PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc - Page 115

Archangel1775 · 06-10-2019, 10:49 PM

Wow, that Mays had an artist touch it up. Must be the "conservation" PWCC is talking about. douchebags

ThoseBackPages · 06-10-2019, 11:06 PM

i wonder of PSA kicked back that Jackie

Saraste · 06-11-2019, 01:16 AM

I may be seeing things but it looks like the bottom left corner of the '52 Mays has been touched up a bit.

HarryLime · 06-11-2019, 11:43 AM

Brent is a full-blown DSM narcissistic sociopath if he believes that he is working with authorities to help right the wrongs that have been done. That buffoon is going to get chewed up by professional investigators and end up implicating himself and others at PWCC faster than he can say "this is your best work yet, Gary!"

Say it with me now.... RRRRRIIIIICCCCCOOOOO!

Arthur

signed79 · 06-11-2019, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Brent is a full-blown DSM narcissistic sociopath if he believes that he is working with authorities to help right the wrongs that have been done. That buffoon is going to get chewed up by professional investigators and end up implicating himself and others at PWCC faster than he can say "this is your best work yet, Gary!"

Say it with me now.... RRRRRIIIIICCCCCOOOOO!

Arthur

rico suave

SetBuilder · 06-11-2019, 05:08 PM

I found something, but it's not a card.

Go to this forum post, scroll down to post #7, and watch the video:
https://forums.collectors.com/discus...ices-requested. Direct video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVf3i5xuJLQ.

Turns out PSA has had the technology to scan and detect altered cards since at least the beginning of 2011, if not longer.

Shocking if you think about the recent discoveries of altered cards.

salthill · 06-11-2019, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Turns out PSA has had the technology to scan and detect altered cards since at least the beginning of 2011, if not longer.
Shocking if you think about the recent discoveries of altered cards.

Nope, coins aren’t cards. The unique physical aspects of each coin that are being measured aren’t present in a card. Also the time it takes just to scan one side of the coin is longer than a grader has to fully grade a card.

SetBuilder · 06-11-2019, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salthill

Nope, coins aren’t cards. The unique physical aspects of each coin that are being measured aren’t present in a card. Also the time it takes just to scan one side of the coin is longer than a grader has to fully grade a card.

According to you, cards have no “unique physical aspects?”

That view is clearly wrong, as this thread has shown.

3124508 on COMC · 06-11-2019, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

According to you, cards have no “unique physical aspects?”

That view is clearly wrong, as this thread has shown.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s the 3D features on the coin that are being assessed. Big difference imo.

SetBuilder · 06-11-2019, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s the 3D features on the coin that are being assessed. Big difference imo.

What’s the difference? Are you saying that scanning the surface topography of a coin is somehow easier to do than checking for printing dots?

I don’t get why one is harder to do than the other. PSA has had this 3D coin technology for at least 8 years, which is roughly the same time it took NASA to engineer landing a human on the moon and returning him safely back to earth.

Yet, somehow PSA couldn’t implement or adapt this technology to cards?

rcmb3220 · 06-11-2019, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

What’s the difference? Are you saying that scanning the surface topography of a coin is somehow easier to do than checking for printing dots?

I don’t get why one is harder to do than the other. PSA has had this 3D coin technology for at least 8 years, which is roughly the same time it took NASA to engineer landing a human on the moon and returning him safely back to earth.

Yet, somehow PSA couldn’t implement or adapt this technology to cards?

Who else are you?

salthill · 06-11-2019, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

What’s the difference? Are you saying that scanning the surface topography of a coin is somehow easier to do than checking for printing dots?

Yes, it is. It’s a completely different technology.
The moon landing comment was a nice touch though. I like my trolls with a little flair.

SetBuilder · 06-11-2019, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salthill

Yes, it is. It’s a completely different technology.
The moon landing comment was a nice touch though. I like my trolls with a little flair.

Did you even watch the video I linked from 2011? You don’t think the same tech with minor improvements could have automatically detected a good percentage of the cards discovered here on this thread through manual work?

salthill · 06-11-2019, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Did you even watch the video I linked from 2011? You don’t think the same tech with minor improvements could have automatically detected a good percentage of the cards discovered here on this thread through manual work?

Dunning-Kruger in full effect

SetBuilder · 06-11-2019, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salthill

Dunning-Kruger in full effect

Each card when scanned in high resolution should have a unique layout of printing dots/ink on the surface, due to natural variations in printing and wear, and thus a unique quantifiable fingerprint. Just like the coins.

