Patrick Mahomes Prices

[Tea10]

Originally Posted by KardsC1

If Hurts wins 3 SBs the same fashion as he did his first, he would mirror Brady. The reason mahomes was being touted a possible goat thru a few seasons is because his accolades and how he plays the Qb position … no one was calling Brady goat til he got 5 rings (passing Montana)..reason? It’s because his play …mahomes was a rocket ship from the jump and hasn’t slowed down..his bad year is a SB loss..

But back to my point…Brady is Not on many lists of “fastest to”…deduce that to what you want …those are facts

Lmao come on bro.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by Fenway55

No, he kinda really doesn't. He only has a lot of records if you qualify them.... IOW, he has things like "most before age 30"... he doesn't have "most".

Regular Season records:

-Most yards in a season
-Most passing yards per game (career)
-Most total yards per game (career)
-Most touchdowns per game (career)
-Most consecutive games with 300+ yards passing (tied)
-Most seasons with 4500 yards + 35 TDs

Playoffs
-Single season touchdown record
-Single season 4th quarter comebacks (tied with Brady!)
-Youngest Super Bowl MVP QB

Could be more. But that's a pretty decent list to accomplish in his 20s, when the career compiling lists are impossible to touch

[Tea10]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Because Brady didn't have the greatest start to a career ever (if your defining who was the greatest in their 20s).... but he had the greatest 30s and 40s in a career and that's what made him special.

Mahomes did in fact have the greatest 20s for any QB, but to expect anyone to do what Brady did in their 30s and 40s is a lot to ask.

And I'm fine with both of those things being true.

Mahomes wouldn't have done that in the 2000s arguably.

It's apples to oranges. Mahomes did have the best start to his career, that's probably true. But it's hard to say Brady isn't right there or arguably better given the 3 SBs into the best offense the NFL has ever seen in 2007.

Mahomes won accolades and put up numbers, but he was groomed and installed into an Andy Reid offense and good-great roster.

Brady was thrust into action because of an injury to a #1 overall pick and played his way into a spot where you had to continue to start him. It's just not comparable at all. People use the b.s. "Game manager" excuse but it's simply a fallacy. Again, I didn't come here to argue Brady v.s. Mahomes but:

Tom Brady:

2001 = 6th in rating (above Manning, McNabb), 11th Air yards/Attempt, 22nd in total yards in only 13-14 games, 14th Passing TDs in 13-14 games. Pro Bowl when it actually mattered.

2002 = 9th in rating, 6th in yards, 1st in passing TDs

2003 = 10th rating, 6th yards, 10th passing TDs

2004 = 9th rating, 10th yards, 6th passing TDs

2005 = 6th rating, 1st passing yards, 3rd passing TDs

3 SB rings, played better in playoffs, game winning drives, etc. We all know what happened as it went on, 2007 he lead the best offense ever arguably.

Point being, I think it's fair to say Mahomes had the best start. But that's arguable as well. It isn't that clear cut. Starting off in a very pass-friendly league v.s. 2001, starting off as a 10th overall pick being groomed to start v.s. not getting 1st team reps and fighting to make a roster, having Andy Reid v.s. learning Weis' Erhardt-Perkins complicated system, etc.

So I'm not responding only to you here, but the idea that Brady was a game manager or carried to the equivalent 3 SBs in a similar time span is just a joke. Absolute b.s. He was top 5-10 in every passing category in his first 4 seasons coming off being a 4th string QB 6th round pick. It's just apples to oranges. And the result is very similar, Mahomes has won more MVPs, more flashy, better counting stats in a league where it's obviously easier to put those numbers up. I'd probably agree Mahomes did more and started better ultimately, but it's way closer than what is being stated.

It's like comparing Montana numbers to Brady numbers from 2005-2010+ obviously a different league. The rules fundamentally changed around ~2005-2007 for how DBs could play WRs aka not grab and maul them. And it changed there on to benefit offenses until present day. I know we debated that too, but that is objectively true.

