What will it take for Joker to be in top 10 conversation?

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by Nomad

Good news. Jokic made it into the top 10 conversation. Bad news. Barely.

Good news: your Nesmith thread will be ready in 15 years when people want to discuss his top 10 potential.

Bad news: they won’t.

[Nomad]

You're probably right. But I never put Nesmith in the GOAT conversation. I just wrote about who I collected.

[oldgoldy97]

Start collecting Joker.

[Nomad]

Was actually just thinking about starting a Holiday collection. He's gotta be underpriced. But honestly it's more fun to pick a player when all their new rookie issues are coming out, fresh from the hands of disappointed breakers.

I would have maybe collected Joker if followed Denver and it was three years ago. Now, I can only assume his garlands are included in the price.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by daeve

I don't think it's any worse now than it was in the mid-late 90s. Recall what Pippen had to do to break down those rules and how it infuriated Jerry Sloan. There's at least a couple good youtube breakdowns on this.

Also as far as Jokic is concerned, I've again not seen an offensive player have to go up against a 4x DPOY, multiple All-Star/All-NBA guy, and 6th Man all in their prime in one opponent. You can even knock down Gobert's DPOY multiplier and KAT's multiple AS/All-NBA nods and it still hadn't happened before. With the cherry on top being a GM who designed Jokic' team then crafting the team to beat him. Hasn't happened before in the history of the league.

^It took all of that to beat a guy with zero other all-star teammates.

And if we're going across eras to compare, there has never been this much size+athleticism to go up against. Think about the giants in eras past who would be relegated to the bench in today's league due to not being able to guard anything on switches with quick ballhandlers. Boban is a good example of this.

Guys like Wilt or Russell used to stick out as anomalies. Now you have Gobert, AD, JJJ, Wemby, Giannis just off the top of my head. Bigs who are nimble, athletic, and quick enough to dominate in the 'offensive-geared' game of today.

edit - found one of the 98 Finals Pippen breakdowns I was thinking of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUiOvcDFD7c

It's a fact that the game is officiated differently today. You cannot argue this.

Offensive efficiency is setting a new record every season and it's not 100% because of the players being more talented or better scorers

[jcardstore]

You could make an argument that it was significantly harder to score before illegal defense

If we’re talking about boosting legacies based on how hard it was to win a title, Hakeem should benefit because teams could just pack the paint and stand there forever

[daeve]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

It's a fact that the game is officiated differently today. You cannot argue this.

Offensive efficiency is setting a new record every season and it's not 100% because of the players being more talented or better scorers

It's moreso due to analytics and preparation. Curry blew the doors off the league and expanded the game outwards from the hoop. Every year now there is better shooting from further away, because it's being practiced.

[yiguiri2002]

I think a better question is: How much of the new offensive records are happening because of the explosion in 3 point shooting and how much is it about the defense?

I'll say something like 70-30 defense/offense. Even with better defense we'll be having great offensive numbers.

[GOATcards]

supposedly Jamal Murray is Jokic's all-star-level or all-nba-level support come playoff time. Murray missed something like 1/4 of this season to injuries. That would have cost them something like 2 expected wins, denying them the #1 seed where they'd have faced a no-Zion Pels in the 1st round etc. etc.

so there's that

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

If we’re talking about boosting legacies based on how hard it was to win a title, Hakeem should benefit because teams could just pack the paint and stand there forever

If this is how you argue things, and you do so without any shame, then perhaps no one should waste their time with you

Running together competition levels with rules differences 🤡

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

If this is how you argue things, and you do so without any shame, then perhaps no one should waste their time with you

Running together competition levels with rules differences ��

Everybody is participating in productive back and forth except you

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by daeve

It's moreso due to analytics and preparation. Curry blew the doors off the league and expanded the game outwards from the hoop. Every year now there is better shooting from further away, because it's being practiced.

Curry definitely changed the game.

The analytics angle is probably true as well, certainly the D'Antoni rockets played a big role in that.

The illegal defense changed things as well because it opened up the floor like crazy

It's almost a chicken or the egg type thing. Was it that illegal defense allowed the analytics & 3pt shooting to take over? Or was it the analytics independent of the changes.

[Nomad]

Playing on-ball defense these days, as Nesmith pioneered, requires a combination of track running and keeping your hands up and visible at all times. Can be done, but you've seen all the hamstring injuries lately. And you may be mistaken for Bambi skating on a frozen pond.

[daeve]

In that longer post I made last page I forgot to include that Finch was the offensive-minded assistant who drafted the development of the Joker-led offense too.

