90s PMG Pumped To Ad Nauseam On Social Media

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

I am very confident that to date there have been non-payments. Can you verify anyone that has been successfully sued in court for non payment?

I have also seen cards not paid for that didnt get relisted in the next auction. So there goes that idea that 100% of non payment auctions get auto relisted.

I was responding to your comment "Or you can simply fake the sale. Win, never pay"

Maybe on cards worth three to four figures. Since we are discussing price manipulation on a six figure card such as Red PMG, do you know any instances of six figure cards that were not paid for? I have sold more than 100 cards (both low end end and high end) through Goldin and all of them were paid for. Same with PWCC ever since they left ebay.

Originally Posted by kgoldin

“ I expect shill bidding at the highest level”
This isn’t eBay
You ever try to register for Goldin auctions and place a bid of $10,000?
$50,000
$100,000?
Good luck with that

Anyone placing a bid like that has been credit checked, provided financial statements and pretty much had a rectal exam.
Please keep off the hand comments like that to places that do not take the precautions we do,
Thank you

Originally Posted by kgoldin

Yes
We currently have several legal proceedings going against non payers. Fox Rothschild law firm out of Philly handles them all.

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by AbraCalabro

are there any stupid space / comic book backgrounds on these? what year are those, I want to see the base.

I HEAVILY collected Marvel cards in the early 90s (I just picked up 90 and 91 PSA 9 MCU Spidey holograms btw lol) and I think the whole space thing in 97 Metal basketball kinda turned me off upon release tbh. Everyone now boasts about 97 Metal Universe best set ever hoopla... but I always felt like it was Marvel Basketball / Space Jam basketball cards upon release. I already knew of Skybox before then from collecting MU series 3 4 and also 92 MM. And in basketball the mix of those 2 elements just never really appealed to me despite record prices blah blah woof-woof crap...I mean I equally think Spidey on a basketball court card would be kinda corny too...lol

I guess that's why 20 years later when I see everyone all of a sudden pumping PMGs as these Grails I find it kind of a joke because I honestly didn't (and still dont) see them as being so much greater than other 90s base parallels. I just see it all differently because like I said back in the 90s Metal Universe wasn't considered all the rage like it's made out to be now...like best set ever etc....it just sounds like recycled Kool aid sheep herd talk to me....

I actually like the 97 inserts more than the parallels tbh. 97 MU inserts are def some of my fav inserts aesthetically

Different strokes we know but just was never my thing. Contrary to some in this thread the main objective wasn't always JUST.. "Well this is wrong or right based on financial gain" there was more focus on what YOU liked....back then...

The cliche "Collect What You Like" days are long gone...it's a big money grab now...idk...its just how I see it these days...

And to now hear many in this thread say "you were wrong and right about this and that shows a one track focused mindedness ONLY on dollars"...I mean now it seems that's ALL it's about...

I guess one of the casualties of the new card Card Stock Market Card Ladder Era pivot surely don't feel like collecting based on the instinctive "value determines greatness" attitude of many of these investor-whatevers now lol....

Does anyone actually collect cards and not always get so obsessed with $ anymore? (Just a rhetoric question to invoke some thought here?

[sportsyard]

Originally Posted by Starman101

I HEAVILY collected Marvel cards in the early 90s (I just picked up 90 and 91 PSA 9 MCU Spidey holograms btw lol) and I think the whole space thing in 97 Metal basketball kinda turned me off upon release tbh. Everyone now boasts about 97 Metal Universe best set ever hoopla... but I always felt like it was Marvel Basketball / Space Jam basketball cards upon release. I already knew of Skybox before then from collecting MU series 3 4 and also 92 MM. And in basketball the mix of those 2 elements just never really appealed to me despite record prices blah blah woof-woof crap...I mean I equally think Spidey on a basketball court card would be kinda corny too...lol

I guess that's why 20 years later when I see everyone all of a sudden pumping PMGs as these Grails I find it kind of a joke because I honestly didn't (and still dont) see them as being so much greater than other 90s base parallels. I just see it all differently because like I said back in the 90s Metal Universe wasn't considered all the rage like it's made out to be now...like best set ever etc....it just sounds like recycled Kool aid sheep herd talk to me....

