If you believe Ohtani is the GOAT, can you actually prove it? - Page 5

fabiani12333 · 11-20-2025, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoSoxFan1999

It's hilarious in a thread where you ask people to provide PROOF Ohtani is the GOAT, you just pull out of your a$$ that Ohtani wouldn't have even finished 2nd in MVP voting the last 2 years in the AL. Your "proof" of that being "deeerp, they had historic seasons!". Uh genius, Ohtani had a historic season last year too (you know, that 50/50 thing), and you could argue he had another one this season as he did break the Dodgers franchise single-season HR record set by....himself last year.

The way you regularly contradict yourself and move the goalposts constantly is why no one takes your "honest debate" seriously and most people just see you as trolling. Like seriously, did Ohtani kick your dog or call your momma ugly? Very bizarre this anti-Ohtani bender you've decided to go on.

My guess is that you sold off a ton of Ohtani after he had his TJS and you've regretted that decision ever since and try to bring him down to rationalize your decision. Only thing that really makes sense. Just admit that you're bitter you jumped off the Ohtani boat way too early! Denial is the first stage of coping which you seem to be stuck in. Once you get to the acceptance phase, you'll be alright.

If you have something to prove, prove it. Otherwise, stop attacking me. Making baseless claims or creating theories based on false premises doesn't advance the stated purpose of the thread.

marl1220 · 11-20-2025, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanrs1

That and I assume he does not collect Ohtani. Right now there is nothing more fun than collecting Ohtani.

Ohtani is the hobby GOAT!!!

Yes! The GOAT in MLB History? No.

And neither one of those points can be proved. LOL!!!

fabiani12333 · 11-20-2025, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rage

He could put up a 12+ WAR season with a full season of pitching and hitting.
2022 he got 6.2 bWAR pitching in 166 IP, his most yet.
Last 3 years with the just the hitting he's averaged 7.3 bWAR a season.
Peak Shohei would be a 13-15 bWAR season. It's just a matter of health and timing.
Time will tell if he's reached his limits or if he goes further.
The question isn't can he, it's will he?

Yes -- I'm wondering if a 12 WAR season is possible for him. He can do it if he's both a great hitter and great starting pitcher in the same season. I question whether or not he can do both at the same time for a full season, but he's certainly shown he can do one or the other.

atk825 · 11-20-2025, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Well said. The reason for Pujols' sudden drop-off in his early 30s might have to do with his actual age being 3 years older than what he claims: https://www.halosheaven.com/2018/11/...-age-conundrum

If you adjust his age-32 season to make it his age-35 season, it makes a lot more sense -- still a good player, but on the decline.

This is ridiculous but then also makes he posted a 151 OPS+ all the more insane since he supposedly was in his age 45 season (he wasn't)

fabiani12333 · 11-20-2025, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atk825

This is ridiculous but then also makes he posted a 151 OPS+ all the more insane since he supposedly was in his age 45 season (he wasn't)

Whether he was 42 or 45 years old, what is absolutely bonkers about his last season -- and what no one seemed to want to talk about -- is he was the best hitter in the league in second half of the season and putting peak numbers!!!!!:

Pujols' 2nd half of 2022: .323/.388/.715, 18 HR, 178 PA

He hit 18 home runs in only 158 AB in the second half of 2022 -- that is peak Barry Bonds level of production.

This after he sucked for half a decade with the Angels.

Someone really needs to explain this to me -- help me understand.

sandyfrank · 11-20-2025, 08:18 PM

This is my opinion only but if you can't just look at the player and see the greatness, you should probably just stick to crunching numbers and stats. I've known for a long time Ohtani is the GOAT.

fabiani12333 · 11-20-2025, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandyfrank

This is my opinion only but if you can't just look at the player and see the greatness, you should probably just stick to crunching numbers and stats. I've known for a long time Ohtani is the GOAT.

So you saw Mays or Mantle play? If not, all you have to go on is the numbers, recordings and reporting.

The numbers are supposed to be objective and weed out personal bias. But I understand GOAT can be defined in different ways, based in part on personal preferences. Your idea of GOAT may not be someone else's idea GOAT. But I ask that you prove that your choice of GOAT satisfies your personal definition of GOAT -- don't just proclaim that a player is the GOAT without supporting evidence and reasoning.

Onions · 11-20-2025, 11:12 PM

I'm confident that he is the GOOT (Greatest of Our Time) on the way to possibly the GOAT. Dumb to worry about if he is the best ever after half his career. Let's do this in 8-9 years.

blackbears86 · 11-21-2025, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onions

I'm confident that he is the GOOT (Greatest of Our Time) on the way to possibly the GOAT. Dumb to worry about if he is the best ever after half his career. Let's do this in 8-9 years.

Agree.

I think Fabs started this thread just to get another argument going.

BTW: Hope all is well Onions, and happy early Thanksgiving!

boxbuster7 · 11-21-2025, 05:40 PM

If I had a $1 for everytime this guy started an unnecessary thread I'd have at least $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Lonewolf · 11-22-2025, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onions

I'm confident that he is the GOOT (Greatest of Our Time) on the way to possibly the GOAT. Dumb to worry about if he is the best ever after half his career. Let's do this in 8-9 years.