So we have :

Finch - former Nuggs assistant and credited with the Joker-led offense, now Minny HC

Connelly - president of basketball operations who built the Denver core, and now did the same in Minny

Gobert - 4x DPOY and best defensive center in the league

KAT - multi all-star and all-nba, still in his 20s and was once not known for his defense but has embraced his role with Rudy, and clearly improved since they had the #1 defense in the league

Naz Reid - 6th man and not just like the ones of yesteryear where it was a Jamal Crawford or Lou Williams no-defense type of player.

Jaden McDaniels - probably should've been 1st team all-defense over Herb Jones but eh, 2nd team nod for this year. Guarded Jamal Murray and is literally what you would build in a lab to guard Murray if you could do so. 5 inches taller, way lengthier, quick and tenacious

It took all this to beat Joker.


I think they win the championship - barring injury of course. Ant and Conley also crucial to the team. The difference with having Conley miss a game is really what made it seem like Denver had the upper hand in winning 3 in a row. But don't forget he's also a former all-star and all-def player, just hadn't mentioned him yet because yeah he's past his prime years.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

Curry definitely changed the game.

The analytics angle is probably true as well, certainly the D'Antoni rockets played a big role in that.

The illegal defense changed things as well because it opened up the floor like crazy

It's almost a chicken or the egg type thing. Was it that illegal defense allowed the analytics & 3pt shooting to take over? Or was it the analytics independent of the changes.

As with everything, probably a bit of both. But you had years of some weird ball being played as teams adjusted. San Antonio did this the best and is evidenced by their dynasty. Shaq was still Shaq and that's why he won a few in this awkward transition phase. Lebron had to expand his game out to become a better outside shooter, same with Kawhi. Giannis hasn't done it [yet?]. Curry and the prime Warriors showed the world what it looked like if you did it perfectly.

If you watched the TB clip I posted, Stockton was absolutely rattled out of his game due to Pippen. It does make it seem like he was just really good at exploiting the illegal defense rules. Doesn't mean I think he wouldn't be an all-star otherwise, but his assist numbers which prop up his ringless all-time status probably take a massive hit if the rules had changed earlier. That or Pippen is maybe closer to top 3 all-time defender than merely top 10.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by daeve

In that longer post I made last page I forgot to include that Finch was the offensive-minded assistant who drafted the development of the Joker-led offense too.

So we have :

Finch - former Nuggs assistant and credited with the Joker-led offense, now Minny HC

Connelly - president of basketball operations who built the Denver core, and now did the same in Minny

Gobert - 4x DPOY and best defensive center in the league

KAT - multi all-star and all-nba, still in his 20s and was once not known for his defense but has embraced his role with Rudy, and clearly improved since they had the #1 defense in the league

Naz Reid - 6th man and not just like the ones of yesteryear where it was a Jamal Crawford or Lou Williams no-defense type of player.

Jaden McDaniels - probably should've been 1st team all-defense over Herb Jones but eh, 2nd team nod for this year. Guarded Jamal Murray and is literally what you would build in a lab to guard Murray if you could do so. 5 inches taller, way lengthier, quick and tenacious

It took all this to beat Joker.


I think they win the championship - barring injury of course. Ant and Conley also crucial to the team. The difference with having Conley miss a game is really what made it seem like Denver had the upper hand in winning 3 in a row. But don't forget he's also a former all-star and all-def player, just hadn't mentioned him yet because yeah he's past his prime years.

So wait, Ant is not just doing this all on his own and willing team to victory?

[jcardstore]

Minnesota is an awesome team, Ant is clearly the leader but they have a ton of talent.

There's no shame in Jokic losing. I think we all agree that Jokic needs more help. Either that's him going somewhere or Denver making some significant changes.

[daeve]

Right, Ant is a tremendous leader for his age. He's the swagger-bringer and the engine of the offense. Right now Conley is the key to make the offense work efficiently though, which is why his health is very important in a playoff series.

[Nomad]

Interesting when you think about it, every team needs an iconic swagger leader. Haliburton has had that role placed on him but he consistently coughs the ball up and fails at defense at critical times. So the Pacers are maybe more bland in the eyes of some.

Conley yes, but he is invisible isn't he.

[calmar]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Yes Jordan didn’t win his first 3 years in the league. He was the centerpiece of a team being built. They added pieces. Yes he won with Pippen. The best 16-6-5 defensive player with migraines god ever put on earth.