I’m sorry you’re slow and I have to explain this to you.

MoreToppsPlease · 06-11-2019, 11:02 PM

Not sure if this was brought up here or in another thread: is it possible to download entire registries, including submission dates?

One could use a database to look at/analyze the frequency each grade (6, 7, 8.5, 9, 9.5, 10, etc) was assigned over all time *and* over a specific period for both specific cards and sets?

I’m sure the grading companies already do this as a measure of quality control. Such data could also be used to spot shenanigans.

salthill · 06-12-2019, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Each card when scanned in high resolution should have a unique layout of printing dots/ink on the surface, due to natural variations in printing and wear, and thus a unique quantifiable fingerprint. Just like the coins.

I’m sorry you’re slow and I have to explain this to you.

Which is not what that scanner measures. Unless applying the ink makes the surface detectably higher than the rest of the card. (Hint: it doesn’t.) So “the same tech with minor improvements” is useless - it’s an entirely different set of measurements.
I understand your frustration - it’s probably the same feeling you get trying to use your weighing scales to measure your height.

corndog · 06-12-2019, 02:50 AM

PSA Cert #41697360

1954 Bowman George Blanda RC #23

Value gain of $704.95

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC as a raw ungraded copy on August 23, 2017 for $71.05. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1534239
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-8.5 for $776.00 on November 18, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1857625

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers.
Red squares show obvious rough cut trimming to two sides. Brent calls this "pack fresh". Possible color touching to spots on jersey (could be scanning specs).

corndog · 06-12-2019, 03:05 AM

PSA Cert #24507422

1948 Leaf Jack Dempsey #1

Value gain of $377.50

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC as a PSA-6 on May 26, 2015 for $177.50. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1117286
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-7 for $555.00 on October 21, 2015. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1178940

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers.
Red squares show left edge was trimmed.

corndog · 06-12-2019, 03:25 AM

PSA Cert #24507621

1948 Leaf Harrell Collins #67

Value gain of $283.62

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC as a PSA-6 on May 20, 2015 for $149.50. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1115127
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-8 for $433.12 on March 24, 2019. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1932432

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers.
Red squares show trimming to both sides.

2010GBPackers · 06-12-2019, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salthill

Which is not what that scanner measures. Unless applying the ink makes the surface detectably higher than the rest of the card. (Hint: it doesn’t.) So “the same tech with minor improvements” is useless - it’s an entirely different set of measurements.
I understand your frustration - it’s probably the same feeling you get trying to use your weighing scales to measure your height.

I think what SetBuilder is saying is that PSA is fully capable of having high resolution scanners that could be used to build a database each card they grade. It would be able to identify the card's exact dimensions and print marks of the card. In theory, a scanner similar to the one for coins (and posted in one of the PWCC threads which has a patent pending) would be able to pick up on ink not original to the card and foreign substances such as bleach. If the same card were to come back to them, it would be able to be identified and measured against the previous submitted card. I'm not sure why there was a fight about this. It was fairly clear what he was trying to say.

HarryLime · 06-12-2019, 09:14 AM

Aren't the cards surfaced after printing? This is how Moser has been able to get recoloring past PSA graders -- after recoloring, he's been resurfacing the gloss on the cards, so that whatever work he's done appears to have occurred before the card's original surfacing was applied.

So a card does not have a unique fingerprint created by the printing process on the surface that could be measured 3-dimensionally. The unique fibers are visible under the gloss, which is how our badass team of Ponch, John, and that tall skinny guy that rode in the cruiser (you guys can figure out who is who amongst yourselves) were able to photo-match the before and afters.

Arthur

corndog · 06-12-2019, 06:40 PM

***NOTE: These four cards and the other three from two days ago were all purchased by Gary Moser under his whitman111 Ebay ID. All seven cards are 1953 Parkhurst Jean Beliveau. Five of the seven cards were purchased by sellers other than PWCC and two were from PWCC. These cards were tediously researched and discovered by a fellow Blowout member who passed along the very useful information. This is a good example of just how prolific Gary Moser was at altering vintage Parkhurst hockey cards. I and others could probably spend several weeks just posting altered Parkhurst cards as the list is long. In time, we can probably set up a database (as mentioned by SuperDan) and have a Parkhurst section for collectors to check.
The other three cards were posted two days ago.

