MLB Heading To A Lockout

[JRX]

Originally Posted by holygrail22

Well, when you already have a very favorable position why would you ask for things to change? Easy to convince outside observers that it must be the other side’s fault. But just a little bit of critical thinking and that falls apart

Also - owners are demanding 14 team playoff in addition to what else has been mentioned

Even easier when you have your own network to push out your propaganda 24/7 and people are dumb enough to watch it.

[holygrail22]

The O/U on season start date should be May 1st at this point. Owners will gleefully sacrifice all of April because it’s the worst month for their margins (especially so when you remove Opening Day from the equation because it’s now in May)

[premium1981]

Originally Posted by kon jelly

Lol you really need to meet former MLB players to see how they live. Sure the 1% of them get uber-wealthy, but the majority do not.

I don't understand this mindset. You are talking average MLBer? So 3-4 year career I'm assuming? Why are they supposed to make enough money to live on the rest of their lives? Why is it not ok to play for a few years, make a few hundred thousand dollars and then move on when they aren't good enough any more? The way I see it, that is what the rest of the country has to do. Work 30, 40, or 50 years to retire. But everyone here cheerleading for the "little man" in baseball thinks they need enough to live on for the rest of the lives for some reason. Their lives do not end when their career ends. They have decades to keep working if they need to. I'm not saying that they should make minimum wage, but they make a very nice salary at the league minimum.

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Im all for it. Players should go play in other leagues, in other countries. See how the pay, branding/sponsorship, conditions, etc are. They will come crawling back!

I want MLB, but I actually think it would be really cool to see some of our superstars playing in other leagues. I would love to see the competition comparison and see how something like that played out. Minus the no MLB thing.

[yanksfan1]

MLBPA just announced a fully staffed training facility for players in AZ during the lockout, all you autograph hounds just might be getting the Super Bowl of autograph times

[premium1981]

Originally Posted by holygrail22

Well, when you already have a very favorable position why would you ask for things to change? Easy to convince outside observers that it must be the other side’s fault. But just a little bit of critical thinking and that falls apart

Also - owners are demanding 14 team playoff in addition to what else has been mentioned

Everyone had a favorable position. And yes, I am aware of the expanded playoffs. I don't consider 1 request to be a list.

[yanksfan1]

Originally Posted by premium1981

I want MLB, but I actually think it would be really cool to see some of our superstars playing in other leagues. I would love to see the competition comparison and see how something like that played out. Minus the no MLB thing.

Would be a great way to try to index the level of competitiveness NPB/KBO are compared to MLB

[dev6015]

Originally Posted by premium1981

What changes did they request to what was already in place? I'm looking for an actual list so I can compare to the players. Here's a hint: You won't be able to make a list. Why? Because, once again, it's the players making all of the demands.

I'm gonna post this list below, then you need to take the L and move on. Hopefully your next point will be slightly more informed.

- Expand playoffs - worth $100MM in total of new revenue with no share to players
- Patches on uniforms - worth $5MM or so per team in total of new revenue with no share to players
- Massively increase penalties for exceeding the Competitive Balance Tax - effectively instituting a hard salary cap
- Not even more the Competitive Balance Tax from what it was set at in 2016 (in which time inflation has increased about 20%)
- Further cutting minor league players - in fairness, that has been taken off the table

You can lick the owner's boots all you want, but you can't consider yourself a baseball fan if you think the game is better with the owners' rule set than that of the players.

[premium1981]

Originally Posted by JRX

Even easier when you have your own network to push out your propaganda 24/7 and people are dumb enough to watch it.

Or when players are pushing their own propaganda 24/7 and people are dumb enough to read it. Remember the whole "for the integrity of the game" thing?

[holygrail22]

Originally Posted by premium1981

I don't understand this mindset. You are talking average MLBer? So 3-4 year career I'm assuming? Why are they supposed to make enough money to live on the rest of their lives? Why is it not ok to play for a few years, make a few hundred thousand dollars and then move on when they aren't good enough any more? The way I see it, that is what the rest of the country has to do. Work 30, 40, or 50 years to retire. But everyone here cheerleading for the "little man" in baseball thinks they need enough to live on for the rest of the lives for some reason. Their lives do not end when their career ends. They have decades to keep working if they need to. I'm not saying that they should make minimum wage, but they make a very nice salary at the league minimum.

