PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

It was already destroyed once Moser got his hands on it. Needs to be removed from the market. Don't understand your position whatsoever.

No, they were not "destroyed" by Moser. They were altered by Moser. They're still nice cards regardless. I don't understand your position, either. I'm against destroying history. As much as you may dislike it, the Moser alteration is now part of the card's history. I sure hope "removed from the market" means donating them to a museum and not running them through a shredder.

[3124508 on COMC]

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...71&w=427&h=824
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1090810

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

No, they were not "destroyed" by Moser. They were altered by Moser. They're still nice cards regardless. I don't understand your position, either. I'm against destroying history. As much as you may dislike it, the Moser alteration is now part of the card's history. I sure hope "removed from the market" means donating them to a museum and not running them through a shredder.

Show me where any of these cards is a unique piece of history. As far as I know, none of his cards are the only known copy. In fact, most are relatively common cards.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Show me where any of these cards is a unique piece of history. As far as I know, none of his cards are the only known copy. In fact, most are relatively common cards.

What does unique mean to you? That only one copy exists? Five copies? Clearly these cards have unique markings and characteristics that they've accumulated over the last century. So that makes each card "unique." I'm not sure how your assertion that they're not unique pieces of history supports your position.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

What does unique mean to you? That only one copy exists? Five copies? Clearly these cards have unique markings and characteristics that they've accumulated over the last century. So that makes each card "unique." I'm not sure how your assertion that they're not unique pieces of history supports your position.

unique= "only known copy"

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

unique= "only known copy"

So only cards with one known copy should be preserved? C'mon...

No one knows how future card collectors will view this era in collecting. In 100 years, collectors may not care as much about grades, and may care more about aesthetics.

[corndog]

PSA Cert #42313751

1955 Parkhurst Maple Leaf Gardens #79

Value gain of $120.23

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC as a PSA-5 on September 26, 2018 for $271.00. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1753224
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-5 for $391.23 on March 25, 2019. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1934756

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify trimming of the bottom edge.

[3124508 on COMC]

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...07&w=241&h=520
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/237701



ETA: Gary won this one.

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...25&w=238&h=520

[3124508 on COMC]

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...7&w=990&h=1720
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1177020

[3124508 on COMC]

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...82&w=237&h=520
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/169663

[3124508 on COMC]

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...2&w=930&h=1672
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1816518

[3124508 on COMC]

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...69&w=400&h=368
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/237702

[3124508 on COMC]

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...11&w=742&h=553
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/149258

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

So only cards with one known copy should be preserved? C'mon...

No one knows how future card collectors will view this era in collecting. In 100 years, collectors may not care as much about grades, and may care more about aesthetics.

I say the compromise position between throwing them away and putting them in Authentic holders is an unambiguous, but not obtrusive hole punch, as I've mentioned. To me the high likelihood of collectors being defrauded again with the same Moser cards outweighs any concerns for the cards themselves, especially given the fact that they are now tainted.

I think this point is moot with PSA. I don't believe those cards will ever see the light of day again if they buy them back. They will likely use them for research purposes or destroy them. I fear it is PWCC that might try to recoup some of the money they reimbursed by selling the cards reholdered as Authentic-Altered or even raw. And you know there will be buyers lined up ready to buy anything raw or slabbed authentic if they knew it was from Moser. The smart ones will wait a few years before resubmitting to the TPGs to cash in. And some will succeed.

[3124508 on COMC]

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...74&w=738&h=523
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1131295

[Doublexthebeast]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I say the compromise position between throwing them away and putting them in Authentic holders is an unambiguous, but not obtrusive hole punch, as I've mentioned. To me the high likelihood of collectors being defrauded again with the same Moser cards outweighs any concerns for the cards themselves, especially given the fact that they are now tainted.

I think this point is moot with PSA. I don't believe those cards will ever see the light of day again if they buy them back. They will likely use them for research purposes or destroy them. I fear it is PWCC that might try to recoup some of the money they reimbursed by selling the cards reholdered as Authentic-Altered or even raw. And you know there will be buyers lined up ready to buy anything raw or slabbed authentic if they knew it was from Moser. The smart ones will wait a few years before resubmitting to the TPGs to cash in. And some will succeed.

I agree with you to a certain degree in terms of PSA housing them. The only case where this could be bad is if Collectors Universe went bankrupt, was acquired by another company, or merged with another company. The cards could easily make it back to the public if any of those scenarios ever occurred.

Probably the best thing is to do a hole punch which is almost equally as sad as Moser doctoring them.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

So only cards with one known copy should be preserved? C'mon...



No one knows how future card collectors will view this era in collecting. In 100 years, collectors may not care as much about grades, and may care more about aesthetics.

In 100 years, collectors will want exactly what true collectors today want: to know EXACTLY what they have without any ambiguity whatsoever.

[3124508 on COMC]

Left edge likely trimmed as well.

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...15&w=249&h=520
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1312860

[3124508 on COMC]

Lat one for the night and 50 cards are now complete. I figure I am recovering at most half the 48 Leaf FB cards Moser submitted to PWCC.