PSA Cert #42313767

1953 Parkhurst Jean Beliveau RC #27

Value gain of $3,697.00

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from ksksvintage as a PSA-4 on August 23, 2018 for $560.00. Worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ean-1942432609
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-7 for $4,257.00 on March 25, 2019. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1934580

From the PSA-7 PWCC listing description: "Rates a '2' on our eye appeal scale with great centering and four mostly sharp corners. Rarely does this cad look so good."

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers. I have confirmed four fibers on the back which makes it a match.
Red squares show at least one edge has been trimmed.

corndog · 06-12-2019, 07:14 PM

PSA Cert #27581436

1953 Parkhurst Jean Beliveau RC #27

Value gain of $2,206.00

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from somatg3 as a PSA-5 on January 05, 2017 for $560.00. Worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...eal-1848680697
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-7 for $2,766.00 on September 26, 2017. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1552269

From the PSA-7 PWCC listing description: "A wonderfully preserved specimen..."

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers. I have confirmed four fibers on the back which makes it a match.
Red squares show a trimmed edge.

corndog · 06-12-2019, 07:39 PM

PSA Cert #41697371

1953 Parkhurst Jean Beliveau RC #27

Value gain of $6,007.00

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC as a PSA-6 on June 24, 2018 for $748.00. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1678679
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-8 for $6,755.00 on November 21, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1859814

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers.
Red squares show trimmed edges.

06-10-2019, 10:49 PM	#2851
Archangel1775 Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Cali baby! Posts: 21,861	Wow, that Mays had an artist touch it up. Must be the "conservation" PWCC is talking about. douchebags __________________ *There are the intangibles that set someone apart from the pack.So the blur isn't your inability to see his greatness, it's merely the inability to measure it.*

06-10-2019, 11:06 PM	#2852
ThoseBackPages Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Long Island Posts: 90,095 ThoseBackPages	i wonder of PSA kicked back that Jackie __________________ Pumpers Paradise #YouCryIBuy Four things that we cannot change each others minds about: Politics, Religion, Third Party Grading, and 2021 Bowman's Best Rookie Cards

06-11-2019, 01:16 AM	#2853
Saraste Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Sound Asleep Posts: 19,170 kesscards	I may be seeing things but it looks like the bottom left corner of the '52 Mays has been touched up a bit. __________________ The strange looks I get from customers at shows when they are selling and I ask for NASCAR! Which is the most accurate voice to read posts in: Saraste as a corpse - oldgoldy97 12/19/23

06-11-2019, 11:02 PM	#2866
MoreToppsPlease Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 8,676	‘52 Mantle PWCC auction Not sure if this was brought up here or in another thread: is it possible to download entire registries, including submission dates? One could use a database to look at/analyze the frequency each grade (6, 7, 8.5, 9, 9.5, 10, etc) was assigned over all time and over a specific period for both specific cards and sets? I’m sure the grading companies already do this as a measure of quality control. Such data could also be used to spot shenanigans. __________________ IRS Tax Tip 2022-57 A hobby is any activity that a person pursues because they enjoy it and with no intention of making a profit. People operate a business with the intention of making a profit. Last edited by MoreToppsPlease; 06-11-2019 at 11:16 PM.

06-12-2019, 02:50 AM	#2868
corndog BODA Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: From a table in McDonalds, with lovely fake flowers on it. Posts: 17,929	PSA Cert #41697360 1954 Bowman George Blanda RC #23 Value gain of $704.95 This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC as a raw ungraded copy on August 23, 2017 for $71.05. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1534239 Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-8.5 for $776.00 on November 18, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1857625 Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers. Red squares show obvious rough cut trimming to two sides. Brent calls this "pack fresh". Possible color touching to spots on jersey (could be scanning specs). __________________ He has no rival, He has no equal.

06-11-2019, 11:43 AM	#2854
HarryLime Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Spaceball 1 Posts: 4,794	Brent is a full-blown DSM narcissistic sociopath if he believes that he is working with authorities to help right the wrongs that have been done. That buffoon is going to get chewed up by professional investigators and end up implicating himself and others at PWCC faster than he can say "this is your best work yet, Gary!" Say it with me now.... RRRRRIIIIICCCCCOOOOO! Arthur

06-11-2019, 05:08 PM	#2856
SetBuilder Member Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Paradise Posts: 376	I found something, but it's not a card. Go to this forum post, scroll down to post #7, and watch the video: https://forums.collectors.com/discus...ices-requested. Direct video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVf3i5xuJLQ. Turns out PSA has had the technology to scan and detect altered cards since at least the beginning of 2011, if not longer. Shocking if you think about the recent discoveries of altered cards.