You’re forgetting what a professional athlete has had to sacrifice, by necessity, to get to where they are. I work for one of the largest professional services firms in the world and all I needed was a college degree and a summer internship. Professional athletes need experience from the time they are children. Experience that requires an incredible time commitment that can come at the sacrifice of personal pursuits, educational excellence, and other things we are “normal people” take for granted. Don’t forget to commitment of parents/family as these athletes grow up - and how many athletes use their fortune to give back to the ones who enabled them to get to where they are

No one is arguing 3-4 years of mediocre MLB time should set you up for life. But consider the lifelong commitment followed by the should-be-illegal wages of the minor leagues into MAYBE a promotion to the majors that isn’t guaranteed to last longer than a day

People who have to work 30, 40, 50 years to retire did not have to train for their job from childhood. Similarly, they do not generate as much revenue for their employer

These discussions require nuance

[holygrail22]

Originally Posted by yanksfan1

Would be a great way to try to index the level of competitiveness NPB/KBO are compared to MLB

Generally speaking I think those two leagues specifically have been classified somewhere around AAA, maybe a little more or a little less depending on the talent pool any given season

[premium1981]

Originally Posted by dev6015

I'm gonna post this list below, then you need to take the L and move on. Hopefully your next point will be slightly more informed.

- Expand playoffs - worth $100MM in total of new revenue with no share to players
- Patches on uniforms - worth $5MM or so per team in total of new revenue with no share to players
- Massively increase penalties for exceeding the Competitive Balance Tax - effectively instituting a hard salary cap
- Not even more the Competitive Balance Tax from what it was set at in 2016 (in which time inflation has increased about 20%)
- Further cutting minor league players - in fairness, that has been taken off the table

You can lick the owner's boots all you want, but you can't consider yourself a baseball fan if you think the game is better with the owners' rule set than that of the players.

YAY! First person to actually list something.

-Expanded playoffs: So you don't think player's get extra revenue in the playoffs? You might want to relook at that. Its a win for both sides. The players want a competitive balance right?

-Patches on uniforms. Who gives a crap. That is coming now or later and I consider it irrelevant. If anything, it will be pushed to offset the other demands the players are making. Just look at other sports.

-CBT. Once again, the players want the integrity of the game and competition to be the points of concern. So let's take that away. How does Cohen spending $400 million on the Mets make competition more equal? Seems to be that the cap actually helps what the players are wanting. Or is it not about competition and the integrity of the game? Is it actually about the players wanting more money?

-This one fits with the above one if I understand what you are saying. The ceiling? See above. Are you really talking about inflation as a concern for the players? Afraid the $30 million players can't buy milk since its gone up?

-The minor league cuts was a direct response to the other moronic requests made by the players.

You can call me names if you wish, and I will continue to "lick the boots" of whomever is in the right. For these negotiations, its the owners. I'm not a mindless sheep. If the balance shifts I have no problem sticking it to the owners. But they aren't the problem right now. I want to watch baseball and the players demands are the sole reason why we are not currently watching baseball.

[kon jelly]

Originally Posted by premium1981

I don't understand this mindset. You are talking average MLBer? So 3-4 year career I'm assuming? Why are they supposed to make enough money to live on the rest of their lives? Why is it not ok to play for a few years, make a few hundred thousand dollars and then move on when they aren't good enough any more? The way I see it, that is what the rest of the country has to do. Work 30, 40, or 50 years to retire. But everyone here cheerleading for the "little man" in baseball thinks they need enough to live on for the rest of the lives for some reason. Their lives do not end when their career ends. They have decades to keep working if they need to. I'm not saying that they should make minimum wage, but they make a very nice salary at the league minimum.

Who the hell said that??? I was responding to someone saying that MLB players wouldn't even know how to get to a Kroger because they're so out of touch. Are you just making up arguments to have with yourself?