I actually like the 97 inserts more than the parallels tbh. 97 MU inserts are def some of my fav inserts aesthetically

Different strokes we know but just was never my thing. Contrary to some in this thread the main objective wasn't always JUST.. "Well this is wrong or right based on financial gain" there was more focus on what YOU liked....back then...

The cliche "Collect What You Like" days are long gone...it's a big money grab now...idk...its just how I see it these days...

And to now hear many in this thread say "you were wrong and right about this and that shows a one track focused mindedness ONLY on dollars"...I mean now it seems that's ALL it's about...

I guess one of the casualties of the new card Card Stock Market Card Ladder Era pivot surely don't feel like collecting based on the instinctive "value determines greatness" attitude of many of these investor-whatevers now lol....

Does anyone actually collect cards and not always get so obsessed with $ anymore? (Just a rhetoric question to invoke some thought here?

Turning cards into a "stock market" is the single worst thing that has happened. There isnt liquidity in cards, it can't be a real time market. And as we know, Card Ladder doesn't "vet" anything. These are all questionable data points run by a couple guys in a basement apartment.

Sports cards should be looked at similar to art. Value is driven through scarcity and through "collectors" that would pay more for something to add it to their collection, that's what drives price. There are more people looking for a Mantle 52 RC then sellers, price goes up. Not through hype, but through simple supply and demand.

While I do believe that long term the "market cap" of cards will appreciate, I think there are going to be massive loses driven through auction houses not having enough buyers to support supply and through more gullible people reading into Card Ladder as "real".

[rj.cataldo]

Originally Posted by Starman101

I HEAVILY collected Marvel cards in the early 90s (I just picked up 90 and 91 PSA 9 MCU Spidey holograms btw lol) and I think the whole space thing in 97 Metal basketball kinda turned me off upon release tbh. Everyone now boasts about 97 Metal Universe best set ever hoopla... but I always felt like it was Marvel Basketball / Space Jam basketball cards upon release. I already knew of Skybox before then from collecting MU series 3 4 and also 92 MM. And in basketball the mix of those 2 elements just never really appealed to me despite record prices blah blah woof-woof crap...I mean I equally think Spidey on a basketball court card would be kinda corny too...lol

I guess that's why 20 years later when I see everyone all of a sudden pumping PMGs as these Grails I find it kind of a joke because I honestly didn't (and still dont) see them as being so much greater than other 90s base parallels. I just see it all differently because like I said back in the 90s Metal Universe wasn't considered all the rage like it's made out to be now...like best set ever etc....it just sounds like recycled Kool aid sheep herd talk to me....

I actually like the 97 inserts more than the parallels tbh. 97 MU inserts are def some of my fav inserts aesthetically

Different strokes we know but just was never my thing. Contrary to some in this thread the main objective wasn't always JUST.. "Well this is wrong or right based on financial gain" there was more focus on what YOU liked....back then...

The cliche "Collect What You Like" days are long gone...it's a big money grab now...idk...its just how I see it these days...

And to now hear many in this thread say "you were wrong and right about this and that shows a one track focused mindedness ONLY on dollars"...I mean now it seems that's ALL it's about...

I guess one of the casualties of the new card Card Stock Market Card Ladder Era pivot surely don't feel like collecting based on the instinctive "value determines greatness" attitude of many of these investor-whatevers now lol....

Does anyone actually collect cards and not always get so obsessed with $ anymore? (Just a rhetoric question to invoke some thought here?

There is undoubtedly a big element of profit tied into todays market. It’s always been there, but it’s a larger scale and more in your face because of social media. But don’t kid yourself, this hobby has always been full of scammers and showman trying to get other peoples money going back to the 80s and 90s.