[Tea10]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Regular Season records:

-Most yards in a season
-Most passing yards per game (career)
-Most total yards per game (career)
-Most touchdowns per game (career)
-Most consecutive games with 300+ yards passing (tied)
-Most seasons with 4500 yards + 35 TDs

Playoffs
-Single season touchdown record
-Single season 4th quarter comebacks (tied with Brady!)
-Youngest Super Bowl MVP QB

Could be more. But that's a pretty decent list to accomplish in his 20s, when the career compiling lists are impossible to touch

It is impressive. But it started in the most pass-offensive friendly rule set and era of NFL history and the 17 game season was implemented in 2021.

It doesn't take it away but it adds context. Like I said in my first sentence above, it probably doesn't happen if his career started in 2000 or 2001. But maybe. Who knows. And it is what it is.

Mahomes is already a HOFer and was 8 years into his career or less. We'll see how everything plays out. Absolute phenomenal talent, but also right place, right time. And you can say the same about Brady or any QB. If they were in Cleveland none of them would likely be who they are.

[Onepocketj]

Pretty sure there is a different thread if people just want to compare Brady and Mahomes non-stop.

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Regular Season records:

-Most yards in a season

People... I am talking all time records here. I am not going to go through every single "Most passing yards on a full moon west of the Mississippi his first 3 years"

Maybe Mahomes gets there. But he ain't there yet. And it is fundamentally unfair to compare Mahomes in his 20's (when it is 15 yards to look at a QB cross eyes) to Brady in his 20's (when it was open season on all QBs).

[Siberian13]

Originally Posted by Fenway55

People... I am talking all time records here. I am not going to go through every single "Most passing yards on a full moon west of the Mississippi his first 3 years"

Maybe Mahomes gets there. But he ain't there yet. And it is fundamentally unfair to compare Mahomes in his 20's (when it is 15 yards to look at a QB cross eyes) to Brady in his 20's (when it was open season on all QBs).

He means total yards not passing but I see you changed your post.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by Onepocketj

Pretty sure there is a different thread if people just want to compare Brady and Mahomes non-stop.

Yeah they should go there.

Annoying to have the "have your cake and eat it to" arguments where people want to give a guy credit for playing in the early 2000s, when passing output was similar to what is is now, but totally ignore that the most prolific passing era in nfl history was 2012-2016.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by Fenway55

People... I am talking all time records here. I am not going to go through every single "Most passing yards on a full moon west of the Mississippi his first 3 years"

Maybe Mahomes gets there. But he ain't there yet. And it is fundamentally unfair to compare Mahomes in his 20's (when it is 15 yards to look at a QB cross eyes) to Brady in his 20's (when it was open season on all QBs).

Keep moving the fence back.

I gave you a list or records without qualifiers.

Now you expect a guy 8 years in the league to measure up career numbers with guys that played 20.

Just a weak move to make.

Signed,

Brady fan since 2002 who thinks he's the GOAT.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Yeah they should go there.

Annoying to have the "have your cake and eat it to" arguments where people want to give a guy credit for playing in the early 2000s, when passing output was similar to what is is now, but totally ignore that the most prolific passing era in nfl history was 2012-2016.

No. Just no. Total weaksauce.

To call 2012-2016 "the most prolific passing era in NFL history" ignores the fact that prolific passing continued all the way to 2020. 2 of the highest 4 years in history (in terms of total average yardage) were 2018 and 2020 (and 2019 was #7).

So 2012-2020 was the most prolific passing era in NFL history.

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Keep moving the fence back.

I gave you a list or records without qualifiers.

Now you expect a guy 8 years in the league to measure up career numbers with guys that played 20.

No I don't expect him to. That's why calling Mahomes the GOAT at this stage - which some people do - is pure idiocy.

I have repeatedly stated that Patrick Mahomes had the best 5 year start to an NFL career. But get back to me in 10 years from now if you want to discuss GOAT status.

