Who is the GOAT?

[Onions]

Jordan

Year Salary Incentive Total Cash
1984-85 Player Cash Earnings $455,000 $100,000 - - $555,000
1985-86 Player Cash Earnings $630,000 - - - $630,000
1986-87 Player Cash Earnings $737,500 - - - $737,500
1987-88 Player Cash Earnings $795,000 $50,000 - - $845,000
1988-89 Player Cash Earnings $2,000,000 $50,000 - - $2,050,000
1989-90 Player Cash Earnings $2,250,000 $50,000 - - $2,300,000
1990-91 Player Cash Earnings $2,500,000 - - - $2,500,000
1991-92 Player Cash Earnings $3,250,000 - - - $3,250,000
1992-93 Player Cash Earnings $4,000,000 - - - $4,000,000
1993-94 Player Cash Earnings $4,000,000 - - - $4,000,000
1994-95 Player Cash Earnings $3,850,000 - - - $3,850,000
1995-96 Player Cash Earnings $3,850,000 - - - $3,850,000
1996-97 Player Cash Earnings $30,140,000 - - - $30,140,000
1997-98 Player Cash Earnings $33,140,000 - - - $33,140,000
2001-02 Player Cash Earnings $1,000,000 - - - $1,000,000
2002-03 Player Cash Earnings $1,030,000 - - - $1,030,000
Est. Earnings
(16 seasons) $93,627,500 $250,000 - - $93,877,500


Pippen

Year Salary Incentive Total Cash
1987-88 Player Cash Earnings $725,000 - - - $725,000
1988-89 Player Cash Earnings $575,000 - - - $575,000
1989-90 Player Cash Earnings $765,000 - - - $765,000
1990-91 Player Cash Earnings $765,000 - - - $765,000
1991-92 Player Cash Earnings $2,770,000 - - - $2,770,000
1992-93 Player Cash Earnings $3,425,000 - - - $3,425,000
1993-94 Player Cash Earnings $3,075,000 - - - $3,075,000
1994-95 Player Cash Earnings $2,225,000 - - - $2,225,000
1995-96 Player Cash Earnings $2,925,000 - - - $2,925,000
1996-97 Player Cash Earnings $2,250,000 - - - $2,250,000
1997-98 Player Cash Earnings $2,775,000 - - - $2,775,000
1998-99 Player Cash Earnings $11,000,000 - - - $11,000,000
1999-00 Player Cash Earnings $14,795,642 - - - $14,795,642
2000-01 Player Cash Earnings $13,750,000 - - - $13,750,000
2001-02 Player Cash Earnings $18,083,564 - - - $18,083,564
2002-03 Player Cash Earnings $19,727,524 - - - $19,727,524
2003-04 Player Cash Earnings $4,917,000 - - - $4,917,000
2004-05 Player Cash Earnings $5,408,700 - - - $5,408,700
Est. Earnings
(18 seasons) $109,957,430 - - - $109,957,430


Really doesn't seem too out of bounds to me.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by Onions

Jordan

Year Salary Incentive Total Cash
1984-85 Player Cash Earnings $455,000 $100,000 - - $555,000
1985-86 Player Cash Earnings $630,000 - - - $630,000
1986-87 Player Cash Earnings $737,500 - - - $737,500
1987-88 Player Cash Earnings $795,000 $50,000 - - $845,000
1988-89 Player Cash Earnings $2,000,000 $50,000 - - $2,050,000
1989-90 Player Cash Earnings $2,250,000 $50,000 - - $2,300,000
1990-91 Player Cash Earnings $2,500,000 - - - $2,500,000
1991-92 Player Cash Earnings $3,250,000 - - - $3,250,000
1992-93 Player Cash Earnings $4,000,000 - - - $4,000,000
1993-94 Player Cash Earnings $4,000,000 - - - $4,000,000
1994-95 Player Cash Earnings $3,850,000 - - - $3,850,000
1995-96 Player Cash Earnings $3,850,000 - - - $3,850,000
1996-97 Player Cash Earnings $30,140,000 - - - $30,140,000
1997-98 Player Cash Earnings $33,140,000 - - - $33,140,000
2001-02 Player Cash Earnings $1,000,000 - - - $1,000,000
2002-03 Player Cash Earnings $1,030,000 - - - $1,030,000
Est. Earnings
(16 seasons) $93,627,500 $250,000 - - $93,877,500