I still think a lot of people “collect what they like” but the stakes are much higher. It’s easy as an early adopter (people who are into their cards for fractions of todays prices) to say don’t worry about the money, but if you are a new entrant the entry price for many of these cards is astronomical.

Even if you are not in it for the money, it’s human nature to not want to see your money evaporate. If you buy a card for $500 and it’s worth $250, oh well - if you buy it for $50k and it’s worth $25k that might be harder to swallow. I’ve never looked at cards like an investment - that is I’m never using funds that I would otherwise park in stocks or a 401k for cards. That said, I’ve always hoped that it would at least be some storage of value - I can get something out of it if I ever lose the joy or am forced to sell for other reasons. I’m not in it for profit, but I certainly wouldn’t feel good if my collection was worthless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sportsyard]

Originally Posted by rj.cataldo

There is undoubtedly a big element of profit tied into todays market. It’s always been there, but it’s a larger scale and more in your face because of social media. But don’t kid yourself, this hobby has always been full of scammers and showman trying to get other peoples money going back to the 80s and 90s.

I still think a lot of people “collect what they like” but the stakes are much higher. It’s easy as an early adopter (people who are into their cards for fractions of todays prices) to say don’t worry about the money, but if you are a new entrant the entry price for many of these cards is astronomical.

Even if you are not in it for the money, it’s human nature to not want to see your money evaporate. If you buy a card for $500 and it’s worth $250, oh well - if you buy it for $50k and it’s worth $25k that might be harder to swallow. I’ve never looked at cards like an investment - that is I’m never using funds that I would otherwise park in stocks or a 401k for cards. That said, I’ve always hoped that it would at least be some storage of value - I can get something out of it if I ever lose the joy or am forced to sell for other reasons. I’m not in it for profit, but I certainly wouldn’t feel good if my collection was worthless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thats the problem, in the last 2 years 90% of the entrants believed its easy to make money and the market behaves like the stock market with liquidity. Its not. Collecting or putting $'s into cards to store value is vastly different that then pumping nature of services like Card Ladder. Notice Card Ladder only posts about cards setting new records when 95% of cards are down. Its nonsense and irresponsible.

Sports cards are not the stock market. The more we all can make new entrants aware of this the better.

[KhalDrogo]

Sportsyard was singing a much different tune a year ago when he was trying to pump his MJ Nike to $100k. What a difference a year makes.

[sportsyard]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Sportsyard was singing a much different tune a year ago when he was trying to pump his MJ Nike to $100k. What a difference a year makes.

Not really, I believed in the card and sold several at a nice profit. I believe in them still and Im actively buying them again at the new prices. Its a beautiful card that I like the look of, like art. it personally means something to me. I also think its a great price right now as I did back then. I always felt based on the value of the 1986, it should track at a % to that card. Right now, historical that's disjointed, so I see value and it it reverts to a mean, I may sell what I've bought and consider putting money into something else I like.

I have come to terms with "collecting" and understand that long term value comes from supply / demand driven by collectors. Along the way, I enjoy what I've bought.

Im buying Gretzky and Tiger stuff right now for personal reasons.

Also, I can candidly say that probably every "chase" card I bought in the pandemic thinking cards were like a stock market I ended up losing on. I deserved that and Im ok with that. At least I can admit that.

[sportsyard]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Sportsyard was singing a much different tune a year ago when he was trying to pump his MJ Nike to $100k. What a difference a year makes.

FWIW, You actually dont bring anything positive to the community. You really need a hobby.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by sportsyard

FWIW, You actually dont bring anything positive to the community. You really need a hobby.

Thank you Mr. Can’t Afford That $15k Card I won.

[sportsyard]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Thank you Mr. Can’t Afford That $15k Card I won.

That's just a childish response that a bully would make. You can't take getting called out, which is also sad. I think you lead the forum in posts, yet I'd be willing to bet more then half of the readers would love to see you leave, but you won't, because this is all you have, day after day of putting people down on an online forum.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by sportsyard

That's just a childish response that a bully would make. You can't take getting called out, which is also sad. I think you lead the forum in posts, yet I'd be willing to bet more then half of the readers would love to see you leave, but you won't, because this is all you have, day after day of putting people down on an online forum.

