Did WhatNot Open a FAKE 1986-87 Fleer Basketball Box at The National?

[badkarma318]

Latest statement from BBCE: https://www.bbcexchange.com/198687-f...sketball-x0851

[mrb842]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Actually, CC2 is great for the growth of the hobby. A new generation of collectors watch his videos and what he does. All I've seen him do is promote the hobby and particularly football. His trade nights at his shop is an example what every shop should be doing if we want the hobby to survive. You can see the positiveness he brings at the card shows he attends. The plus is that I don't see him give spiels about what to InVeSt NOW! in.

during the pandemic he was begging people to go out to stores to get retail to flip to him. A lot of shops refused to do that kind of thing. If you watch his videos you see him beating down people like the kid who sells high end brady slabs and sasha and other people on deals constantly. He's not a positive person. the 6 figure scam, this, the encouraging the retail flipping, the videos where he's knocking down people hard on prices. There are other folks worth working with.

This should be the end for bbce. Goldin I would have a hard time with going forward as well.

I have no idea what whatnot is but there are plenty of local guys and hard working young kids you can find out there for your business. They may not have flash but they don't have baggage.

[FBCardFan]

His theory is bunk, if Fleer overlaid multiple A or B sheets then the packs would have all contained double cards as it mixes A and B to get the sequence. Also an error that day would have produced more than 1 box that just happened to survive 36 years without being opened. If it was a unicorn box then why did any of the other packs not being the 2 replaced packs have normal sequencing? What is more plausible, that this is a one of a kind box that had various issues or was a repack since 1 of the packs that was deemed resealed had the exact same pattern as 29 other packs? My pack doesn't fit any of your sequences as mine started with an Erving and went to King
Then flipped from Johnson to Flemming and contained a second Erving. So are 2 flips normal? What about the pack that had a sticker on the front and back? You also have the pack that had multiple duplicates in it. Way to many oddities for a box.

Sorry, your conclusion doesn't fit. What makes the most sense is some opened the box years ago (pre-COVID) and made sets. Then years later (post COVID) got the bright idea to repack the box as the set with lower grade cards is worth a fraction of what a box would be.

[mrb842]

Apparently PSA uses bbce for authentication. that contract needs to go. Dissapointed to see Otia sports and Jason Koonce backing bbce who are probably big clients despite the facts pointing otherwise. Someone like a big guy like turner or koonce could probably eat a bad box or pack but regular collectors can't and the hobby really can't take more hits like this.

[duron]

Originally Posted by mrb842

Apparently PSA uses bbce for authentication. that contract needs to go. Dissapointed to see Otia sports and Jason Koonce backing bbce who are probably big clients despite the facts pointing otherwise. Someone like a big guy like turner or koonce could probably eat a bad box or pack but regular collectors can't and the hobby really can't take more hits like this.

This isn't Koonce's first/main issue.

[Woodsy074]

Originally Posted by mrb842

Apparently PSA uses bbce for authentication. that contract needs to go. Dissapointed to see Otia sports and Jason Koonce backing bbce who are probably big clients despite the facts pointing otherwise. Someone like a big guy like turner or koonce could probably eat a bad box or pack but regular collectors can't and the hobby really can't take more hits like this.

There is a pretty important guy who owns PSA that has a very valuable collection of boxes wrapped by BBCE and PSA graded packs. Highly doubt this guy is going to do anything that jeopardizes that value like terminating the BBCE contract.

[duron]

Originally Posted by Woodsy074

There is a pretty important guy who owns PSA that has a very valuable collection of boxes wrapped by BBCE and PSA graded packs. Highly doubt this guy is going to do anything that jeopardizes that value like terminating the BBCE contract.

That room gives me fever dreams. More boxes than cards I own.

[theleica]

Originally Posted by badkarma318

Latest statement from BBCE: https://www.bbcexchange.com/198687-f...sketball-x0851

My lord this is long winded.

He uses 100% a lot. 100% authentic. 100% continuity. 100% original. 100% confident. 100% certainty. 100% untampered with and unsearched.