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...50&w=236&h=520
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/546426

[SetBuilder]

I find it interesting that Moser/PWCC were so brazen with the whole scheme. It's like they never realized that at some point people were going to look through auction records and connect the dots. Either they had no foresight, or they were comfortable in assuming that collectors are stupid and would never check.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

I find it interesting that Moser/PWCC were so brazen with the whole scheme. It's like they never realized that at some point people were going to look through auction records and connect the dots. Either they had no foresight, or they were comfortable in assuming that collectors are stupid and would never check.

I don't think they counted on the passion or persistence or technical abilities of the guys doing the work.

[superdan49]

SGC Cert #:7430551

1914 Cracker Jack #103 Joe Jackson PSA 2 to SGC 5

Sold on 11/17/2017 as a PSA 2 by Heritage Auctions to an unknown buyer for $22,800.00
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 10/14/2018 as a SGC 5 for $87,877.77
Value gain of $65,077.77!


This card is both the most valuable and the biggest net value gainer uncovered to date. I found it by probing around cards that Brent Huigens's descriptions claimed were graded by SGC when they were "submitted at this year's National Convention as part of a larger grouping of cards which is being auctioned off this year." The 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson SGC 7.5 and the T206 Ty Cobb Green Portrait SGC 4.5, both previously outed as altered, were also claimed to have been submitted for grading at the 2018 NSCC show. The Robinson is confirmed to have been bought on eBay by Gary Moser in its previous incarnation as an SGC 6.5. Prior to its alteration, this Jackson was sold through Heritage Auctions, while the pre-alteration Cobb was sold through REA. Did Moser win both the Heritage and REA auctions? Or were they won by an accomplice of Moser?

Just to be clear, according to the definitions on SGC's website, this card should have been completely rejected with the code B for bleached. SGC defines bleaching as a "generic term for the chemical process of cleaning or removing stains or dirt." The true red color of the 1914 Cracker Jack Joe Jackson has turned a maroonish color after chemical bleaching. Please note that the whitening chemicals used by this card doctor particularly affects red colors, turning them duller and darker.

Furthermore, a crease was either eliminated through pressing or hidden through bleaching, as you can see in the inset image in the first obverse photo comparison. The green circles and rectangles are print fibers and/or print defects that prove the PSA 2 and SGC 5 are one and the same. This is yet another altered card that has received a special PWCC Premium Quality sticker. A thread dedicated to PWCC's 2018 NSCC SGC submissions will be published soon.



PSA 2: https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1.../7200-80320.s?
SGC 5: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1806079

[SetBuilder]

I found this image today and it blew my mind. It's a before and after photo, if you can believe it.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by superdan49

SGC Cert #:7430551

1914 Cracker Jack #103 Joe Jackson PSA 2 to SGC 5

Sold on 11/17/2017 as a PSA 2 by Heritage Auctions to an unknown buyer for $22,800.00
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 10/14/2018 as a SGC 5 for $87,877.77
Value gain of $65,077.77!


This card is both the most valuable and the biggest net value gainer uncovered to date. I found it by probing around cards that Brent Huigens's descriptions claimed were graded by SGC when they were "submitted at this year's National Convention as part of a larger grouping of cards which is being auctioned off this year." The 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson SGC 7.5 and the T206 Ty Cobb Green Portrait SGC 4.5, both previously outed as altered, were also claimed to have been submitted for grading at the 2018 NSCC show. The Robinson is confirmed to have been bought on eBay by Gary Moser in its previous incarnation as an SGC 6.5. Prior to its alteration, this Jackson was sold through Heritage Auctions, while the pre-alteration Cobb was sold through REA. Did Moser win both the Heritage and REA auctions? Or were they won by an accomplice of Moser?

Just to be clear, according to the definitions on SGC's website, this card should have been completely rejected with the code B for bleached. SGC defines bleaching as a "generic term for the chemical process of cleaning or removing stains or dirt." The true red color of the 1914 Cracker Jack Joe Jackson has turned a maroonish color after chemical bleaching. Please note that the whitening chemicals used by this card doctor particularly affects red colors, turning them duller and darker.

Furthermore, a crease was either eliminated through pressing or hidden through bleaching, as you can see in the inset image in the first obverse photo comparison. The green circles and rectangles are print fibers and/or print defects that prove the PSA 2 and SGC 5 are one and the same. This is yet another altered card that has received a special PWCC Premium Quality sticker. A thread dedicated to PWCC's 2018 NSCC SGC submissions will be published soon.



PSA 2: https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1.../7200-80320.s?
SGC 5: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1806079

Nice find!!!

[Morgoth]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

So only cards with one known copy should be preserved? C'mon...

No one knows how future card collectors will view this era in collecting. In 100 years, collectors may not care as much about grades, and may care more about aesthetics.

In the entire history of collecting anything this has happened zero times.

The most pristine examples of anything are worth more period. That will never change. Altered, cleaned, restored examples will bring far less.