[KardsC1]

We all have valid points … but we can’t deny Mahomes had the best 20s ever …we can’t count it against mahomes because of what era he played in.. last I checked Allen/Lamar also played in the same era ..where are they at??…

no one knows how it’s going to play out for mahomes…Brady steadily improved til his mid 40s (very impressive).

If mahomes fizzes out, a lot of folks will cheer….if he gets to 8 SBs Ws, the same folks will blame the era ..

[kcroyalsfan8515]

Brady fans.... and to a point fans in general are so interesting.. They are both all time greats. Brady is rightfully considered the GOAT and Mahomes is actually ahead of that pace. That's it..We will see how is career lands... Ultimately if I watched my QB win as much as Brady I'd enjoy watching another great. I appreciate Brady's greatness more now watching Mahomes.. Makes me appreciate what I'm getting to watch. Brady will be tough to catch for sure... But Mahomes is something to watch.. Shouldn't take anything away from the greatness of Brady.

[Tea10]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Yeah they should go there.

Annoying to have the "have your cake and eat it to" arguments where people want to give a guy credit for playing in the early 2000s, when passing output was similar to what is is now, but totally ignore that the most prolific passing era in nfl history was 2012-2016.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

First off, I didn't start any Brady vs Mahomes debate.

Secondly, that is just straight up not true. The 2000s offensive league is not comparable to today's game, nor was it even close to ~2015-2020, or 2007-present.

https://www.pro-football-reference.c...FL/passing.htm

This was league wide passing yards in the 5 years of Tom Brady's career (2001-2005): 205.8, 212.3, 200.4, 210.5, 203.5

This was league average for Mahomes' first 5 years (2018-2022) - 237.8, 235.0, 240.2, 228.3, 218.5

It's intellectually disingenuous to try to pretend that passing/offense in the early 2000s was "similar" to what it is now. Yeah the best QBs ever existed overlapping in the 2010s, and there's been a drop off now in talent clearly. This isn't even factoring in the significant uptick in TD passes and significant downtick in interceptions over the past 25 years

The rules literally changed to favor passing and offense multiple times since the early 2000s. How can you possibly claim it's similar now? They could clothesline WRs in 2001. They were spearing helmet to helmet to defenseless receivers. They would smash QBs. I did not once comment on Mahomes not playing in the early 2000s in terms of hits, but he would have gotten hurt by now. He prances out of bounds, they would have killed him if he was playing in the early 2000s, but they can't even hit him today and during his entire career frankly.

I'm good on arguing obviously some are biased, it's not an honest discussion.

[kcroyalsfan8515]

Originally Posted by Tea10

First off, I didn't start any Brady vs Mahomes debate.

Secondly, that is just straight up not true. The 2000s offensive league is not comparable to today's game, nor was it even close to ~2015-2020, or 2007-present.

https://www.pro-football-reference.c...FL/passing.htm

This was league wide passing yards in the 5 years of Tom Brady's career (2001-2005): 205.8, 212.3, 200.4, 210.5, 203.5

This was league average for Mahomes' first 5 years (2018-2022) - 237.8, 235.0, 240.2, 228.3, 218.5

It's intellectually disingenuous to try to pretend that passing/offense in the early 2000s was "similar" to what it is now. Yeah the best QBs ever existed overlapping in the 2010s, and there's been a drop off now in talent clearly. This isn't even factoring in the significant uptick in TD passes and significant downtick in interceptions over the past 25 years

The rules literally changed to favor passing and offense multiple times since the early 2000s. How can you possibly claim it's similar now? They could clothesline WRs in 2001. They were spearing helmet to helmet to defenseless receivers. They would smash QBs. I did not once comment on Mahomes not playing in the early 2000s in terms of hits, but he would have gotten hurt by now. He prances out of bounds, they would have killed him if he was playing in the early 2000s, but they can't even hit him today and during his entire career frankly.

I'm good on arguing obviously some are biased, it's not an honest discussion.