I know it's necessary for Jordan hagiographers to demean Pippen as "the best 16-6-5 player with migraines god put on earth," but the intellectual dishonesty is pretty ridiculous. The fact that Pippen got migraines in that one game and pouted and quit in that other game and has said and done embarrassing things in recent years has zero relevance when it comes to the facts: He was an incredible player who complemented Jordan perfectly. Off the top of my head, these are the all-timers who won championships since 1980 with a #2 not as good that year (according to PER) as Pippen was in the Bulls' title years:
1981: Bird
1988: Magic
1989: Thomas
1990: Thomas
1994: Hakeem
1995: Hakeem
2003: Duncan
2005: Duncan
2007: Duncan
2015: Curry
2016: LeBron
2019: Kawhi
2021: Giannis
2022: Curry
2023: Jokic

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by calmar

I know it's necessary for Jordan hagiographers to demean Pippen as "the best 16-6-5 player with migraines god put on earth," but the intellectual dishonesty is pretty ridiculous. The fact that Pippen got migraines in that one game and pouted and quit in that other game and has said and done embarrassing things in recent years has zero relevance when it comes to the facts: He was an incredible player who complemented Jordan perfectly. Off the top of my head, these are the all-timers who won championships since 1980 with a #2 not as good that year (according to PER) as Pippen was in the Bulls' title years:
1981: Bird
1988: Magic
1989: Thomas
1990: Thomas
1994: Hakeem
1995: Hakeem
2003: Duncan
2005: Duncan
2007: Duncan
2015: Curry
2016: LeBron
2019: Kawhi
2021: Giannis
2022: Curry
2023: Jokic

Everyone knows how good Pippen was.

But the fact remains that in the biggest games, he just wasn't there.

Those teams were all legit championship contending teams.

That is seriously one of the dumbest posts we've ever seen. Just wow
Even in Jordans final game with the Bulls Pippen was just a warm body with his back.

And if you're actually using PER only as a measuring stick, than you're an idiot.

Those players you mentioned all had championship level players around them.

IT had Dumars who won a Finals MVP.
Akeem had Drexler who lead a team to the Finals
The 2003 Spurs team was probably the best Spurs team of all time.
LeBron had a guy called Kyrie who had a 40 piece in one game and hit the series winner.

[robert0629]

Originally Posted by calmar

I know it's necessary for Jordan hagiographers to demean Pippen as "the best 16-6-5 player with migraines god put on earth," but the intellectual dishonesty is pretty ridiculous. The fact that Pippen got migraines in that one game and pouted and quit in that other game and has said and done embarrassing things in recent years has zero relevance when it comes to the facts: He was an incredible player who complemented Jordan perfectly. Off the top of my head, these are the all-timers who won championships since 1980 with a #2 not as good that year (according to PER) as Pippen was in the Bulls' title years:
1981: Bird
1988: Magic
1989: Thomas
1990: Thomas
1994: Hakeem
1995: Hakeem
2003: Duncan
2005: Duncan
2007: Duncan
2015: Curry
2016: LeBron
2019: Kawhi
2021: Giannis
2022: Curry
2023: Jokic

I will agree that Pippen complimented Jordan very well, and that is one of the reasons the Bulls had so much success. However, using PER for the season in my opinion is not the best way to determine how much help the best players had in winning their championships. You should look at how they perform in each playoff series. Just because a player had a high PER during the season doesn’t mean they played well when it mattered most. Game Score is closely related to PER, but used for a single game to determine a players’ contribution. I don’t have time to look at all the playoff series, but just looking at the six Finals’ series - Pippen had average Game Scores of 17.5, 18.1, 15.6, 13.4, 15.1, and 13.0.

Going through your list and looking at average Game Score for a Finals’ series:

1981: Bird - They don’t have Game Score on Basketball Reference for this year. But it’s kind of irrelevant in this case since Bird didn’t even win Finals MVP, Cedric Maxwell did. Bird was still the best player in that series, but Maxwell did outscore him and I would say Maxwell’s contribution is equal to anything Pippen ever did in a Finals’ series. Also, the Rockets were a below .500 team, so they weren’t the best Finals opponent that most teams will face.

1988: Magic - The second best Laker GS was Worthy at 16.6, better than four of Pippens.

1989: Thomas - Thomas didn’t even lead his own team in GS. He had a 16.2. Dumars led with 22.4 and was the series MVP.

1990: Thomas - The second best Piston GS was Laimbeer at 13.8, better than two of Pippens.

1994: Hakeem - The second best Rocket GS was Thorpe at 10.4, Hakeem was the man in this series.

1995: Hakeem - Both Drexler (20.1) and Horry (19.0) had higher GS than Pippen ever had in any Finals’ series.

2003: Duncan - The second best Spur GS was the Admiral at 11.9. Once again another player who dominated with little help from his teammates.

2005: Duncan - The second best Spur GS was Ginobili at 14.1, better than two of Pippens.