Well said

/end thread

49ersSF · 11-22-2025, 10:58 PM

Is his career the greatest of all time? No, not yet, at least.

Is he the greatest of all time in terms of his ability as a player? I'd say yes.

PuddleMonkey · 11-22-2025, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Witt Jr would have finished ahead of Ohtani in the MVP vote in 2024 -- I bet my life on it.

Probably not necessary. You're on a baseball card forum after all.

awz50 · 11-23-2025, 09:00 AM

What is it about Ohtani that triggers people?

fabiani12333 · 11-23-2025, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awz50

What is it about Ohtani that triggers people?

C'mon -- I think you know the answer: it's his card values.

If people would just stop calling him the GOAT to pump up his card values, there would be no controversy or reason to argue -- he is an all-time great regardless. Let his career play out before making proclamations about his all-time ranking.

Twalk1975 · 11-23-2025, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

C'mon -- I think you know the answer: it's his card values.

If people would just stop calling him the GOAT to pump up his card values, there would be no controversy or reason to argue -- he is an all-time great regardless. Let his career play out before making proclamations about his all-time ranking.

Do you think this argument is limited to sports card forums?

fabiani12333 · 11-23-2025, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twalk1975

Do you think this argument is limited to sports card forums?

But I'm referring to the discussions about him on this site, which focuses on trading cards. I get that fans and media people are also discussing his place on the all-time ranking.

quackhead · 11-23-2025, 01:33 PM

This thread will be moot, once Tatis Jr becomes the GOOT / GOAT

BigL7370 · 11-23-2025, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awz50

What is it about Ohtani that triggers people?

He’s not an American so he is subject to scrutiny by American fans - Ohtani is talked about in such respect, where he’s now past a Mike Trout or Bryce Harper, the guys that were supposed to carry the sport the last 5,10,15 years.

ThoseBackPages · 11-23-2025, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awz50

What is it about Ohtani that triggers people?

He is Asian

NYRE2PECT · 11-23-2025, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

He is Asian

This is true.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PuddleMonkey · 11-23-2025, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awz50

What is it about Ohtani that triggers people?

I love the man for simply keeping a Yankee from being the hobby darling.

fulltritty · 11-23-2025, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuddleMonkey

I love the man for simply keeping a Yankee from being the hobby darling.

Shouldn't you be on Facebook still crying over Cal not winning MVP?

hammertime · 11-23-2025, 07:33 PM

Honestly I couldn't care less. If he's the 2nd best of all time, or 3rd, or whatever, that's still pretty awesome. I'll just be watching and enjoying his career for as long as it lasts.

PuddleMonkey · 11-23-2025, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fulltritty

Shouldn't you be on Facebook still crying over Cal not winning MVP?

Not sure what you're talking about, I've said the opposite the entire time. Hopefully someone gets you Hooked on Phonics for Christmas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuddleMonkey

Seattle all the way but Judge deserves MVP. I'm not gonna be a homer and deny the obvious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuddleMonkey

Looking at the odds I kinda wish I had a gambling account set up because Judge is free money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuddleMonkey

I'll even be one of the people complaining if Judge gets robbed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuddleMonkey

Judge earned it, give it to him.

11-21-2025, 05:40 PM	#110
boxbuster7 Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 13,389 boxbuster777	If I had a $1 for everytime this guy started an unnecessary thread I'd have at least $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 __________________ Psa 9 > psa 10

11-22-2025, 10:58 PM	#112
49ersSF Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: San Francisco Posts: 4,325	Is his career the greatest of all time? No, not yet, at least. Is he the greatest of all time in terms of his ability as a player? I'd say yes. __________________ They see what they have been told to see.

11-23-2025, 09:00 AM	#114
awz50 Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: New Hampshire>>>Arizona>>>>Florida Posts: 33,495 awz50	What is it about Ohtani that triggers people? __________________ Collecting Baseball Hof Autographs 249/352 Blowouts Official Red Sox face of the franchise Eduardo Rodriguez Super Collector

11-23-2025, 07:33 PM	#124
hammertime Member Join Date: May 2020 Location: OH->MI->MD->VA Posts: 7,096	Honestly I couldn't care less. If he's the 2nd best of all time, or 3rd, or whatever, that's still pretty awesome. I'll just be watching and enjoying his career for as long as it lasts. __________________ Collecting foci: E98 master set, HOF rookie autos, Reds HOF autos, All-time top southpaws (Waddell, Plank, Grove, Hubbell, Spahn, Ford, Koufax, Carlton, Glavine, Johnson, Kershaw), Ohtani

11-20-2025, 08:18 PM	#106
sandyfrank Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,076	This is my opinion only but if you can't just look at the player and see the greatness, you should probably just stick to crunching numbers and stats. I've known for a long time Ohtani is the GOAT.

11-20-2025, 11:12 PM	#108
Onions Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 2,231 onion99	I'm confident that he is the GOOT (Greatest of Our Time) on the way to possibly the GOAT. Dumb to worry about if he is the best ever after half his career. Let's do this in 8-9 years.

11-23-2025, 01:33 PM	#118
quackhead Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: CA Posts: 4,950	This thread will be moot, once Tatis Jr becomes the GOOT / GOAT