Pippen

Year Salary Incentive Total Cash
1987-88 Player Cash Earnings $725,000 - - - $725,000
1988-89 Player Cash Earnings $575,000 - - - $575,000
1989-90 Player Cash Earnings $765,000 - - - $765,000
1990-91 Player Cash Earnings $765,000 - - - $765,000
1991-92 Player Cash Earnings $2,770,000 - - - $2,770,000
1992-93 Player Cash Earnings $3,425,000 - - - $3,425,000
1993-94 Player Cash Earnings $3,075,000 - - - $3,075,000
1994-95 Player Cash Earnings $2,225,000 - - - $2,225,000
1995-96 Player Cash Earnings $2,925,000 - - - $2,925,000
1996-97 Player Cash Earnings $2,250,000 - - - $2,250,000
1997-98 Player Cash Earnings $2,775,000 - - - $2,775,000
1998-99 Player Cash Earnings $11,000,000 - - - $11,000,000
1999-00 Player Cash Earnings $14,795,642 - - - $14,795,642
2000-01 Player Cash Earnings $13,750,000 - - - $13,750,000
2001-02 Player Cash Earnings $18,083,564 - - - $18,083,564
2002-03 Player Cash Earnings $19,727,524 - - - $19,727,524
2003-04 Player Cash Earnings $4,917,000 - - - $4,917,000
2004-05 Player Cash Earnings $5,408,700 - - - $5,408,700
Est. Earnings
(18 seasons) $109,957,430 - - - $109,957,430


Really doesn't seem too out of bounds to me.

Just let him go on jumping through hoops to try to justify other reasons for MJ leading the team to 6 chips. MJ was also on an even more team friendly contract until the final 2 years, after winning 4 chips. No 3-peat without the irreplaceable players like Bill Wennington, Scott Burrell, and Randy Brown....

It did help though that Rodman was even more of a head case than Kyrie. Crazy that he was so insane that it only took Will Perdue to get him.

[wiper]

Originally Posted by Onions

Yeah, those early Jordan Bulls teams were pretty lean on talent. Swept a couple years back to back by an incredible Celtics team. First year he had Orlando Woolridge as a sidekick, and MJ averaged 43.7/5.7/6.3 + 2.3 steals per, & 1.3 blocks per with 51% shooting. The next year was with a Rookie Charles Oakley.

Considering he was playing with a bunch of crackheads, he did pretty well!

i think the main thing that irks me the most about this argument is that lebron people will say, well yeah. even the greatest need a team to help them.

mj guys will point and laugh at lebron getting swept that first finals when the actual accomplishment was even being there with the team he had.

that’s a specific. a more general gripe is mj guys not arguing in good faith. ever. lol

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by wiper

i think the main thing that irks me the most about this argument is that lebron people will say, well yeah. even the greatest need a team to help them.

mj guys will point and laugh at lebron getting swept that first finals when the actual accomplishment was even being there with the team he had.

that’s a specific. a more general gripe is mj guys not arguing in good faith. ever. lol

I think MJ guys just get tired of hearing the excuses year in and year out for why the "GOAT" doesn't win... There's always an excuse for why he didn't win, and it's never on him. MJ guys aren't used to excuses because he just let his winning do his talking, instead of always having to tell everyone how good he is, while losing.

When MJ lost, he never said "we're too top heavy" or "try to fit in instead of fit out" or "it's just basketball." He worked in the offseason and came back better. Again, no excuses.

[Onions]

Originally Posted by wiper

i think the main thing that irks me the most about this argument is that lebron people will say, well yeah. even the greatest need a team to help them.

mj guys will point and laugh at lebron getting swept that first finals when the actual accomplishment was even being there with the team he had.

that’s a specific. a more general gripe is mj guys not arguing in good faith. ever. lol

His best accomplishment might be getting there in 06-07. I agree with that, even if they did get swept. Not sure I'd be pounding the table over that though. Pretty weak Eastern Conference that year, but I did think the Pistons would have won that series at the time.