[premium1981]

Originally Posted by holygrail22

You’re forgetting what a professional athlete has had to sacrifice, by necessity, to get to where they are. I work for one of the largest professional services firms in the world and all I needed was a college degree and a summer internship. Professional athletes need experience from the time they are children. Experience that requires an incredible time commitment that can come at the sacrifice of personal pursuits, educational excellence, and other things we are “normal people” take for granted. Don’t forget to commitment of parents/family as these athletes grow up - and how many athletes use their fortune to give back to the ones who enabled them to get to where they are

No one is arguing 3-4 years of mediocre MLB time should set you up for life. But consider the lifelong commitment followed by the should-be-illegal wages of the minor leagues into MAYBE a promotion to the majors that isn’t guaranteed to last longer than a day

People who have to work 30, 40, 50 years to retire did not have to train for their job from childhood. Similarly, they do not generate as much revenue for their employer

These discussions require nuance

I'm not forgetting anything, I understand completely what they go through. I'm not dismissing their achievements or the work that got them there. I'm saying that there is life outside of baseball. Some are talking like there isn't. Everyone does not need to leave the game a millionaire. You can be forced out at 30 years old and still have a 25 year career as a doctor if you choose to go back to school. If I cared enough to search and quote, I could find hundreds of posts, tweets, comments, etc about how much higher the league minimum should be. No it shouldn't. Be better and you will be paid more. There is no shortage of dollars in MLB. If you are good you get paid. That's life. Everyone doesn't get a trophy and everyone doesn't deserve to be paid millions to play this game for a couple of years.

[premium1981]

Originally Posted by kon jelly

Who the hell said that???

Most people who want the league minimum raised. Everyone just phrases it differently and puts their own spin on it.

[kon jelly]

Originally Posted by premium1981

Most people who want the league minimum raised. Everyone just phrases it differently and puts their own spin on it.

Literally no one has said that. No one thinks every average MLB player should be set for life for having made it to the bigs.

[holygrail22]

Originally Posted by premium1981

I'm not forgetting anything, I understand completely what they go through. I'm not dismissing their achievements or the work that got them there. I'm saying that there is life outside of baseball. Some are talking like there isn't. Everyone does not need to leave the game a millionaire. You can be forced out at 30 years old and still have a 25 year career as a doctor if you choose to go back to school. If I cared enough to search and quote, I could find hundreds of posts, tweets, comments, etc about how much higher the league minimum should be. No it shouldn't. Be better and you will be paid more. There is no shortage of dollars in MLB. If you are good you get paid. That's life. Everyone doesn't get a trophy and everyone doesn't deserve to be paid millions to play this game for a couple of years.

The way the system works now, players do not get paid to the level of their performance for their first SIX seasons. Saying that if you play well you will get what you deserve is a fallacy

[Silent George]

Originally Posted by premium1981

What changes did they request to what was already in place? I'm looking for an actual list so I can compare to the players. Here's a hint: You won't be able to make a list. Why? Because, once again, it's the players making all of the demands.

everyone sees the absurd logic of this right?

1) you know the logic is just plain bad right? You make 9 cents an hour and go to your boss and ask for a raise, and the boss counters with 9 cents an hour, and premium says "whoa, only one person is making demands here, so THEY are the bad guy!" makes zero sense for a rational argument, right? Everyone ELSE gets this?

2)You all know that the owners do have demands, don't you? You've heard about the 14 team playoffs and the stiffer luxury tax penalties right?

3)And further more a demand to stay the same is STILL a demand. So when the league says they aren't negotiating on core issues, that's still a demand, that the core issues that heavily favor the league stay the same.

I DEMAND YOU STOP CHEATING ON ME.

No, that's non-negotiable = I demand to cheat on you.

What this is is people sitting on their couches deciding how much money is good enough for the players from their world view. It doesn't matter when you show that relative to league revenue it's dropping. It doesn't matter that the minimum wage is below all the other sports. It doesn't matter that the majority of players make minimum wage, far far far more than those other sports. All that matters is that people from the outside have decided they can put a cap on what you're worth, in the same way that you might be underpaid making $75,000 a year, working 60 ours a week, and bringing in 20X your salary for your company - whereas a person living on Haitian income might simply decide you make way too much to complain about it, so shut up.