Regardless of numbers they did give out MVPs in those years.... Thru 1st 8 years I believe Mahomes has 2...Brady had 1

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by kcroyalsfan8515

Regardless of numbers they did give out MVPs in those years.... Thru 1st 8 years I believe Mahomes has 2...Brady had 1

No one gives a crap about (season) MVPs. If they did the discussion would be Manning versus Rodgers, and when people argue about the GOAT, no one breaks it down to Manning versus Rodgers.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by kcroyalsfan8515

Brady fans.... and to a point fans in general are so interesting.. They are both all time greats. Brady is rightfully considered the GOAT and Mahomes is actually ahead of that pace. That's it..We will see how is career lands... Ultimately if I watched my QB win as much as Brady I'd enjoy watching another great. I appreciate Brady's greatness more now watching Mahomes.. Makes me appreciate what I'm getting to watch. Brady will be tough to catch for sure... But Mahomes is something to watch.. Shouldn't take anything away from the greatness of Brady.

Hey, even if certain Brady stans are insecure about it, at least Brady and Mahomes themselves seem to have it figured out:

[kcroyalsfan8515]

Deleted

[kcroyalsfan8515]

Originally Posted by Fenway55

No one gives a crap about (season) MVPs. If they did the discussion would be Manning versus Rodgers, and when people argue about the GOAT, no one breaks it down to Manning versus Rodgers.

Lol...im sure if Brady had more u would use that argument.... I believe Mahomes has more playoff wins.. SB appearances.. A better winning percentage.. As many championships.. And more SB MVPs.. Along with more championship game appearances thru the same point in their career.... Does any of that count? Also I believe Tom was the beneficiary of cheating.. But im sure that doesn't count since u root for that team

[Tea10]

Originally Posted by kcroyalsfan8515

Regardless of numbers they did give out MVPs in those years.... Thru 1st 8 years I believe Mahomes has 2...Brady had 1

That isn't what I'm arguing for at all. I'm arguing against TJ now saying multiple times that today's NFL is similar or roughly equivalent to the early 2000s in terms of passing.

The league wide rating in 2024 and currently 2025 is 92.3

The league wide rating from 2001 to 2006 was ~79 on average.

That's a 16-17% increase. Interceptions are 30% lower. Passing TDs% is up 12%. The completion rate in 2024/2025 was/is 65.3% where as it was literally sub 60% until 2007 hit. Every single season.

Mahomes deserves his MVPs. It's a media award though, Jordan/LeBron/Brady coulda shoulda won more, I personally don't care as much about all-pros and MVPs as others do. Pro Bowls already became a joke long ago, MVP isn't but it sort of is due to voters fatigue and the fact its voted on by a bunch of bum writers who don't even know the game half the time.

For example, Kay Adams had an MVP vote. Has one this year too.

Bruschi might have had an MVP vote while Brady was still playing, Ben Volin is a low IQ troll for a Boston newspaper, he has had votes and has anotehr this year. Diana Russini? Is what it is. The more MVPs you have the harder it is to win another, voter fatigue. Rodgers somehow has 4.

[kcroyalsfan8515]

Originally Posted by Tea10

That isn't what I'm arguing for at all. I'm arguing against TJ now saying multiple times that today's NFL is similar or roughly equivalent to the early 2000s in terms of passing.

The league wide rating in 2024 and currently 2025 is 92.3

The league wide rating from 2001 to 2006 was ~79 on average.

That's a 16-17% increase. Interceptions are 30% lower. Passing TDs% is up 12%. The completion rate in 2024/2025 was/is 65.3% where as it was literally sub 60% until 2007 hit. Every single season.

Mahomes deserves his MVPs. It's a media award though, Jordan/LeBron/Brady coulda shoulda won more, I personally don't care as much about all-pros and MVPs as others do. Pro Bowls already became a joke long ago, MVP isn't but it sort of is due to voters fatigue and the fact its voted on by a bunch of bum writers who don't even know the game half the time.

For example, Kay Adams had an MVP vote. Has one this year too.

Bruschi might have had an MVP vote while Brady was still playing, Ben Volin is a low IQ troll for a Boston newspaper, he has had votes and has anotehr this year. Diana Russini? Is what it is. The more MVPs you have the harder it is to win another, voter fatigue. Rodgers somehow has 4.