I'm not a huge basketball fan anymore (I still watch the playoffs), but I've seen both of these guys' full careers. It's not really even that close.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by wiper

i think the main thing that irks me the most about this argument is that lebron people will say, well yeah. even the greatest need a team to help them.

mj guys will point and laugh at lebron getting swept that first finals when the actual accomplishment was even being there with the team he had.

that’s a specific. a more general gripe is mj guys not arguing in good faith. ever. lol

Nobody in the East deserved to be in the NBA Finals in 2007. It was a laughing stock.

Basically it was gonna be V. Carter and Kidd, Billups, or LeBron.

The West had 6 better teams than the best team in the East.

Hell, the Cavs would have finished 6th in the West with their record and played the Spurs 1st round!

[dream34]

Man these GOAT rules are tough!

It is NOT ok to make excuses for that one guy who lost in the FINALS when his 2 co-stars were down and he put up historic numbers to push a series to 6 games, it's still a loss.

It IS ok for the other guy to lose in the FIRST round because he loss teammates to crack and he put up great numbers in a 3 game series.

Gotcha

[SleeperCards]

I can show you why the majority of voters are wrong with two simple pictures:


Anyone want to guess who the 5th guy was?

Anyone voting Jordan has to be doing it with their heart and not their brain.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by SleeperCards

I can show you why the majority of voters are wrong with two simple pictures:


Anyone want to guess who the 5th guy was?

Anyone voting Jordan has to be doing it with their heart and not their brain.

That Finals series vs the white boys from Charlotte was defs one of the best series of all time.

[6celtics33]

We finally made it to the too many white people segment of the show. I knew we’d get there.
Thanks Lebron for integration in 03-04.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by daeve

his contract was a legit gripe... MJ and Rodman didn't "cause distractions" either? - - more than Pip whined about Kukoc. Migraines and a bad back are a worse excuse than quitting on the team like MJ did to go "play baseball"? We can play this game all night.

I’m sure Jordan leaving did cause a distraction. I don’t know what you’re arguing though. When he was there they won. When he played his heart and mind were all about winning.

I can play the game too. Nobody made Scottie sign those contracts. Then he does and complains about it. Sounds like this bunch playing now. Get the team that can pay them to sign them the most then start wanting trades.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by daeve

And in the years they were winning, Pippen's steal of a contract [probably the most team-friendly ever for a superstar] allowed them to beef up their depth and become a dynasty. Pip's impact was really two-fold, being the defender he was and from a roster-building standpoint, absolutely giving the Chicago FO a huge advantage.

Tad aggressive on definition of “superstar” there

[drobfan8]

If you really want to judge. Let's ask some questions (which we'll never know the answer to)

Would Jordan take those early Cavs teams to the same records/results?
Yes he would have also beaten the oh so scary Gilbert Arenas and the gun slingers.
2007 I really doubt Jordan and parts loses to J. Kidd and V. Carter or Billups and Rip. I also think Jordan would at least take games off that 2007 Spurs team.
Would Jordan lose to that Dwight Magic team?

Jordan was already taking the Pistons to 7 game series with Pippen giving him very little.

Could you imagine LeBron being taken out in the air time and time again in the 80s?

I think it's actually disrespectful to call LeBron the number 2 GOAT. Individual player, maybe, but basketball is a team sport, and there are probably 5 or 6 guys that were greater than him.

He really should have more than 4 titles.

Can anyone think of LeBron's biggest shot he made? I know he called his jumpshot vs the Spurs when up 2 his "MJ" moment. Haha. Good grief.

[6celtics33]

^^^^, I feel fairly confident Jordan wouldn’t score 22 on 36% against the spurs. Or score 17.8 like Lebron did against Dallas and then act like it’s no big deal afterward.

I know that because win or lose, you never questioned if he cared or not.

[dream34]

All those “hypotheticals” and “my guy would never…” are good and all but you guys do know you are actually wrong right?

Lebron was actually younger when he got swept in the FINALS by the Spurs than MJ was when he got swept in the FIRST round by the Celtics.

No MJ would never average that little, he never did. Lebron ran through the East that year and went 12-4 to get to the Finals. MJ, a full year older, went 0-3 despite averaging 43 a game. For the umpteenth time, Scoring is not the only thing that matters.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by dream34

All those “hypotheticals” and “my guy would never…” are good and all but you guys do know you are actually wrong right?

