Is Jayson Tatum the best player on the Celtics?

[Nomad]

Butler is gonna have a personal vendetta.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Nomad

Butler is gonna have a personal vendetta.

why would he have a vendetta, it was a Butler-less Heat the Celts blew away

and if he did have a vendetta, would he be healthy/available and not-in-decline enough to do anything?

[Nomad]

Sorry, didn't really watch that series, it was over so quick.

But maybe that's why I would have a vendetta. Tatum dissing a team when their key player wasn't even in it.

[drobfan8]

I mean, good on Tatum for feeling like the monkey is off his back.

But he's not that guy. He is not gonna enjoy having a target on his back.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by ninjabum87

Most people don't want to collect someone whose legacy was a really good player on a really good team. They want to collect legendary players where people sit around a campfire 20 years from now and a kid goes "how good was so and so?" and grandpa goes "ho ho, lemme tell ya a story about that mf'er..."

People gravitate towards the "he changed the game"/"nobody could stop him for over a decade"/"defined an era" guys, like it or not. They aren't usually out there saying "damn this guy could have a Tmac/Melo/Russ-esque hobby following in 20 years." Many of the folks involved right now are just trying to catch the next rocket to outer Space ala MJ/Lebron/Steph/Kobe.

If you don't fall into that realm you gotta have something distinct going for you. I do think if Tatum had Edwards' personality people would be creaming themselves more.

That is true in some ways,but there are many examples of guys that were damn near unstoppable 1st ballot guys that get very little hobby love.Think Moses,Timmy,Malone,Shaq,Ice man,Baylor and more.sometimes its just a straight up popularity contest.

[Guitarpatch]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

I mean, good on Tatum for feeling like the monkey is off his back.

But he's not that guy. He is not gonna enjoy having a target on his back.

I don’t think players like Tatum get to where they’re at without the ability to play with a “target on their back”. That’s probably been happening since he was in grade school

The Tatum hate is weird. He’s been the best player on a contending team for the last 5 years. Finally gets over the hump by adding to his game at an elite level to help his team win. He cut down on the turnovers as a playmaker, got stronger on the boards to play against big men, and can still defend the perimeter. That’s on top of creating double teams and number advantages for the offense. He’s an All NBA talent


He’s learned how to affect the game at an elite level if his shot isn’t falling and the team has learned how to play off of him and his gravity

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by Guitarpatch

I don’t think players like Tatum get to where they’re at without the ability to play with a “target on their back”. That’s probably been happening since he was in grade school

The Tatum hate is weird. He’s been the best player on a contending team for the last 5 years. Finally gets over the hump by adding to his game at an elite level to help his team win. He cut down on the turnovers as a playmaker, got stronger on the boards to play against big men, and can still defend the perimeter. That’s on top of creating double teams and number advantages for the offense. He’s an All NBA talent


He’s learned how to affect the game at an elite level if his shot isn’t falling and the team has learned how to play off of him and his gravity

On top of all this, he seems to be a likable dude.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

On top of all this, he seems to be a likable dude.

He should embrace the villain role. Start nut punching and blasting current players while doing halftime shows.

[ninjabum87]

Originally Posted by Gary

That is true in some ways,but there are many examples of guys that were damn near unstoppable 1st ballot guys that get very little hobby love.Think Moses,Timmy,Malone,Shaq,Ice man,Baylor and more.sometimes its just a straight up popularity contest.

Yeah it very often goes that way too. Elapsed time and big man syndrome hit a lot of them but sometimes it's just playstyle. Karl Malone got a 13 year old pregnant so that prolly dampens enthusiasm on him a bit.

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

He should embrace the villain role. Start nut punching and blasting current players while doing halftime shows.

You’re right. He’d have more defenders if he acted like that.