"As you can see, these packs are not “completely off” in the collation. In fact, the collation is spot-on. We have been doing this for decades now. We have seen it all. We have studied not only the packs themselves but opened the resealed ones to get a feel for the cards also. It would pretty much take the mind of a genius to reseal the pack, take the cards like this, then have them flip over in the exact same spot. Then have them pick up the same alphabetical order again, in two different packs."

If it was so genius, it wouldn't be spotted, right?

[mrb842]

Originally Posted by duron

This isn't Koonce's first/main issue.

go on

[MIRRABB]

Originally Posted by badkarma318

Latest statement from BBCE: https://www.bbcexchange.com/198687-f...sketball-x0851

i ain't reading all of that
i'm happy for u tho
or sorry that happened

[brettmik59]

Originally Posted by theleica

If I send 36 packs of 86 Fleer to BBCE, will he put together a box for me?

Only if you re-seal them all nicely

[duron]

Originally Posted by mrb842

go on

I don't think the forum search function has been working properly.

Google search "blowoutforums koonce otia"

[ShaqMagic]

Originally Posted by FBCardFan

The one at 1:54 is straight alphabetical order

It absolutely is not. Just to demonstrate with the first 4; at 1:54:08 we get "frank" (frank johnson 52), 1:54:10 "kiki" (kiki 117), 1:54:15 "eddie johnson", (eddie johnson 51) 1:54:19 "Melvin" (Melvin Turpin 116).

(This is the video again for anyone wondering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu-wQsrvLqs)

[ShaqMagic]

Originally Posted by badkarma318

Latest statement from BBCE: https://www.bbcexchange.com/198687-f...sketball-x0851

He says "As earlier stated, we were able to view the video of all 36 packs of this box being opened. WhatNot shared the video of this box being opened with us. We look forward WhatNot releasing the full video so all can enjoy."

I really hope that video surfaces (whether from whatnot or not).

[RogerGodahell]

What a long winded spiel. He really doubles and triples down on his belief there could not possibly be any shenanigans involved. Personally i still don't believe him but everyone will have to make their own conclusion.


These excerpts from his diatribe stood out to me.

We immediately began to investigate this strange collation. However, not once did we question our decision to authenticate this box.

Really, not once huh? It never even made you raise an eyebrow that 80% of the box was in numerical/alphabetical order.

Personally i don't care about the flip cards breaking up the sequence. It's useful to understanding why they are there in general but that is getting off in the weeds. Yes we understand there are naturally occurring flip card in authentic packs and boxes that break up the 66 spacing sequence. But then it is usually reset. It's irrelevant to this particular box and it's peculiar sequence.

He then goes on to talk about a couple other breaks he's witnessed where the flip card resets the sequence.

The closest evidence he provides to the National Whatnot box is the Drake box where in 4 separate packs there were 2 cards that are in numerical order. Kind of apples to oranges comparison and who's to say that box wasn't tampered with as well? That box doesn't vindicate this one.


Then we get to the Whatnot box as he closes things out. He does list the order and the sequence of the packs. Most of them i think 28 are in numerical/alphabetical order minus the flip card starting it over. This excerpt is one of my favorites.

As you can see, these packs are not “completely off” in the collation. In fact, the collation is spot-on.

This box is 100% untampered with and unsearched. Everyone who handled this box from the consignor, to auction, to opening the box did nothing nefarious. The box was never switched out nor tampered with after we wrapped it.

Nothing unusual about this box at all huh? Completely normal he says. If fact they're spot on according to Steve.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by MIRRABB

i ain't reading all of that
i'm happy for u tho
or sorry that happened

Pretty much, takes a mathematical understanding, visualization technique, a diagram or two and two large pictures of the two Fleer sheets front and back. They were indeed working on it over the weekend. I would like WhatNot to release the full video but I'm going to guess its not important to them. I didn't know what WhatNot did before this as well.

[auburn35]

Everyone who handled this box from the consignor, to auction, to opening the box did nothing nefarious.

The Consignor and/or Goldin that elected to sell the box without disclosing the BBCE letter or mention there was only one Jordan sticker, are without fault?

