Chris Godwin was a solid 1B
-Gronk as a TE
-half the season with a nutcase, but very talented Antonio Brown

You can have a TTT approaching 2 when you have the sheer amount of weapons they had.

Their defense was also a top 6 scoring defense and a top 8 yards allowed defense.

That roster was not simply just Tom Brady. Tom was just cast off New England in 2019

Funny, Mike Evans numbers dropped from 2019 to 2020, then went up after Tom left and Baker arrived.

Chris Godwin had a career year in 2019 with Jameis Winston, then had arguably his worst year in a 5 year stretch in 2020 with Brady (granted, 2 less games than previous year)

But yes, according to those bunkered in igloos in NE, Tom did it all.

[JohnnyHatesJazz]

Originally Posted by KardsC1

We are not debating golf or tennis…that fact that some people forget this a team sport with 3 phases is beyond me…you can play excellent ball as a qb and still lose if your defense is Swiss cheese…of course the qb plays a big role …but he is not the end all

You’re an excellent poster but even excellent posters have ludicrous takes. And this is beyond ludicrous!!! I’m not going to derail this thread destroying your cockeyed take.

Now, as for Mahomes, it would be malpractice if the chiefs didn’t draft Jeremiah love if he’s available when they pick.

[JohnnyHatesJazz]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

It also should be stated.

Tom Brady wasn't stupid when he "picked" his next team.
Bucs:
-Weak division, although they won as a WC
-HOFer Mike Evans was in his prime
-Chris Godwin was a solid 1B
-Gronk as a TE
-half the season with a nutcase, but very talented Antonio Brown

You can have a TTT approaching 2 when you have the sheer amount of weapons they had.

Their defense was also a top 6 scoring defense and a top 8 yards allowed defense.

That roster was not simply just Tom Brady. Tom was just cast off New England in 2019

Funny, Mike Evans numbers dropped from 2019 to 2020, then went up after Tom left and Baker arrived.

Chris Godwin had a career year in 2019 with Jameis Winston, then had arguably his worst year in a 5 year stretch in 2020 with Brady (granted, 2 less games than previous year)

But yes, according to those bunkered in igloos in NE, Tom did it all.

He’s the straw that stirred the drink.

[Tea10]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

It also should be stated.

Tom Brady wasn't stupid when he "picked" his next team.
Bucs:
-Weak division, although they won as a WC
-HOFer Mike Evans was in his prime
-Chris Godwin was a solid 1B
-Gronk as a TE
-half the season with a nutcase, but very talented Antonio Brown

You can have a TTT approaching 2 when you have the sheer amount of weapons they had.

Their defense was also a top 6 scoring defense and a top 8 yards allowed defense.

That roster was not simply just Tom Brady. Tom was just cast off New England in 2019

Funny, Mike Evans numbers dropped from 2019 to 2020, then went up after Tom left and Baker arrived.

Chris Godwin had a career year in 2019 with Jameis Winston, then had arguably his worst year in a 5 year stretch in 2020 with Brady (granted, 2 less games than previous year)

But yes, according to those bunkered in igloos in NE, Tom did it all.

The Bucs were 7-9 the year prior and missed the playoffs entirely. Jameis wasn't a bottom 5-10 QB arguably. Brady joined, basically ran the offense for them and they won a SB immediately. They went 11-5. Then they went 13-4 the next year with Brady and I recall them barely losing to the Rams, otherwise they might get there again I was thinking in real time.

I'm not sure what your point is. So you think a 40 year old free agent QB should go to the worst team possible? Maybe the Browns or Raiders instead? That would be brain dead. Of course he's going to go to a good roster and a team that has a chance to win a SB. And how many QBs have won rings (actually starting) with two different teams? It's not "easy" to do regardless.

[Tea10]

Originally Posted by Grid

Not accurate. The league doesn't have so many mobile QBs now, due to both the NCAA and NFL refusing to develop QBs. That's just lazy...

Its all a game of chess. Not lack of coaching.