[AwesomeBrian]

Originally Posted by Guitarpatch

I don’t think players like Tatum get to where they’re at without the ability to play with a “target on their back”. That’s probably been happening since he was in grade school

The Tatum hate is weird. He’s been the best player on a contending team for the last 5 years. Finally gets over the hump by adding to his game at an elite level to help his team win. He cut down on the turnovers as a playmaker, got stronger on the boards to play against big men, and can still defend the perimeter. That’s on top of creating double teams and number advantages for the offense. He’s an All NBA talent


He’s learned how to affect the game at an elite level if his shot isn’t falling and the team has learned how to play off of him and his gravity

Duke
Boston
100 Turnovers in a single postseason
Cringe celebrations

Lots to overcome. Homers will love him (Rightly so now that he was on a title winning team) but the normal stigma associated with the things he does will keep the haters hating.

[Nomad]

So in other words, he's a pacifier, not a lightning rod. On the other extreme we have reckless Ant. Trae, who's not getting much taller. Book, who would be just as annoying as tate if he ever won anything. Ja, Zion. Which highly touted pick has established himself as a hobby hero?

[Nomad]

On the other hand, if steelmanning a Tatum defense, he is a great orchestrator who is willing to sacrifice stats (and preserve his knees) in order to be a distributor of the highest order. He has benefitted, as did Nesmith, from Pritchard's insights at point. He has also learned how to share the stage. He and Brown are great friends and teammates, and he knows the best way to keep that camaraderie going is to give everyone their flowers.

From my vantage as a collector, he also let Nesmith have his breakout 38-point comeback performance against the Spurs (not even on crash's personal top 5 list), which engendered a short lived BO thread "Aaron Nesmith - Rookie of the Year?" (Of course Tatum's son got the game ball and Boston wisely decided that, although they might win some exciting games, they might shorten players' careers if they let crash play). When that thread got maybe two responses in four months, I decided to start one with a title I thought was too good not to be used.

After all, falling is an act of humbling yourself and learning from each player (in other words, trash talk), and in a sense Tatum and LeBron are both masters of this. And yeah, I think we need to start the Tatum - LeBron discussion only if and when the Celtics win another ring. Pacers, Thunder, Timber, Nugs, probably Grizz, and NY and LA now have a couple thoughts in this direction.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Guitarpatch

I don’t think players like Tatum get to where they’re at without the ability to play with a “target on their back”. That’s probably been happening since he was in grade school

The Tatum hate is weird. He’s been the best player on a contending team for the last 5 years. Finally gets over the hump by adding to his game at an elite level to help his team win. He cut down on the turnovers as a playmaker, got stronger on the boards to play against big men, and can still defend the perimeter. That’s on top of creating double teams and number advantages for the offense. He’s an All NBA talent


He’s learned how to affect the game at an elite level if his shot isn’t falling and the team has learned how to play off of him and his gravity

not to mention his availability/minutes played

he's definitely more valuable much of the time than Embiid for example

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Nomad

From my vantage as a collector, he also let Nesmith have his breakout 38-point comeback performance against the Spurs

That's what I think of when I think of Tatum - Aaron Nesmith.

That's what I think of when I think of anything basketball

you drilled it into me congrats

rustywest watches all of Westbrook's games, I aim to watch all Nesmith games like you, and center everything around that, and post mainly about that on forums



wait, aren't you me?

[Nomad]

Basically, I need to have skin in the game to be interested in a collectibles market. The pandemic was a unique event that somehow got me into basketball cards. Not really interested in older issues as speculative investment, because the career arcs are already set. Was early interested in Grizz when I started watching, but couldn't afford Ja or even Bane (thanks Packman). Saw that comeback game, the original BO thread in response, and hit a couple Absolute six panel RPA /199 in a break. Signs converged. Watched a few games to make sure he really was a diamond in the rough. Hello Nesmith.

I know Tatum's personality and style because I followed Nesmith. But I no longer follow the Celtics. So any story I tell about Tatum will reference Nesmith I guess.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by AwesomeBrian

Duke
Boston
100 Turnovers in a single postseason
Cringe celebrations

Lots to overcome. Homers will love him (Rightly so now that he was on a title winning team) but the normal stigma associated with the things he does will keep the haters hating.

I actually haven't seen anyone "hate" on him.

He just had a massive opportunity to gain some popularity and he completely messed it up.