Don’t throw stones, something, something.

Since you refuse to give a reason for why you didn’t pay, my guess is you didn’t realize you couldn’t pay with a credit card on invoices over $10k. Am I right?!

[sportsyard]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Thank you Mr. Can’t Afford That $15k Card I won.

also, you and I should keep any personal beef out of threads. It's not fair to everyone else on here to read this nonsense. In the future, if you want to talk to me, send me a PM and vice versa. I dont think you are going to change from bullying people on a card forum, its just you're nature, but I dont have to point it out every day

[sportsyard]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Don’t throw stones, something, something.

Since you refuse to give a reason for why you didn’t pay, my guess is you didn’t realize you couldn’t pay with a credit card on invoices over $10k. Am I right?!

I didnt pay because it was simply a data set to confirm if they were reporting unpaid items and removing them, which I can confirm that PWCC is doing...and to confirm that Card Ladder wasn't getting a feed from PWCC, which they arent. I even notified PWCC of everything as they didnt have an answer if Card Ladder was removing unpaids from their data skim. This was explained a multiple times. And confirmed my entire thesis. PWCC to their credit has actually bumped up their development pipeline of unpaid information.

I pay via wire for your information.

And its funny, while I created a dataset to confirm my own suspicions about all this deception at Card Ladder and how they are operating to get a better understanding before making accusations, I've since had multiple cards I've sold go unpaid from PWCC that Card Ladder is still reporting as vetted transactions with 5/5 confidence. 100% deception .

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by rj.cataldo

There is undoubtedly a big element of profit tied into todays market. It’s always been there, but it’s a larger scale and more in your face because of social media. But don’t kid yourself, this hobby has always been full of scammers and showman trying to get other peoples money going back to the 80s and 90s.

I still think a lot of people “collect what they like” but the stakes are much higher. It’s easy as an early adopter (people who are into their cards for fractions of todays prices) to say don’t worry about the money, but if you are a new entrant the entry price for many of these cards is astronomical.

Even if you are not in it for the money, it’s human nature to not want to see your money evaporate. If you buy a card for $500 and it’s worth $250, oh well - if you buy it for $50k and it’s worth $25k that might be harder to swallow. I’ve never looked at cards like an investment - that is I’m never using funds that I would otherwise park in stocks or a 401k for cards. That said, I’ve always hoped that it would at least be some storage of value - I can get something out of it if I ever lose the joy or am forced to sell for other reasons. I’m not in it for profit, but I certainly wouldn’t feel good if my collection was worthless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Spot on post.

If you're entering the hobby now looking to buy anything of value, you're paying a lot more than prior to the pandemic bubble. You're either wealthy with money to burn or you're an investor/speculator. If you're an investor/speculator, you're likely buying a depreciating asset in the short term. You're looking to flip years down the road.

People with disposable cash will be buying the dip. But the floor hasn't been reached yet -- a recession would force an even larger market correction.

If you bought a card for $50k and it lost half its market value in the time period since, you should be seriously questioning your spending behavior.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by sportsyard

I didnt pay because it was simply a data set to confirm if they were reporting unpaid items and removing them, which I can confirm that PWCC is doing...and to confirm that Card Ladder wasn't getting a feed from PWCC, which they arent. I even notified PWCC of everything as they didnt have an answer if Card Ladder was removing unpaids from their data skim. This was explained a multiple times. And confirmed my entire thesis. PWCC to their credit has actually bumped up their development pipeline of unpaid information.

I pay via wire for your information.

And its funny, while I created a dataset to confirm my own suspicions about all this deception at Card Ladder and how they are operating to get a better understanding before making accusations, I've since had multiple cards I've sold go unpaid from PWCC that Card Ladder is still reporting as vetted transactions.

So instead of bidding on a $50 card of no relevance, you bid on a $15k card with a lot of eyes on it. And PWCC allowed you to do so. Man, if I were the seller of that card, I would be livid that PWCC intentionally allowed my item to get shilled.

