A Very Important Paypal Dispute Learning Experience

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by KidKards101

Anyways so what is everyone's opinion on the card I got back. I posted large pictures of both front and back as well as the label. Is the card and/or label authentic or fake?

I believe both are fake. And I do not believe what you were sent back is what was sold in those two auctions.

[theleica]

Originally Posted by Wiseysez

From reading the thread though it doesn’t sound like PayPal did any type of investigation. Just sided with the buyer. Thus they have set a very scary precedent. Thank goodness I’m a low roller.

Again I ask what investigation can Paypal do? There is just a transaction. There is a crappy low res picture by the OP and nothing else.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by theleica

As far as I can tell there are only the following:

1) a low resolution crappy picture posted by the OP yesterday

2) a picture of the card the OP received back (This may not be the same card the OP sent to buyer because OPs picture was so low resolution.)

3) a picture of the PSA label the OP received back

4) (2) pictures of a different MJ Fleer RC with the same PSA # from the PSA website

It is tough to say if the buyer is a scammer because there are no images to back up the story.

And it is tough to say whether or not the card that the OP sent was real or fake because again there are no images to back up the story.

I disagree. We have the label, we have pictures from ebay that match the card sent back from the buyer both front and back. It's pretty obvious what happened in this case. I'm sure people will keep coming up with conspiracies, but it seems really obvious what happened.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by KidKards101

Anyways so what is everyone's opinion on the card I got back. I posted large pictures of both front and back as well as the label. Is the card and/or label authentic or fake?

I believe this is what you sent him and he sent back the card in the case and the label. And I believe based on what other people have said in this thread that the MJ is fake in the case and out of the case and most likely the entire slab is fake.

[theleica]

Originally Posted by pgisback

I disagree. We have the label, we have pictures from ebay that match the card sent back from the buyer both front and back. It's pretty obvious what happened in this case. I'm sure people will keep coming up with conspiracies, but it seems really obvious what happened.

What pictures from eBay? The 2 times the card sold in 2017? The OP stated he bought the card in August 2016 and didn't sell until December 2018. How is that possible?

EDIT: The picture from above is from 1 of the 2 times the card was sold in 2017, correct? Again how is that possible?

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by theleica

What pictures from eBay? The 2 times the card sold in 2017? The OP stated he bought the card in August 2016 and didn't sell until December 2018. How is that possible?

I'm not going to get in to that. All I know is the card the buyer sent back looks identical to the card in the case with the matching serial number. If the seller has information to disprove this, that would change things, but as of now it seems pretty obvious to me those two are the same.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by theleica

What pictures from eBay? The 2 times the card sold in 2017? The OP stated he bought the card in August 2016 and didn't sell until December 2018. How is that possible?

EDIT: The picture from above is from 1 of the 2 times the card was sold in 2017, correct? Again how is that possible?

Here is the post where I provided images of the PSA serial number at question twice in the span of about a week in July 2017.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=268

[RogerGodahell]

I have a question for the OP. Can you post a picture of the back of the fake that he sent back to you please?

[Wiseysez]

Originally Posted by theleica

Again I ask what investigation can Paypal do? There is just a transaction. There is a crappy low res picture by the OP and nothing else.

Well that’s part of the problem. Doesn’t sound like they really tried to do anything. And I really don’t know what they could’ve done as far as an investigation. But if you can just alter anything and get your money back using INAD, well then the door is wide open. Sucks that the way this one played out someone was getting screwed even if both sides are 100% honest.

[KhalDrogo]

And I’ll make this very clear.

I am not defending the OP. The whole situation is very weird, including the confusion about when the item was purchased.

What I am defending is a seller’s protection against buyers returning graded items after cracking them out of their slab. Once cracked, it should not be eligible for a return.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

I have a question for the OP. Can you post a picture of the back of the fake that he sent back to you please?

He posted it yesterday I think. Here's the one in the PSA holder on the left and the scan he posted on the right. Keep in mind they weren't the same size, so the one on the right was cropped and stretched.

[theleica]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Here is the post where I provided images of the PSA serial number at question twice in the span of about a week in July 2017.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=268

Yes thank you for posting. The OPs timeline of events makes zero sense.

August 2016 - OP buys card

July 2017 - Card sells twice in the span of a week by 2 sellers that are not the OP.

December 2018 - OP sells card

If we are believing the OP, how can it be the same card?

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by pgisback

I believe this is what you sent him and he sent back the card in the case and the label. And I believe based on what other people have said in this thread that the MJ is fake in the case and out of the case and most likely the entire slab is fake.

i do have a serious question for you regarding this

as a seller can we not have the assumption that a professionally graded card is at least authentic (i know, i know... in some rare instances items pass by)

but to sell a psa graded key rc..... then have the card returned back out of the case? i know some people are really smart and know cards.... but at some point we have to take the fact that it was indeed graded into account...... to get a return where the card was cracked, and possibly may not even be the same........ it's just not in the spirit of a decent thing to do... someone knowledgeable enough to know it's a fake would almost 100 percent know that with the card in holder... the extra 1/4 closer you can get just doesn't seem to matter in this case

i agree with you that if something is fake you should be able to send it back... but this is definitely a gray area and a very bizarre circumstance

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by theleica

Yes thank you for posting. The OPs timeline of events makes zero sense.

August 2016 - OP buys card

July 2017 - Card sells twice in the span of a week by 2 sellers that are not the OP.

December 2018 - OP sells card

If we are believing the OP, how can it be the same card?