Lebron was actually younger when he got swept in the FINALS by the Spurs than MJ was when he got swept in the FIRST round by the Celtics.

No MJ would never average that little, he never did. Lebron ran through the East that year and went 12-4 to get to the Finals. MJ, a full year older, went 0-3 despite averaging 43 a game. For the umpteenth time, Scoring is not the only thing that matters.

And…. Since you’re all about the “team game”, Jordan met the super team in the first round where he lost because Jordan’s team wasn’t worthy of a finals run. Lebron met the super team in the finals. Yes lots of hypotheticals. I hypothesize if Lebron’s team was so bad that he was the 8 seed he too would’ve lost to the Celtics 0-3. My evidence is that he’s been swept multiple times by super teams.

How he would’ve performed is up for debate. He could’ve put up 35-11-12 and had people saying he did everything he could.

Or he could have shot in the 30%’s or averaged points in the teens and planned his next trip out of town telling us it’s just basketball.

I’ve seen both versions.

[dream34]

I think the hardest thing for MJ guys to accept is context. This is not a did I score a 100 on my test type of thing. You actually have to play against someone and the context of not only who you play but who you have on your team matters.

MJ never won a series with a disadvantage. He never had to face those 80’s Lakers or Celtics in the Finals. For the “god” that he is he went 0-6 in the playoffs against the 80’s Celtics, 4-12 in the playoffs against the 80’s Pistons. This is extremely similar to Kobe before Gasol.

The Jazz team he beats in the Finals is an absolute powerhouse BUT his team is of course better. Harper the best player on the Clippers before joining the Bulls and Kukoc the best non-NBA player in the world are his 3rd & 4th best teammates.

[6celtics33]

Scoring isn’t the only thing that matters I agree with that. If that’s your job then doing it well matters. If your job is something else then doing it well matters.

An all encompassing score is game score metric. It takes more into account than scoring. It looks at it all. Lebron in 07 put up a whopping 10.6. Drew Golden and Boobie put up 9 and 8.5 for all they get made fun of. Lebron barely outperformed them.

Jordan’s finals game scores were

1998-21.4
1997-23.4
1996-18.5
1993-29.6
1992-25.8
1991-29.4

So at his finals worst, Jordan’s all encompassing # was almost double Lebron at his finals worst. So again, agree scoring isn’t all that matters.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by dream34

I think the hardest thing for MJ guys to accept is context. This is not a did I score a 100 on my test type of thing. You actually have to play against someone and the context of not only who you play but who you have on your team matters.

MJ never won a series with a disadvantage. He never had to face those 80’s Lakers or Celtics in the Finals. For the “god” that he is he went 0-6 in the playoffs against the 80’s Celtics, 4-12 in the playoffs against the 80’s Pistons. This is extremely similar to Kobe before Gasol.

The Jazz team he beats in the Finals is an absolute powerhouse BUT his team is of course better. Harper the best player on the Clippers before joining the Bulls and Kukoc the best non-NBA player in the world are his 3rd & 4th best teammates.

Ok, so let’s do this. Throw out the KD warriors. Let’s assume they are too good for anyone.

What part of Lebron building his team the way he wanted it in Miami and going 11-12 against 3 different non warrior franchises with a finals mvp as his sidekick and a guy who put up 23-11 as the leader of a playoff team as his 3rd wheel and Ray Allen in the Steve Kerr role as his role player. Also Battier who his 6 or 7 3s in a big finals game for them. All those contributions. It was bosh getting the rebound and Allen hitting the 3 after Lebron clanked a couple in game 6 against San Antonio or the record would be worse.

What part of that context do Lebron guys not get when you for example wrote how he single handedly did whatever he did.

[6celtics33]

I’ve never in my life in any sport seen anyone get torn down for who they beat this way while simultaneously holding up someone else for who they lose to. It really is hard to grasp.

Yes Portland sucks, Phoenix sucks, the lakers are old at 31 and magic winning mvp and finishing 2nd in mvp. But the late 30s spurs aren’t old when they beat Lebron. They’re a super team. Detroit is awesome when Lebron upsets them in 07.

It’s just double speak nonsense. Propaganda.