I’ll go ahead and email PWCC now to confirm, since this is an egregious action on their part.

[sportsyard]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

So instead of bidding on a $50 card of no relevance, you bid on a $15k card with a lot of eyes on it. And PWCC allowed you to do so. Man, if I were the seller of that card, I would be livid that PWCC intentionally allowed my item to get shilled.

I’ll go ahead and email PWCC now to confirm, since this is an egregious action on their part.

What is wrong with you. There is no intent on PWCC's behalf, they don't have control over if an item gets paid for, nor do they control what buyers do. I had $15k worth of items that PWCC sold on my behalf last month that went unpaid for. They are now getting relisted per their policy. They can't control anything after the fact. Their job is to simply report data, which they do. Its confirmed, they remove unpaid items immediately. Card Ladder is in the wrong, they skim data and don't protect consumers. I can 110% verify that PWCC is above board in procedure. They also suspend buyers for non payment, again, 110% above board.

PWCC also will not report information to some internet troll like you. That would violate consumer data and protection laws.

You'd be best at this point to just admit that your buddy Chris is a deceiving people.

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

I was responding to your comment "Or you can simply fake the sale. Win, never pay"

Maybe on cards worth three to four figures. Since we are discussing price manipulation on a six figure card such as Red PMG, do you know any instances of six figure cards that were not paid for? I have sold more than 100 cards (both low end end and high end) through Goldin and all of them were paid for. Same with PWCC ever since they left ebay.

So the answer is No. You don't know or have heard of anyone that was taken to court and successfully had to pay up the auction house premium for a non payment on a high end card.

Just like any other situation in court for re negging on a deal, if the court finds that another reasonable attempt at re selling the product at auction can achieve a sale, then the initial non payment is disqualified. If the 2nd sale nets a smaller commission, it may be argued that the difference in $$$ may have to be paid.

The threat of being sued is not the same as actually winning the suit itself. Im still on the side that not all sales and bids are 100% authentic and true. For that reason I believe manipulation happens.

[Stifle]

PMG’s were extremely tough parallels to pull because the pull ratio on a pack was lousy. The price of a box was fair but at the time, PMG’s were looked upon as nice pulls but the Pro Line Auto’s from a few years earlier were still ranked above a PMG as far as hobby hits. A PMG top rookie vs a Auto pull of Walter Payton ? It wasn’t even close in the 90’s.

[sportsyard]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

So the answer is No. You don't know or have heard of anyone that was taken to court and successfully had to pay up the auction house premium for a non payment on a high end card.

Just like any other situation in court for re negging on a deal, if the court finds that another reasonable attempt at re selling the product at auction can achieve a sale, then the initial non payment is disqualified. If the 2nd sale nets a smaller commission, it may be argued that the difference in $$$ may have to be paid.

The threat of being sued is not the same as actually winning the suit itself. Im still on the side that not all sales and bids are 100% authentic and true. For that reason I believe manipulation happens.

Exactly. Its all non sense and full of manipulation.

Auction house sells a card for $20,000 - net's $2000 commission

Card goes unpaid for and resells for $17,000. Auction house net's $1700 commission.

$300 difference to sue for. Not happening.

[sportsyard]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

So instead of bidding on a $50 card of no relevance, you bid on a $15k card with a lot of eyes on it. And PWCC allowed you to do so. Man, if I were the seller of that card, I would be livid that PWCC intentionally allowed my item to get shilled.

I’ll go ahead and email PWCC now to confirm, since this is an egregious action on their part.

The reason why a premier auction item was necessary was to try and give Card Ladder the benefit of the doubt that despite the market universe being large, they could take a 200-300 point data set and properly "vet" the items. They couldn't.

They can't even get a small monthly auction's data to be verified, its all just bogus and deception.

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

So the answer is No. You don't know or have heard of anyone that was taken to court and successfully had to pay up the auction house premium for a non payment on a high end card.