2007: Duncan - The best Spur GS was actually Parker at 16.2, he also won the MVP.

2015: Curry - The second Warrior GS was Iguodala at 13.6, better than two of Pippens. Iggy also won MVP, although Curry probably should have.

2016: LeBron - The second highest Cav GS was Kyrie at 19.1, higher than Pippens’ best.

2019: Kawhi - The second highest Raptor GS was Siakam at 15.8, better than four of Pippens.

2021: Giannis - The second highest Buck GS was Middleton at 16.2, better than four of Pippens.

2022: Curry - The second highest Warrior GS was Wiggins at 14.1, better than two of Pippens.

2023: Jokic - The second highest Nugget GS was Murray at 18.0, which is basically tied with Pippens’ best.

With the a few exceptions, most of the players on your list got contributions from their number twos that were very close to what Pippin gave Jordan, according to this metric anyway.

[calmar]

"Everyone knows how good Pippen was.

But the fact remains that in the biggest games, he just wasn't there."

You're right, he just wasn't there. Because you've reviewed the facts carefully, rather than letting spotty memories and "The Last Dance" define a career.

Here are 10 examples we can point to below, just from the 1991-1993 title runs, none of which "The Last Dance" says anything about. It does, however, spend a lot of time on the migraine game in 1990, and on the Kukoc game-winner game in 1994, etc. So, relatively much more time spent documenting Pippen's lowest moments, and very few flowers for being a top-10 player in the NBA over that period and regularly having strong games in the biggest playoff moments.

In a documentary series that Pippen had no control over, and Jordan did, I wonder why that is? I wonder what that does to our collective memory?

1991: Series-winning Game 5 vs. the 76ers (23.6 GameScore)

1991: Series-winning Game 4 vs. the Pistons (21.8 GameScore)

1991: NBA Title-winning Game 5 vs. the Lakers (28.1 GameScore, better than Jordan's)

1992: Series-winning Game 7 vs. the Knicks (21.1 GameScore and a triple-double)

1992: Series-winning Game 6 vs. the Cavs (25.0 GameScore, better than Jordan's)

1992: Game 5 of the NBA Finals, tied 2-2 vs. Portland (24.5 GameScore and one assist away from triple-double)

1992: NBA Title-winning Game 6 vs. Portland (18.1 GameScore and 26pts)

1993: Game 3 of Eastern Conference Championship, down 0-2 vs. the Knicks, the game after Jordan's Atlantic City firestorm (24.3 GameScore and 29pts on 10-12 shooting, Jordan shot 3-18, "The Last Dance" completely misrepresents MJ's performance in the game)

1993: Series-winning Game 6 of Eastern Conference Championship vs. the Knicks (18.4 GameScore and 24pts)

1993: NBA Title-winning Game 6 vs. Phoenix (18.5 GameScore and 23pts)

Jordan is the G.O.A.T., or very nearly so. We all know that. But when it comes to Pippen and his contributions, anyone who thinks his role with the Bulls hasn't been undermined and misrepresented to a crazy extent is simply not engaging with the facts.

[6celtics33]

I know pippen was a fine player. When I denigrate him it’s usually to balance out Lebron fans sayjng Jordan didn’t win until pippen got there as though that’s the reason. Jordan only played 11 full seasons with the bulls. Pippen was a piece they added. If he didn’t come there likely would’ve been other pieces instead that Jordan would’ve won with. I think Jordan was obsessed with winning and would’ve got there eventually.

I can’t prove that. It’s what I think. I think Jordan wasn’t beating the 86 Celtics or early to mid 80s bucks whether Pippen was there or not given he was young and on a coaching carousel and those teams were better. He had to take his lumps, improve, and climb the mountain.

He didn’t get to sign elsewhere. Back then it was climb the mountain or don’t win.

That narrative of he’s 1-9 without Pippen really can be summed up as he’s 1-9 on crappy teams. He played the rest of his career with Pippen on the bulls. So their success is tied together. Pippen was on much better teams in Portland and Houston after Jordan than Jordan was on before Pippen and those teams didn’t accomplish anything. So Pippen isn’t this magic stick for basketball teams.

That’s a fact.

Also a fact, Lebron has had 3 Pippen level contributors in Wade, Ad, and Kyrie. I don’t think all time Kyrie is as good a player as Pippen but he still was scoring 40 in the playoffs and hitting game winners. Something Pippen never did.

So take your holier than thou bs somewhere else. We don’t know each other and that’s as much time as I’m gonna spend engaging with you. Thanks

[hermanotarjeta]

It’s obvious Jordan molded Pippen into the player he needed him to be in order to win a championship.

The greatest ones have that effect on their teammates.