Seems like the defense has corrected back... It's harder to pass now then when Mahomes came into the league because of the way defense is being played... My point is both dudes are all time.. We will see where it lands.. Enjoy watching greatness.. Doesn't change how great Brady is.

[Bosoxfan5990]

Stop clogging up this thread with Brady v. Mahomes. There’s a thread for that.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1548058

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by kcroyalsfan8515

Lol...im sure if Brady had more u would use that argument....

I honestly don't even know how many (season) MVPs Brady has and I honestly don't give a crap. Back when Brady started, they didn't have the whole "NFL AWARDS SHOW!!!" like they do now. The MVP was something that was casually announced in the middle of SportsCenter. "Oh, and before we transition to hockey, congratulations to Kurt Warner who won the NFL MVP.... and in other news..."

Do you think Lamar Jackson is as good as Patrick Mahomes?

Originally Posted by kcroyalsfan8515

I believe Mahomes has more playoff wins.. SB appearances.. A better winning percentage.. As many championships.. And more SB MVPs.. Along with more championship game appearances thru the same point in their career....

Enjoy saying the above while you can because, at this point in his career, Tom Brady took a MAJOR step forward. Right now, Mahomes seems to be regressing.

Brady is about to get the best pass catcher he ever played with and his numbers are going to skyrocket. Mahomes is about to lose the best pass catcher he ever played with. Stay tuned to see how it impacts him.

Originally Posted by kcroyalsfan8515

Does any of that count?

Does it "count"? Of course it does. But when comparing GOATs, you look at the whole picture. So while all of the above "counts", it doesn't surpass what Brady did.

Originally Posted by kcroyalsfan8515

Also I believe Tom was the beneficiary of cheating.. But im sure that doesn't count since u root for that team

LOL!! Yeah, and Mahomes was the benficiary of a fixed League that had every single referee defend the Kingdom.

[Tea10]

Originally Posted by kcroyalsfan8515

Seems like the defense has corrected back... It's harder to pass now then when Mahomes came into the league because of the way defense is being played... My point is both dudes are all time.. We will see where it lands.. Enjoy watching greatness.. Doesn't change how great Brady is.

Let me be clear here, responding to you, TJ, everyone. I already made it clear but, I didn't know if that "have the cake" comment was directed at me so, but this might be a long post so bear with me:

I appreciate greatness. I like Mahomes. To me, he has been the #1 QB in the league since his psuedo-rookie year in 2018. I don't care if Lamar won an MVP, subjectively and objectively you take Mahomes 1st overall in a hypothetical expansion draft, you take him to start one game for your team.

He is already a HoF. He is in my top 3 QBs all-time already, top 5 at worst. I agree that he has had the best start to his career out of any QB ever, I think Brady is close and arguably right there though.

Because of the era change. That is what I have been arguing and I'm not sure how anyone could disagree that there was a clear and distinct era change from 90s-early 2000s to a rule-change point in time starting around 2006-2007. The numbers bear this out, clearly. So obviously schemes and tendencies change year to year, across time, but I don't think defenses have suddenly got way better. They're tending to take away big plays, maybe running is a bit up. The ball starts further up the field now, probably the 30-32 yard line instead of the 20-22 and then ~23-25 (rough numbers) as kickoff rules changed.

So in terms of accolades and numbers, yes Mahomes has had the best start. But Brady also started in a different era effectively. It has nothing to do with being insecure about another man's legacy, I don't live vicariously through anyone else. But I just believe that is the truth and correct analysis. 2001-2006 was a different league than 2018-2023 (to present).

----------------------

Marino threw for 48 passing TDs in 1984, his rookie season. He broke 40 again in 1986. Warner hit 41 with the greatest show on turf in 1999. Manning got to 49 in 2004, no one hit 50 until Brady did it in 2007. Coinciding with rule changes and a more offensive league.