1. Didn't win either MVP award
2. Shot a heap of terrible shots trying to win the award
3. Imitated other peoples celebrations
4. Dropped a petty comment about the Miami Heat

He got over the hump (finally), on a stacked team.
Jrue looks to be their leader.
D. White looks to be their best playmaker

Tatum is going to need to really dominate if he wants to get himself anywhere near Kobe level.

Getting a bunch of Ben Simmons assists aint it

[Nomad]

Ben Simmons assists don't matter a lot with a ring. His middling attempts at coolness are just fine.

It's not like we are asking sports to be a stand-in for anger, resentment, and controversy. True, I personally find the Celtics to be clinical and kind of boring to watch, but they are a well-oiled machine.

[Nomad]

While Tatum renting out Disneyland, Jimmy Buckets busy losing his hard earned cash at the Hustler Club (revision: nitting it up).



To quote a YT pundit:

"Alan Keating always fun
Dan Bilzerian is rude af
Jimmy butler is whatever
Neymar and his boys were chill af
Ninja and Ryan Garcia were hilarious
Eubanks was chill"

"it has been a pretty long week for Ryan Garcia, that one year ban, that million dollar fine."

"Blitz rivers a five and looks like he's betting for value."

Actually props to Butler, only sober guy at the table.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

He got over the hump (finally), on a stacked team.
Jrue looks to be their leader.
D. White looks to be their best playmaker

Stacked? Come on! The KD/Steph Warriors were stacked. The mid-90s Bulls were stacked. Even the KG Celtics were stacked.

As for the Miami comment, maybe it was a shot at the team or maybe he just meant it is always easy to travel to a locale such as Miami. Maybe he meant both.

[nbahobbyaddict]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

I actually haven't seen anyone "hate" on him.

He just had a massive opportunity to gain some popularity and he completely messed it up.

1. Didn't win either MVP award
2. Shot a heap of terrible shots trying to win the award
3. Imitated other peoples celebrations
4. Dropped a petty comment about the Miami Heat

He got over the hump (finally), on a stacked team.
Jrue looks to be their leader.
D. White looks to be their best playmaker

Tatum is going to need to really dominate if he wants to get himself anywhere near Kobe level.

Getting a bunch of Ben Simmons assists aint it

All very true. Except it's already clear the part in bold will never happen. JT doesn't have the skill set, drive or killer mentality.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by mc1

Stacked? Come on! The KD/Steph Warriors were stacked. The mid-90s Bulls were stacked. Even the KG Celtics were stacked.

As for the Miami comment, maybe it was a shot at the team or maybe he just meant it is always easy to travel to a locale such as Miami. Maybe he meant both.

If you actually don't believe that Boston was stacked to win the title, than you're really clueless.

They were already contenders and then added 2 guys that have been All stars.

Zinger averaged 23 and 8 last season and is Bostons 4th best player.

That is a stacked team and I've said all season nobody is beating Boston.

Originally Posted by nbahobbyaddict

All very true. Except it's already clear the part in bold will never happen. JT doesn't have the skill set, drive or killer mentality.

Well exactly. I agree. I just don't think Tatum realises the levels to it.

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

If you actually don't believe that Boston was stacked to win the title, than you're really clueless.

They were already contenders and then added 2 guys that have been All stars.

Zinger averaged 23 and 8 last season and is Bostons 4th best player.

That is a stacked team and I've said all season nobody is beating Boston.



Well exactly. I agree. I just don't think Tatum realises the levels to it.

I haven’t agreed with drob about much in this thread, but I agree with the bolded.

[Nomad]

Tatum could have sat out and they would have beat the Pacers in 7. Mavs in 4.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

If you actually don't believe that Boston was stacked to win the title, than you're really clueless.

They were already contenders and then added 2 guys that have been All stars.

Zinger averaged 23 and 8 last season and is Bostons 4th best player.

That is a stacked team and I've said all season nobody is beating Boston.

Porzingis played 60 minutes in the Finals. He had one good game.

He wasnt the 4th best player for them.