Everyone else gets this, right? That baseball players are the actual product. They aren't just employees, they are the actual item being sold, and that it's reasonable for baseball players to feel cheated when they are losing ground on revenue splits year over year even though they ARE the reason revenue exists? Everyone else (maybe not PeWe) that keeps up with this stuff and is more than just a fly by WHY CANT THEY MEET IN THE MIDDLE sort of fan understands the economics of this?

[SearchPatrol]

Originally Posted by premium1981

YAY! First person to actually list something.



-Patches on uniforms. Who gives a crap. That is coming now or later and I consider it irrelevant. If anything, it will be pushed to offset the other demands the players are making. Just look at other sports.

Many players give a crap. And the numbers will be closer to 8-15 million per team per year. Take 40%, give to the players and this is over.

[premium1981]

Originally Posted by holygrail22

The way the system works now, players do not get paid to the level of their performance for their first SIX seasons. Saying that if you play well you will get what you deserve is a fallacy

It's also a fallacy to say that can be fairly fixed. If its all about fairness they should agree on unguaranteed contracts so players like Pujols don't make the salaries they make. The system is set up to reward success. It actually pays off better in the long run this way. Players make the larger salaries later in their careers. If its changed to pay at the front, middle, and end of the careers all together league payrolls will have to double.

If the players were successful in getting the high dollars at young ages it would push the greats out of the game sooner. It also prevents some of the young flash-in-the-pan kids from getting gigantic salaries then showing afterwards that it was a mistake.

The bottom line is there is no perfect system. But the one that is currently being used works. It just needed some tweaks towards the players. And I would have preached that just as hard. But their demands pushed me hard and fast to the other side.

[Silent George]

Originally Posted by premium1981

Or when players are pushing their own propaganda 24/7 and people are dumb enough to read it. Remember the whole "for the integrity of the game" thing?

the idiocy of this is assuming of the 1500 players that are out there, each with different goals, opinions, and levels of fandom, that when a player talks about integrity of the game they MUST be lying.

In this case the player was one under contract through the life of the entire next CBA, and wouldn't be getting one cent more no matter what, but that player is still lying and doesn't care about integrity because they are a player, or some other sort of nonsense.

What a strange concept, that a player might care and be passionate about the integrity of their craft. Everyone remember that insanity? ha! ha! ha!

NO ALL PLAYERS ARE TOO RICH AND TOO GREEDY AND THAT'S MY CEMENTED WORLD VIEW OF THE SPORT I LOVE.

[premium1981]

Originally Posted by Silent George

1) you know the logic is just plain bad right? You make 9 cents an hour and go to your boss and ask for a raise, and the boss counters with 9 cents an hour, and premium says "whoa, only one person is making demands here, so THEY are the bad guy!" makes zero sense for a rational argument, right? Everyone ELSE gets this?

This is just plain ridiculous. Not exactly the same coming from millionaires. As you said before, we will just have to agree to disagree.

[holygrail22]

Robert Murray:

“The MLBPA has organized a “fully staffed” stadium and facility for players to train in Mesa, AZ, according to sources familiar with the situation.”

I would happily watch an ad-supported stream or pay $4.99/month like a Twitch sub if I could see stars in sim games, bullpen sessions, batting practice, etc

[mwash1983]

Heyman is saying Manfred is considering hiring scab players, good luck drawing 150 to a stadium.

[premium1981]

Originally Posted by Silent George

What a strange concept, that a player might care and be passionate about the integrity of their craft.

No one said the players didn't care. What people have said, including myself, is that these negotiations are not about the integrity of the game. It isn't. You say that, and then literally every single rebuttal you have is about money. Literally, all of them.

[holygrail22]

Originally Posted by premium1981

This is just plain ridiculous. Not exactly the same coming from millionaires. As you said before, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Relativity matters, but again that seems very lost on you. Everything is in a vacuum according to you - otherwise you’d be able to see that the side you accuse of demanding the moon would STILL likely be at a disadvantage if they got everything they wanted