Those were the only 40+ passing TD seasons from 1932 to 2006 and that was the first 50 bomb ever in 2007.

Then in 2011-2014 there were four 40 passing TD seasons in a row. One being Manning's 55 record. Then there have been 6 more up until last season. Mahomes having two of them, and dropping 50 in his rookie year which is obviously Marino esque and impressive. The point being, we went from 4 total from the entire NFL history, let's narrow down to 80s to 2006. To then 11 seasons from 2007 to 2024.

And I'll be consistent and intellectually honest, I believe QB talent is one significant variable. Marino did it twice in the 80s. Warner with a great scheme and offense in 99. And Manning did it once in 2004. The 2010s were filled with the best QB talent we've ever seen from -Brady/Brees/Manning/Rodgers into Mahomes.

But once again, the rules obviously changed significantly. We can look at passing yards, rating, TD/INT ratio, etc. They changed and it couldn't be more obvious in the stats/numbers. Again, 4x count from 1970 to 2006. And 11x count from 2007 to 2024. There you go. I didn't come here to discuss this, and that's my final post on the matter.

[kcroyalsfan8515]

Originally Posted by Tea10

Let me be clear here, responding to you, TJ, everyone. I already made it clear but, I didn't know if that "have the cake" comment was directed at me so, but this might be a long post so bear with me:

I appreciate greatness. I like Mahomes. To me, he has been the #1 QB in the league since his psuedo-rookie year in 2018. I don't care if Lamar won an MVP, subjectively and objectively you take Mahomes 1st overall in a hypothetical expansion draft, you take him to start one game for your team.

He is already a HoF. He is in my top 3 QBs all-time already, top 5 at worst. I agree that he has had the best start to his career out of any QB ever, I think Brady is close and arguably right there though.

Because of the era change. That is what I have been arguing and I'm not sure how anyone could disagree that there was a clear and distinct era change from 90s-early 2000s to a rule-change point in time starting around 2006-2007. The numbers bear this out, clearly. So obviously schemes and tendencies change year to year, across time, but I don't think defenses have suddenly got way better. They're tending to take away big plays, maybe running is a bit up. The ball starts further up the field now, probably the 30-32 yard line instead of the 20-22 and then ~23-25 (rough numbers) as kickoff rules changed.

So in terms of accolades and numbers, yes Mahomes has had the best start. But Brady also started in a different era effectively. It has nothing to do with being insecure about another man's legacy, I don't live vicariously through anyone else. But I just believe that is the truth and correct analysis. 2001-2006 was a different league than 2018-2023 (to present).

----------------------

Marino threw for 48 passing TDs in 1984, his rookie season. He broke 40 again in 1986. Warner hit 41 with the greatest show on turf in 1999. Manning got to 49 in 2004, no one hit 50 until Brady did it in 2007. Coinciding with rule changes and a more offensive league.

Those were the only 40+ passing TD seasons from 1932 to 2006 and that was the first 50 bomb ever in 2007.

Then in 2011-2014 there were four 40 passing TD seasons in a row. One being Manning's 55 record. Then there have been 6 more up until last season. Mahomes having two of them, and dropping 50 in his rookie year which is obviously Marino esque and impressive. The point being, we went from 4 total from the entire NFL history, let's narrow down to 80s to 2006. To then 11 seasons from 2007 to 2024.

And I'll be consistent and intellectually honest, I believe QB talent is one significant variable. Marino did it twice in the 80s. Warner with a great scheme and offense in 99. And Manning did it once in 2004. The 2010s were filled with the best QB talent we've ever seen from -Brady/Brees/Manning/Rodgers into Mahomes.

But once again, the rules obviously changed significantly. We can look at passing yards, rating, TD/INT ratio, etc. They changed and it couldn't be more obvious in the stats/numbers. Again, 4x count from 1970 to 2006. And 11x count from 2007 to 2024. There you go. I didn't come here to discuss this, and that's my final post on the matter.

Your points seem fair to me.. Apologies for not going back and reading all your messages and not really understanding what was being discussed