[dream34]

I’ve NEVER claimed Lebron single handedly won an NBA title. There’s actually no player, aside from Hakeem’s 1st title, to win one with little support.

It’s the context of who he played against. I do not think MJ’s Bulls fare much better (2 of 4) than Lebron’s Heat going against those teams.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by dream34

I’ve NEVER claimed Lebron single handedly won an NBA title. There’s actually no player, aside from Hakeem’s 1st title, to win one with little support.

It’s the context of who he played against. I do not think MJ’s Bulls fare much better (2 of 4) than Lebron’s Heat going against those teams.

No you said turned franchises around I agree. Not win a title.

On the other hypothetical, agree to disagree. We’ll never know.

[6celtics33]

And yes Hakeem’s title was impressive. He beat the Knicks in 7. It was a hard fought match. But Jordan gets no credit for beating the Knicks. They suck too when he plays them.

[jcmel323]

finally a poll that respects chamberlain.
At least he's 3rd...

GOAT = MJ

[daeve]

Originally Posted by Onions

Jordan

Year Salary Incentive Total Cash
1984-85 Player Cash Earnings $455,000 $100,000 - - $555,000
1985-86 Player Cash Earnings $630,000 - - - $630,000
1986-87 Player Cash Earnings $737,500 - - - $737,500
1987-88 Player Cash Earnings $795,000 $50,000 - - $845,000
1988-89 Player Cash Earnings $2,000,000 $50,000 - - $2,050,000
1989-90 Player Cash Earnings $2,250,000 $50,000 - - $2,300,000
1990-91 Player Cash Earnings $2,500,000 - - - $2,500,000
1991-92 Player Cash Earnings $3,250,000 - - - $3,250,000
1992-93 Player Cash Earnings $4,000,000 - - - $4,000,000
1993-94 Player Cash Earnings $4,000,000 - - - $4,000,000
1994-95 Player Cash Earnings $3,850,000 - - - $3,850,000
1995-96 Player Cash Earnings $3,850,000 - - - $3,850,000
1996-97 Player Cash Earnings $30,140,000 - - - $30,140,000
1997-98 Player Cash Earnings $33,140,000 - - - $33,140,000
2001-02 Player Cash Earnings $1,000,000 - - - $1,000,000
2002-03 Player Cash Earnings $1,030,000 - - - $1,030,000
Est. Earnings
(16 seasons) $93,627,500 $250,000 - - $93,877,500


Pippen

Year Salary Incentive Total Cash
1987-88 Player Cash Earnings $725,000 - - - $725,000
1988-89 Player Cash Earnings $575,000 - - - $575,000
1989-90 Player Cash Earnings $765,000 - - - $765,000
1990-91 Player Cash Earnings $765,000 - - - $765,000
1991-92 Player Cash Earnings $2,770,000 - - - $2,770,000
1992-93 Player Cash Earnings $3,425,000 - - - $3,425,000
1993-94 Player Cash Earnings $3,075,000 - - - $3,075,000
1994-95 Player Cash Earnings $2,225,000 - - - $2,225,000
1995-96 Player Cash Earnings $2,925,000 - - - $2,925,000
1996-97 Player Cash Earnings $2,250,000 - - - $2,250,000
1997-98 Player Cash Earnings $2,775,000 - - - $2,775,000
1998-99 Player Cash Earnings $11,000,000 - - - $11,000,000
1999-00 Player Cash Earnings $14,795,642 - - - $14,795,642
2000-01 Player Cash Earnings $13,750,000 - - - $13,750,000
2001-02 Player Cash Earnings $18,083,564 - - - $18,083,564
2002-03 Player Cash Earnings $19,727,524 - - - $19,727,524
2003-04 Player Cash Earnings $4,917,000 - - - $4,917,000
2004-05 Player Cash Earnings $5,408,700 - - - $5,408,700
Est. Earnings
(18 seasons) $109,957,430 - - - $109,957,430


Really doesn't seem too out of bounds to me.

lol. I never posted anything about Pippen having a gripe with the Portland Trailblazers [the team that actually paid him]. Take those years out and then compare again - we're talking about the Bulls here, the teams that won championships - try and stay on-topic

edit - also funny how you included MJ's 2 charity years with the Wizards to try and even it out.