Just like any other situation in court for re negging on a deal, if the court finds that another reasonable attempt at re selling the product at auction can achieve a sale, then the initial non payment is disqualified. If the 2nd sale nets a smaller commission, it may be argued that the difference in $$$ may have to be paid.

The threat of being sued is not the same as actually winning the suit itself. Im still on the side that not all sales and bids are 100% authentic and true. For that reason I believe manipulation happens.

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

Or you can simply fake the sale. Win, never pay. Then get sources like CL to post the same, mark them with 5/5 confidence and show an arrow pointing to the moon.

You get the same affect but nothing changes hands. All you need is partners making the same play!! Then guys like you can sit here and say..... "Yea you should have known better and done your research blah blah blah... I knew to take the sale price with skepticism even though I talk out of both sides of my mouth and support the guys that advertise unvetted sales and claim them to be facts"

I really dont care either way. You are free to spend your money whatever you like just as you are free to be naive while doing it.

Again, my response was to your comment "Or you can simply fake the sale. Win, never pay". It's not that simple and easy as you are trying to portray on a six figure card unless you think there are people dumb enough to bid on a six figure card with the sole intent to shill and not pay because they consider going to court as a fun experience and the court cannot force them to pay. Anyways, my point is 1. PMG's have always been a desirable card despite what the OP thinks 2. Price manipulation is common in the world of collectibles. So let's not act as if the PMG's went up because of manipulation while others went up because of genuine demand. Whatever we discussed here is applicable to all high end cards! One can change the thread title to sports cards being pumped ad nauseam or Jordan cards being pumped ad nauseam and it will still be true.

Originally Posted by kgoldin

“ I expect shill bidding at the highest level”
This isn’t eBay
You ever try to register for Goldin auctions and place a bid of $10,000?
$50,000
$100,000?
Good luck with that

Anyone placing a bid like that has been credit checked, provided financial statements and pretty much had a rectal exam.
Please keep off the hand comments like that to places that do not take the precautions we do,
Thank you

Originally Posted by kgoldin

Yes
We currently have several legal proceedings going against non payers. Fox Rothschild law firm out of Philly handles them all.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Stifle

PMG’s were extremely tough parallels to pull because the pull ratio on a pack was lousy. The price of a box was fair but at the time, PMG’s were looked upon as nice pulls but the Pro Line Auto’s from a few years earlier were still ranked above a PMG as far as hobby hits. A PMG top rookie vs a Auto pull of Walter Payton ? It wasn’t even close in the 90’s.

Football PMGs have not been pumped in the same way.

Ive never owned any basketball PMGs, contrary to the narrative of folks here accusing me of such. I had a few football ones and sold them all in the last couple years. They just dont have the same demand or passionate collectors. I forgot to add, the PR was also 50% higher for FB!

[sportsyard]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

Again, my response was to your comment "Or you can simply fake the sale. Win, never pay". It's not that simple and easy as you are trying to portray on a six figure card. Anyways, my point is 1. PMG's have always been a desirable card despite what the OP thinks 2. Price manipulation is common in the world of collectibles. So let's not act as if the PMG's went up because of manipulation while others went up because of organic demand. Whatever we discussed here is applicable to all high end cards!
One can change the thread title to sports cards being pumped ad nauseam or Jordan cards being pumped ad nauseam and it will still be true.

You are right about the title.

The sad thing is that services like Card Ladder are still taking non payments and using them as data points. Regardless of whether a Goldin is actually going to court with clients, these questionable data points are being sold to consumers as "vetted". This is the true deception that is happening, you cannot turn sports cards into the stock market, especially without partnerships in place for real data feeds, not data skims.

Bad data points create opportunities for manipulation to happen.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by sportsyard

you cannot turn sports cards into the stock market, especially without partnerships in place for real data feeds, not data skims.

Market opportunity.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Sportsyard was singing a much different tune a year ago when he was trying to pump his MJ Nike to $100k. What a difference a year makes.

some posters here (like Khal) must have some photographic memories, I can barely remember what more than one or two members here were posting last week