Originally Posted by dbpsooner

It seems like some in here conflate the idea that having the ability to run means you are not a pocket passer. Guys like Brady and Manning did not have the physical ability to scramble like Allen, Mahomes and even Rodgers. Due to their lack of mobility, they were forced to be field generals from the pocket...

I disagree. I used to follow prospects and drafts very closely and there has been a clear and obvious trend of QBs who do have some form of mobility or a plus ability to be runners. Look who's been drafted recently in the 1st round:

2025: Ward, Dart
2024: Williams, Daniels, Maye, Penix, McCarthy, Nix
2023: Young, Stroud, Richardson
2022: Pickett (terrible QB class, 20th overall first selection)
2021: Lawrence, Wilson, Lance, Fields, Jones

It's harder to find guys who don't run the ball as part of their core game than who cannot. Maye is a guy who can be a pocket passer, but he can run very well and that gives him a huge plus value. Ward/Young/Stroud don't look to run but can and do. Guys like McCarthy/Dart/Nix ran a ton in college and are the perfect examples of this mold coming out. Richardson/Daniels obvious running QBs heavily, etc.

And we get to guys like Lawrence/Wilson/Fields/Lance, obviously not Mac Jones. Flashback to the 2018 class, Allen/Baker/Lamar could and did run a lot in college, Josh Rosen didn't really. It's extremely run heavy in college at the QB position now and sure it was in the past, but the prospects are heavily runners or need that / incorporate that into their game.

You have niche running specialists like Hurts and Lamar who need that value otherwise if they are asked to drop back and pass more/a lot, they turn into pumpkins and throw away games or can't win games predominantly/purely as a passer. So I don't know, what I see is funnel of college prospects who do/need to run, and now if we look at the pure passers it's almost all old guard or clear vets - Stafford, Dak, Goff + Darnold, Lawrence being 5/10 passing yard leaders this season so far. Mahomes/Allen also in there, they are vets at this point too but run quite a bit clearly, part of their game.

I mean god lord we have a 42 year old Aaron Rodgers with a literal broken arm, Tua, Jacoby Brissett, Geno Smith, Baker, Daniel Jones minus 1.5 games filling out your top 20 in passing yards. The only promising young QBs who can actually throw the ball seem to be: Drake Maye, maybe Caleb Williams, maybe CJ Stroud, and I guess Bo Nix who is runs college style alot and is 24th in air yards on an elite roster OL/defense wise? Maybe I'm missing someone but anyone within 4-5 years of entering the league any good at actually passing as a QB?

[Tea10]

^sorry I guess Jordan Love deserves to be named there for young QBs with competent passing ability.

But I would love to see this stat: Total rushing yards by all combined QBs in the NFL per season. . And obviously in the 40s-50s dirt bowl era QBs were basically RBs so let's say from 1980-2025. If anyone can somehow get that, I'd love to see it. I'll try an LLM to see if they can calculate it. Edit: Yup, ChatGPT did it and just as I thought, it clearly has increased in recent years/era. That is despite the fact these are the easiest/most favorable passing rules in NFL history, same ones or more pro-passing/offense than 2008-2020. The average rushing yards has almost doubled or doubled for QB specific totals in the past 10 years. The total QB rushing yardage this season through 14 games is more than every single season from 1980 to 2017, you have to get up to the 2018 season to not have the record broken in 14 games.

Season Total QB Rushing Yards (Regular Season)
1980 4,263
1981 3,676
1982 2,001
1983 4,159
1984 4,124
1985 3,915
1986 4,306
1987 5,092
1988 4,894
1989 5,362
---
1990 5,912
1991 3,864
1992 4,877
1993 4,273
1994 3,685
1995 3,970
1996 4,220
1997 5,177
1998 5,465
1999 5,943
---
2000 7,616
2001 6,569
2002 6,713
2003 4,899
2004 4,957
2005 4,560
2006 5,214
2007 3,997
2008 4,441
2009 4,292
---
2010 5,659
2011 6,071
2012 ~6,576
2013 ~7,373
2014 ~6,646
2015 ~6,562
2016 ~6,003
2017 ~7,126
2018 8,137
2019 7,744
---
2020 9,489
2021 9,469
2022 10,254
2023 9,888
2024 11,035
2025 (through available league data) ~8,119

[BostonNut]

Originally Posted by 49erRCCollector

Josh Allen is not winning more than Brady on those Pats teams. That's ludicrous.