That's the thing. The OP posted that ebay photo with the matching serial number. So if we want to get in to crazy conspiracies, the buyer bought the serial number PSA 8 in 2017. Then bought the same serial number in 2018. Sent back the 2017 card and label and kept the 2018 one which we have no record of, lol.

[KidKards101]

^ that's what I don't get either.. Did PSA mess up in their serial number? Is one the real one and the other one or two a fake?

[theleica]

Originally Posted by pgisback

He posted it yesterday I think. Here's the one in the PSA holder on the left and the scan he posted on the right. Keep in mind they weren't the same size, so the one on the right was cropped and stretched.

That's not the same card. I brought it into Photoshop, copied and pasted one on top of the other, lined them up, used a free transformation on them, changed the opacity.

The top is bigger on one and the right side is slightly larger.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

i do have a serious question for you regarding this

as a seller can we not have the assumption that a professionally graded card is at least authentic (i know, i know... in some rare instances items pass by)

but to sell a psa graded key rc..... then have the card returned back out of the case? i know some people are really smart and know cards.... but at some point we have to take the fact that it was indeed graded into account...... to get a return where the card was cracked, and possibly may not even be the same........ it's just not in the spirit of a decent thing to do... someone knowledgeable enough to know it's a fake would almost 100 percent know that with the card in holder... the extra 1/4 closer you can get just doesn't seem to matter in this case

i agree with you that if something is fake you should be able to send it back... but this is definitely a gray area and a very bizarre circumstance

No, I completely take PSA graded cards for granted and always assume they are legit. All I'm saying is someone is going to get screwed in this situation, and it's always going to be the seller. Even if you don't know when you sell it, you are always responsible for what you sell even if you have a PSA slab. In the case, out of the case, the buyer did not buy a counterfeit MJ and Ebay/Paypal does not care about what PSA says. If you receive something that you did not buy, you will get a refund. As a seller, it would suck, but there's nothing you can do about it. And the buyer is definitely not responsible for you selling him a counterfeit and finding out after taking it out of the case. He's allowed to do that.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by theleica

That's not the same card. I brought it into Photoshop, copied and pasted one on top of the other, lined them up, used a free transformation on them, changed the opacity.

The top is bigger on one and the right side is slightly larger.

Like I said, the right card is from his low res scan and is stretched out. It might not be entirely proportional to it's actual dimensions.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by pgisback View Post
I believe this is what you sent him and he sent back the card in the case and the label. And I believe based on what other people have said in this thread that the MJ is fake in the case and out of the case and most likely the entire slab is fake.

The card on the left is an image from an auction that sold in 2017. It is not the slab the OP owned unless the OP is lying about when he purchased it. That card’s barcode also scans in the PSA app.

[KidKards101]

I'm also confused by my buyer as well. Why then would he even offer a partial refund if he says he knows the card is a fake. If I knew something was fake i would not offer any partial refund at all. This as well as cracking the case out has what led me to the conclusion that he may have switched the card.

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by pgisback

He posted it yesterday I think. Here's the one in the PSA holder on the left and the scan he posted on the right. Keep in mind they weren't the same size, so the one on the right was cropped and stretched.

That looks like the same card to me.

Now look at the back of this one i screenshot from worthpoint. It's the same serial number.



Centering looks a lot different to me.

Here's the link. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...rc-psa-8-great

[theleica]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Like I said, the right card is from his low res scan and is stretched out. It might not be entirely proportional to it's actual dimensions.

I made it proportional using a free transformation as in all the words on the back of the card are the same exact size on both. You change the opacity back and forth so each card is showing 50% one on top of the other and you tweak until perfect.

I did this in the BNC thread to show trimmed cards. I'm telling you it isn't the same card.

EDIT: I'll throw up a video in a few minutes on Youtube and post a link to show you.

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by pgisback

No, I completely take PSA graded cards for granted and always assume they are legit. All I'm saying is someone is going to get screwed in this situation, and it's always going to be the seller. Even if you don't know when you sell it, you are always responsible for what you sell even if you have a PSA slab. In the case, out of the case, the buyer did not buy a counterfeit MJ and Ebay/Paypal does not care about what PSA says. If you receive something that you did not buy, you will get a refund. As a seller, it would suck, but there's nothing you can do about it. And the buyer is definitely not responsible for you selling him a counterfeit and finding out after taking it out of the case. He's allowed to do that.

yea... i get your point, it makes sense

but why is the buyer allowed to take the card out of the case? that's my issue.... the hammer price on graded cards is heavily influenced by the grade... and could be 10x a raw..... the buyer shouldn't have the right to devalue the item and then return it

but you are right... someone surely will be screwed in this instance, no way around that

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

That looks like the same card to me.

Now look at the back of this one i screenshot from worthpoint. It's the same serial number.



Centering looks a lot different to me.

Here's the link. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...rc-psa-8-great

Wow. When did this one sell? Because this is the real 04136807.

Here are the other two sales, which are clearly different.

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Here is one that sold July 10, 2017 for $1665. Interestingly, PWCC has the auction title of this card selling three times in one week, on July 10, 15, and 18. This is the second PSA link. This seller is a BO member (adotgill21). This card's barcode scans in the PSA app.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...dan-1876589970





And here it is again on July 20, 2017 for $1759.99. This is the first PSA link. This card also scans in the PSA app.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...-57-1877932873

[KidKards101]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Like I said, the right card is from his low res scan and is stretched out. It might not be entirely proportional to it's actual dimensions.

When I scanned the card, i did not change anything except crop out most of the entire dark scanner bed because the card would be much smaller in the picture If I didn't do so. I did not alter the dimensions of the card at all. I do have to say that the back part of the card with all the blue lines/printing looks a bit different from when you see it in hand.