[pip]

That 1986 Fleer box is just too unbelievable. There are too many cards out of order, too many cards allegedly missing, and I don't buy the freshness of two of the Jordans. One of the PSA 7s has WAY too much corner wear for a card taken from a pack. The PSA 6 also appears to be a PSA 8, so it obviously has some other flaw that can't been seen from the scan (I'm sure Steve would tell us it has some kind of unusual factory defect).

I should mentioned that I've had more than one negative experience with BBCE authentication methods over the years that have led me to believe that I do not think Steve is objective in how he evaluates unopened product.

One of my experiences concerns a box I "bought" from a dealer at a convention I attended about a decade ago. It was BBCE wrapped so I made the dealer an offer: I'd give him what he was asking if I could open the box and inspect the packs. If they checked out, it was a done deal. It turned out the cards inside the packs did not match the year of the box. Needless to say, they were not of the same vintage or value. Sure hope the dealer got his money back but I never followed up with him.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by auburn35

The Consignor and/or Goldin that elected to sell the box without disclosing the BBCE letter or mention there was only one Jordan sticker, are without fault?

Does BBCE give a letter with every 86F box?

[pip]

Originally Posted by SpartanWarrior

I'm not sure what is more hilarious.

The fact that not one of the "influencers" had a clue? Or the fact that there are people that seemed shocked and surprised that Steve Hart hasn't a clue?

Come on folks. This hobby has been in the gutter since the 1980's. Rob Lifson stealing cards from the NY Public Library. Bill Mastro trimming and shill bidding. Doug Allen shill bidding. Gary Moser master trimmer (along with about 10 other guys). Mike Baker keeping cards when GAI went under. Mike Baker keeping cards when Global Authority went under. Dave Forman (owner of SGC) having his own cards graded and his brother shilling his cards in Mastro Auctions. PSA dealers getting grade bumps. Those are the good old days!

Now we have Steve Hart wrapping anything that comes with payments. PSA grading tons of trimmed cards. CC2 running fake PSA group submission business. Influencers pumping whatever they are told to pump and receiving "sweet" free stuff for their troubles. Marx Cards eating for everyone and breakers just generally screwing everyone. Fake comps, Fake sales, tons more shill bidding.

And the sheep just keep on handing their money over.

I'm waiting for the first vault company to go BK. That is when the *&*% will really hit the fan. Bet Mike Baker will be there to scoop up some of those cards too! Even put a few stickers on them on the way out the door!

Good summary. To this I would add that all Steve Hart had to do on the Pokemon case was scan the barcode with an app on his phone. Pretty basic stuff.

[grade]

BBCE. Wouldnt the 2 replacement packs out of the slabs be a totally different correlation from the original 34 packs?

This is getting weird.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by grade

BBCE. Wouldnt the 2 replacement packs out of the slabs be a totally different correlation from the original 34 packs?

This is getting weird.

Yeah, it's a 36 pack box, get with the program.

[grade]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Yeah, it's a 36 pack box, get with the program.

36 - 2 (loose wrap) + 2(PSA 8 packs) = 36 .
I guess sportscards math is different from Pokemon math.
No wonder Pokemon collectors make more money.

What ever happened to the guy with the vintage collection selling for graded prices?

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by pip

I should mentioned that I've had more than one negative experience with BBCE authentication methods over the years that have led me to believe that I do not think Steve is objective in how he evaluates unopened product.

One of my experiences concerns a box I "bought" from a dealer at a convention I attended about a decade ago. It was BBCE wrapped so I made the dealer an offer: I'd give him what he was asking if I could open the box and inspect the packs. If they checked out, it was a done deal. It turned out the cards inside the packs did not match the year of the box. Needless to say, they were not of the same vintage or value. Sure hope the dealer got his money back but I never followed up with him.

Seriously, it's a factory anomaly by Topps. They used to take old wrappers and use them for current year product. Shouldn't be missed though.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by grade

36 - 2 (loose wrap) + 2(PSA 8 packs) = 36 .
I guess sportscards math is different from Pokemon math.
No wonder Pokemon collectors make more money.

What ever happened to the guy with the vintage collection selling for graded prices?

Haha, I think he changed his username to the guy trying to sell a $250,000 collection of 2006-2010 football monster boxes for $150,000. Multiple $10k cards chump! Of course, no pictures, no list, no mention of big TB12 cards......