Mahomes could have won 18.

[f2tornado]

Interesting disco in this thread. What's the worst case? He ends up as an NFL version of Mike Trout which gives you some idea of a floor (that's been years in the making). Best case, he comes back like Brady did and wins a couple more. I'd venture it's somewhere between those extremes.

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by Tea10

The Bucs were 7-9 the year prior and missed the playoffs entirely. Jameis wasn't a bottom 5-10 QB arguably. Brady joined, basically ran the offense for them and they won a SB immediately. They went 11-5. Then they went 13-4 the next year with Brady and I recall them barely losing to the Rams, otherwise they might get there again I was thinking in real time.

I'm not sure what your point is. So you think a 40 year old free agent QB should go to the worst team possible? Maybe the Browns or Raiders instead? That would be brain dead. Of course he's going to go to a good roster and a team that has a chance to win a SB. And how many QBs have won rings (actually starting) with two different teams? It's not "easy" to do regardless.

Wait so that was the same 2019 roster as it was in 2020? Mind to point to the additions on that team in 2019 going into 2020? Hint, Tommy wasn’t the only newcomer.

Seoarately, additionally going against your point, Jameis plays a lot of really fun football. It’s great for television. By no means has it ever been winning. Getting a Jameis team to win 7 games is kind of a miracle.

[JohnnyHatesJazz]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

Wait so that was the same 2019 roster as it was in 2020? Mind to point to the additions on that team in 2019 going into 2020? Hint, Tommy wasn’t the only newcomer.

Seoarately, additionally going against your point, Jameis plays a lot of really fun football. It’s great for television. By no means has it ever been winning. Getting a Jameis team to win 7 games is kind of a miracle.

Let me guess, you were one of those guys not buying Brady because you thought he was a system quarterback?

Hahahaha

[daveyc1]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

It also should be stated.

Tom Brady wasn't stupid when he "picked" his next team.
Bucs:
-Weak division, although they won as a WC
-HOFer Mike Evans was in his prime
-Chris Godwin was a solid 1B
-Gronk as a TE
-half the season with a nutcase, but very talented Antonio Brown

You can have a TTT approaching 2 when you have the sheer amount of weapons they had.

Their defense was also a top 6 scoring defense and a top 8 yards allowed defense.

That roster was not simply just Tom Brady. Tom was just cast off New England in 2019

Funny, Mike Evans numbers dropped from 2019 to 2020, then went up after Tom left and Baker arrived.

Chris Godwin had a career year in 2019 with Jameis Winston, then had arguably his worst year in a 5 year stretch in 2020 with Brady (granted, 2 less games than previous year)

But yes, according to those bunkered in igloos in NE, Tom did it all.

wait, you mean the Bucs team that had a losing record, missed the playoffs and had a starting qb with 30 interceptions??????

that stacked Bucs team?

you mean during a season with no OTAs and no preseason? a 42 year old QB joining a completely new team with an entirely new offensive scheme and unable to practice with new teammates?

that Bucs team??? That season???

[daveyc1]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

Wait so that was the same 2019 roster as it was in 2020? Mind to point to the additions on that team in 2019 going into 2020? Hint, Tommy wasn’t the only newcomer.

Seoarately, additionally going against your point, Jameis plays a lot of really fun football. It’s great for television. By no means has it ever been winning. Getting a Jameis team to win 7 games is kind of a miracle.

what huge additions are you talking about?

a washed antonio brown? retired gronk who needed 6 games to get into shape and caught 45 balls? Leonard Fournette halfway through the season and accounted for 367 yards in 2020?

nothing new on defense.

the important addition was at the QB position.