06-12-2019, 03:05 AM	#2869
corndog BODA Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: From a table in McDonalds, with lovely fake flowers on it. Posts: 17,929	PSA Cert #24507422 1948 Leaf Jack Dempsey #1 Value gain of $377.50 This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC as a PSA-6 on May 26, 2015 for $177.50. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1117286 Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-7 for $555.00 on October 21, 2015. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1178940 Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers. Red squares show left edge was trimmed. __________________ He has no rival, He has no equal.

06-12-2019, 03:25 AM	#2870
corndog BODA Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: From a table in McDonalds, with lovely fake flowers on it. Posts: 17,929	PSA Cert #24507621 1948 Leaf Harrell Collins #67 Value gain of $283.62 This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC as a PSA-6 on May 20, 2015 for $149.50. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1115127 Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-8 for $433.12 on March 24, 2019. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1932432 Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers. Red squares show trimming to both sides. __________________ He has no rival, He has no equal.

06-12-2019, 09:14 AM	#2872
HarryLime Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Spaceball 1 Posts: 4,794	Aren't the cards surfaced after printing? This is how Moser has been able to get recoloring past PSA graders -- after recoloring, he's been resurfacing the gloss on the cards, so that whatever work he's done appears to have occurred before the card's original surfacing was applied. So a card does not have a unique fingerprint created by the printing process on the surface that could be measured 3-dimensionally. The unique fibers are visible under the gloss, which is how our badass team of Ponch, John, and that tall skinny guy that rode in the cruiser (you guys can figure out who is who amongst yourselves) were able to photo-match the before and afters. Arthur

06-12-2019, 06:40 PM	#2873
corndog BODA Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: From a table in McDonalds, with lovely fake flowers on it. Posts: 17,929	*NOTE: These four cards and the other three from two days ago were all purchased by Gary Moser under his whitman111 Ebay ID. All seven cards are 1953 Parkhurst Jean Beliveau. Five of the seven cards were purchased by sellers other than PWCC and two were from PWCC. These cards were tediously researched and discovered by a fellow Blowout member who passed along the very useful information. This is a good example of just how prolific Gary Moser was at altering vintage Parkhurst hockey cards. I and others could probably spend several weeks just posting altered Parkhurst cards as the list is long. In time, we can probably set up a database (as mentioned by SuperDan) and have a Parkhurst section for collectors to check. The other three cards were posted two days ago. PSA Cert #42313767 1953 Parkhurst Jean Beliveau RC #27 Value gain of $3,697.00 This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from ksksvintage as a PSA-4 on August 23, 2018 for $560.00. Worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ean-1942432609 Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-7 for $4,257.00 on March 25, 2019. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1934580 From the PSA-7 PWCC listing description: "Rates a '2' on our eye appeal scale with great centering and four mostly sharp corners. Rarely does this cad look so good." Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers. I have confirmed four fibers on the back which makes it a match. Red squares show at least one edge has been trimmed. __________________ He has no rival, He has no equal.**

06-12-2019, 07:14 PM	#2874
corndog BODA Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: From a table in McDonalds, with lovely fake flowers on it. Posts: 17,929	PSA Cert #27581436 1953 Parkhurst Jean Beliveau RC #27 Value gain of $2,206.00 This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from somatg3 as a PSA-5 on January 05, 2017 for $560.00. Worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...eal-1848680697 Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-7 for $2,766.00 on September 26, 2017. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1552269 From the PSA-7 PWCC listing description: "A wonderfully preserved specimen..." Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers. I have confirmed four fibers on the back which makes it a match. Red squares show a trimmed edge. __________________ He has no rival, He has no equal. Last edited by corndog; 06-13-2019 at 02:34 PM.

06-12-2019, 07:39 PM	#2875
corndog BODA Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: From a table in McDonalds, with lovely fake flowers on it. Posts: 17,929	PSA Cert #41697371 1953 Parkhurst Jean Beliveau RC #27 Value gain of $6,007.00 This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC as a PSA-6 on June 24, 2018 for $748.00. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1678679 Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-8 for $6,755.00 on November 21, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1859814 Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers. Red squares show trimmed edges. __________________ He has no rival, He has no equal.