[JohnnyHatesJazz]

Originally Posted by daveyc1

what huge additions are you talking about?

a washed antonio brown? retired gronk who needed 6 games to get into shape and caught 45 balls? Leonard Fournette halfway through the season and accounted for 367 yards in 2020?

nothing new on defense.

the important addition was at the QB position.

Put Brady on the lions, browns, broncos, Vikings, Seahawks, Texans, colts, jags and eagles and he’s winning super bowls with them.

Put Brady on this chiefs team and they are making the playoffs this year. Deep down inside, mahomies know this including our friend bluey.

[KardsC1]

Brady never missed a pass
Brady walks on water

But yet he had to call Gronk to come to Tampa

And yes, football is more than just the Qb…team sport fellas

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by daveyc1

wait, you mean the Bucs team that had a losing record, missed the playoffs and had a starting qb with 30 interceptions??????

that stacked Bucs team?

you mean during a season with no OTAs and no preseason? a 42 year old QB joining a completely new team with an entirely new offensive scheme and unable to practice with new teammates?

that Bucs team??? That season???

So you are going to COMPLETELY dismiss winning 7 games with a QB that throws 30, yes, 30, interceptions. That’s two picks a game, and the team still won 7 games, one win away from .500.

Yes, I’d say the team was an average QB away from competing for a WC and a competent top 5 QB away from competing for their conference. Thank you for reinforcing my point sir. Tip of the cap.

[daveyc1]

Originally Posted by KardsC1

Brady never missed a pass

Brady walks on water



But yet he had to call Gronk to come to Tampa



And yes, football is more than just the Qb…team sport fellas

I dont think anyone said he never missed a pass or walked on water. Just you


He did go to a new team with a new coach and a new offense in a year with no preseason or otas as a 42 year old.

There is that...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[KardsC1]

And also Brady reads minds too

[JohnnyHatesJazz]

Originally Posted by KardsC1

Brady never missed a pass
Brady walks on water

But yet he had to call Gronk to come to Tampa

And yes, football is more than just the Qb…team sport fellas

QB is supposed to be the field general. They are the CEO of the football team. NFL quarterbacks have got away from that but Brady is the ultimate Field General and CEO. The Ravens are super bowl champs if Brady was quarterbacking their team the last few years.

[daveyc1]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

So you are going to COMPLETELY dismiss winning 7 games with a QB that throws 30, yes, 30, interceptions. That’s two picks a game, and the team still won 7 games, one win away from .500.



Yes, I’d say the team was an average QB away from competing for a WC and a competent top 5 QB away from competing for their conference. Thank you for reinforcing my point sir. Tip of the cap.

You insinuated there was a roster turnover from 2019. There wasnt. Other than Brady, a diminished Gronk was by far the biggest addition.

The QB addition was the catalyst.

Obviously

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[49erRCCollector]

Originally Posted by KardsC1

Brady never missed a pass
Brady walks on water

I mean, kind of.

Mahomes is HOFer today, no doubt. He's amazing. Just maybe not TB.

[KardsC1]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHatesJazz

QB is supposed to be the field general. They are the CEO of the football team. NFL quarterbacks have got away from that but Brady is the ultimate Field General and CEO. The Ravens are super bowl champs if Brady was quarterbacking their team the last few years.

Doesn’t change the fact that QBs are no where to be found during defense …and there’s a saying out there “Defense Wins Championships”…so either I’m wrong or I must be blind …have ya seen any QBs play defense?

[JohnnyHatesJazz]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

So you are going to COMPLETELY dismiss winning 7 games with a QB that throws 30, yes, 30, interceptions. That’s two picks a game, and the team still won 7 games, one win away from .500.

Yes, I’d say the team was an average QB away from competing for a WC and a competent top 5 QB away from competing for their conference. Thank you for reinforcing my point sir. Tip of the cap.

Do you think Patty can do the same thing at 42? Go to stacked team, new system, new coach and win a sb?